Brett C
Frontier
BioShock, Halo 3 not "next-gen"
- Thread starter Brett C
- Start date
It was interesting: here is a precursor to that article: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6937058.stm
It suggests that Outsider is around 2 years from completion. If the current speed of game development and the advances in gameplay are anything to go by then Outsider is going to be a very different beastie to what is currently implied through the trailer and the likes.
Bioshock was a totally over hyped disappointment. Pretty yes but revolutionary? Definitely not. It is fundamentally an FPS shooter and followed the expected linearity and predictability that become used to in this genre (as an aside - what was up with the rubbish widescreen support and no antialiasing???). I think the disparity in the 'Next Generation' definition occurs when developers and producers start to use it as a catch phrase. Why is it a next generation game? Is it because it has significantly advanced graphics? Is it because the environment is significantly more interactive? Is it because it is running on a 'next gen' console? Following on from this should we define a game as next gen because it conforms to all of these things or is it acceptable if it conforms to one or two of these things.
Personally I am inclined to agree with David on this one, the only honest way to define next generation is when the gameplay itself is revolutionised and he is dead right in saying that the likes of Bioshock and Halo 3 are just not there. Bioshock and Halo 3 are still fundamentally Wolfenstein 3D and Halo Multi player is still fundamentally multi player Doom. Yes the graphics are pretty and yes there are flashier and better weapons and environments within which to run around but the fundamental gamplay has not evolved.
From a gaming perspective does this concern me? Yes is many ways it does. Admittedly I play games enough so that my better and far more attractive half still gets extremely fed up with me. I have reached a point where I have not found a game that particularly engages me. There is not the 'new and fresh' feeling that I got from firing up Frontier or Elite or for that matter when I first got hooked on Battlefield 2. Recently I have tried Bioshock, World in Conflict, Command & Conquer, Dirt (rally driving), ET Quake Wars,
Test Drive Unlimited, Civ 4 and a few others that I can't remember and none of them have achieved the level of addiction that I got from Frontier and that I at times get from Battlefield 2142. They just don't have the feeling of immersion anymore, and certainly fall short on the replay value.
Games that did grab me and hold on for a fairly long time? Final Fantasy VII kept me hooked for a seriously long time as did GTA 3, both of which were in my opinion real revolutions in gameplay, environment and production values.
It's been an unfortunately long time since I was last engaged in a game and I wait in interest for one that will provide a similar bother to my ever suffering lady
It suggests that Outsider is around 2 years from completion. If the current speed of game development and the advances in gameplay are anything to go by then Outsider is going to be a very different beastie to what is currently implied through the trailer and the likes.
Bioshock was a totally over hyped disappointment. Pretty yes but revolutionary? Definitely not. It is fundamentally an FPS shooter and followed the expected linearity and predictability that become used to in this genre (as an aside - what was up with the rubbish widescreen support and no antialiasing???). I think the disparity in the 'Next Generation' definition occurs when developers and producers start to use it as a catch phrase. Why is it a next generation game? Is it because it has significantly advanced graphics? Is it because the environment is significantly more interactive? Is it because it is running on a 'next gen' console? Following on from this should we define a game as next gen because it conforms to all of these things or is it acceptable if it conforms to one or two of these things.
Personally I am inclined to agree with David on this one, the only honest way to define next generation is when the gameplay itself is revolutionised and he is dead right in saying that the likes of Bioshock and Halo 3 are just not there. Bioshock and Halo 3 are still fundamentally Wolfenstein 3D and Halo Multi player is still fundamentally multi player Doom. Yes the graphics are pretty and yes there are flashier and better weapons and environments within which to run around but the fundamental gamplay has not evolved.
From a gaming perspective does this concern me? Yes is many ways it does. Admittedly I play games enough so that my better and far more attractive half still gets extremely fed up with me. I have reached a point where I have not found a game that particularly engages me. There is not the 'new and fresh' feeling that I got from firing up Frontier or Elite or for that matter when I first got hooked on Battlefield 2. Recently I have tried Bioshock, World in Conflict, Command & Conquer, Dirt (rally driving), ET Quake Wars,
Test Drive Unlimited, Civ 4 and a few others that I can't remember and none of them have achieved the level of addiction that I got from Frontier and that I at times get from Battlefield 2142. They just don't have the feeling of immersion anymore, and certainly fall short on the replay value.
Games that did grab me and hold on for a fairly long time? Final Fantasy VII kept me hooked for a seriously long time as did GTA 3, both of which were in my opinion real revolutions in gameplay, environment and production values.
It's been an unfortunately long time since I was last engaged in a game and I wait in interest for one that will provide a similar bother to my ever suffering lady
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I agree with Steve completely. I really want to buy a next gen console - but there isn't a single game that I know of (and believe me I've looked) that would justify it. It's really frustrating. I am patiently waiting for the Outsider and Elite IV when it comes out for the PS5! And I really don't mind waiting if these games really are as good as I think they're going to be...
and Elite IV when it comes out for the PS5! And I really don't mind waiting if these games really are as good as I think they're going to be...Current gen
This next gen thing is really getting old fast. Its not a new generation any more it is a current generation and there hasnt been hardly any revolutionary titles.
Revolutionary games are very rare like elite, frontier, civ, populous and GTA3These are games that push the current boundaries that they are in.
There have been some great games on the current gen like mass effect, oblivion, fallout 3, call of duty 4. These are all very good games but what david braben achieved with frontier is miles ahead of any of these games.
The console market is aimed at the casual gamer so they tend to be more arcadie and apeal to a wider audiance but does the PC market have last, current and next gen? Personally i think there are many more must have games on the pc because they tend to be ageless. I still play all of the old total war series and have just started the original fallout again. I still have the original boxed frontier and i will probably keep it all my life as a reminder of the best game ever made.
This next gen thing is really getting old fast. Its not a new generation any more it is a current generation and there hasnt been hardly any revolutionary titles.
Revolutionary games are very rare like elite, frontier, civ, populous and GTA3These are games that push the current boundaries that they are in.
There have been some great games on the current gen like mass effect, oblivion, fallout 3, call of duty 4. These are all very good games but what david braben achieved with frontier is miles ahead of any of these games.
The console market is aimed at the casual gamer so they tend to be more arcadie and apeal to a wider audiance but does the PC market have last, current and next gen? Personally i think there are many more must have games on the pc because they tend to be ageless. I still play all of the old total war series and have just started the original fallout again. I still have the original boxed frontier and i will probably keep it all my life as a reminder of the best game ever made.
I agree with the hardware part. Xbox360, Ps3 is current gen. It's out for 2 to 3 years now. They are on 1/2 to 1/3 of there prim life time till nextgen comes out. xboxIII PS4. Wii is a current alternative gen. Wich complements the other as it offers new HID and different genres and audience like casual. Got Wii and PS3
PC is less fix and nextgen come lot frequenter. Current Gen is Quadcore and DX10.0
Next gen would be Core i7 and DX11. But the PC target platform is Previous current and newgen mixed up. As games support a broad settup from Dx8.1 to DX10.1 some more and some less. PC Games having a multipath. but most aiming at mainstream and that is up to current and previous gen setups.
That the nextgen hardware part.
For nextgen games it's different.
It means a original type of game, Elite once was but that can only be done once wenn the genre is set and introduced to the world. Aiming for originality is very difficult even for professional dev's.
Extend on existing genres or genres wich are forgoten can get a new even original feeling.
Also using of new software tech and featers can be nextgen. Euforia engine in Starwars Force unleashed wich should extend ragdoll. With NPC reactive behavior.
The boost Physics get lately so not feasable features of physics get in range. Like more to fully interactive worlds and full destructive enviorment.
Nextgen in gameplay or with a new HID like Wiimote.
Nextgen as software tech wich put emotion in game for heavy story telling games with some drama. Using face and eye realistic rendering and behavior. Getting top writers on game studio's. To get drama in games. Make gamers get emotional and even cry.
Open free worlds, procedural, non linair story's arent new and arent nextgen, that done before.
Hardware and software bound
Raytracing and Voxel engine are old tech but with larrabee on the horizon get this software solution get the needed compute power on very concurency supporting hardware. Like larrabee with 32 to 64 x86 cores with each 16 vector units. It take time wenn dev's develop game engines and games making use of that. It would be economical interrested as current GPU firms have there GPU a lot less fix funtion. Wenn the whole target platform shift to software computing with massive parralel general purpouse computing also for almost the full GFX pipeline. And I don't mean the unified shaders that part allready is, but the Rob's and TMU to. So beyond the compute shaders they planning in Dx11. Also a standard API like DX HSML for those compute shaders and OpenCL makes that attractive to dev.s. But the biggest problem is that gpgpu using middleware especialy for Physics are chip firm bound. Market leader Havok is iNtel and bound to CPU exluding GPGPU, till Larabee get out. PhysX sdk is nV bound excluding ATI(AMD) where the AMD CPU branch went for havok. Makes heavy physics less attractive for dev's to fully support. Because there is still a need of multy path software solution and a default fall back to reach a large audience.
So nexthgen Hardware and software infleunce each other a lot.
And depends what definition they have in mind.
From Elite point of view the hardware has got a lot of generations further, that has influence on what can be done. Games got a lot bigger and heavier and this genre is one of the more complex once wich are also more CPU dependand then the popular FPS genre and others.
The latest feature heavy one. Derek smart independant attempt with universal combat is a example of a elite like tryout. X3 R and TC and X series are a arcade kind where X3TC is fresh out. Not much chioce no AAA title for a long while.
With some genre extendable semi originality. Dev's could mix genres. But Universal combat done that. But doing something done before a lot better is also fresh. Space fighter capitalship simulation planetside naval and FPS gameplay in one. Wich is a big concept. Wich sounds like featurecreep. But because it's a low budged independand project and heavy aimd at some simulation focus. And a dev with bad feedback handling. Vey unneciserry heavy UI wich scare a lot of harcore gamers away and made them feel like casual.
X3 TC dito but not so extreem need more time and UI after thought.
What I like to see as nextgen for this genre is.
Merge Mass effect FPSRPG style Add FPS boarding part. Aliens marines And capitalship command gameplay done right. Startrek fleet command or bridge commander With complex trade economy X3.
And handeling of fleet Homeworld.
And very interactive redfraction Physics on full scale.
So a Mass effect
Alian space marines
Universal combat
X3 TC
Homeworld
redfration
mix of a gme.
With full destructable ships and planet side destructive enviorment generated in realtime Redfracrion. For ships hull using the Physics cloths feature wenn with heavy dampening atribute and some, you get sheet metal physics. And mixed with deformation.
The problem I have I don't know elite my first game in this genre was Privateer. Long time ago. The next was Freelancer and then to Xseries.
PC is less fix and nextgen come lot frequenter. Current Gen is Quadcore and DX10.0
Next gen would be Core i7 and DX11. But the PC target platform is Previous current and newgen mixed up. As games support a broad settup from Dx8.1 to DX10.1 some more and some less. PC Games having a multipath. but most aiming at mainstream and that is up to current and previous gen setups.
That the nextgen hardware part.
For nextgen games it's different.
It means a original type of game, Elite once was but that can only be done once wenn the genre is set and introduced to the world. Aiming for originality is very difficult even for professional dev's.
Extend on existing genres or genres wich are forgoten can get a new even original feeling.
Also using of new software tech and featers can be nextgen. Euforia engine in Starwars Force unleashed wich should extend ragdoll. With NPC reactive behavior.
The boost Physics get lately so not feasable features of physics get in range. Like more to fully interactive worlds and full destructive enviorment.
Nextgen in gameplay or with a new HID like Wiimote.
Nextgen as software tech wich put emotion in game for heavy story telling games with some drama. Using face and eye realistic rendering and behavior. Getting top writers on game studio's. To get drama in games. Make gamers get emotional and even cry.
Open free worlds, procedural, non linair story's arent new and arent nextgen, that done before.
Hardware and software bound
Raytracing and Voxel engine are old tech but with larrabee on the horizon get this software solution get the needed compute power on very concurency supporting hardware. Like larrabee with 32 to 64 x86 cores with each 16 vector units. It take time wenn dev's develop game engines and games making use of that. It would be economical interrested as current GPU firms have there GPU a lot less fix funtion. Wenn the whole target platform shift to software computing with massive parralel general purpouse computing also for almost the full GFX pipeline. And I don't mean the unified shaders that part allready is, but the Rob's and TMU to. So beyond the compute shaders they planning in Dx11. Also a standard API like DX HSML for those compute shaders and OpenCL makes that attractive to dev.s. But the biggest problem is that gpgpu using middleware especialy for Physics are chip firm bound. Market leader Havok is iNtel and bound to CPU exluding GPGPU, till Larabee get out. PhysX sdk is nV bound excluding ATI(AMD) where the AMD CPU branch went for havok. Makes heavy physics less attractive for dev's to fully support. Because there is still a need of multy path software solution and a default fall back to reach a large audience.
So nexthgen Hardware and software infleunce each other a lot.
And depends what definition they have in mind.
From Elite point of view the hardware has got a lot of generations further, that has influence on what can be done. Games got a lot bigger and heavier and this genre is one of the more complex once wich are also more CPU dependand then the popular FPS genre and others.
The latest feature heavy one. Derek smart independant attempt with universal combat is a example of a elite like tryout. X3 R and TC and X series are a arcade kind where X3TC is fresh out. Not much chioce no AAA title for a long while.
With some genre extendable semi originality. Dev's could mix genres. But Universal combat done that. But doing something done before a lot better is also fresh. Space fighter capitalship simulation planetside naval and FPS gameplay in one. Wich is a big concept. Wich sounds like featurecreep. But because it's a low budged independand project and heavy aimd at some simulation focus. And a dev with bad feedback handling. Vey unneciserry heavy UI wich scare a lot of harcore gamers away and made them feel like casual.
X3 TC dito but not so extreem need more time and UI after thought.
What I like to see as nextgen for this genre is.
Merge Mass effect FPSRPG style Add FPS boarding part. Aliens marines And capitalship command gameplay done right. Startrek fleet command or bridge commander With complex trade economy X3.
And handeling of fleet Homeworld.
And very interactive redfraction Physics on full scale.
So a Mass effect
Alian space marines
Universal combat
X3 TC
Homeworld
redfration
mix of a gme.
With full destructable ships and planet side destructive enviorment generated in realtime Redfracrion. For ships hull using the Physics cloths feature wenn with heavy dampening atribute and some, you get sheet metal physics. And mixed with deformation.
The problem I have I don't know elite my first game in this genre was Privateer. Long time ago. The next was Freelancer and then to Xseries.
Wonderful. So, at least another two years before we even hear a peep from Elite IV.
I agree with David and you guys on this one. I don't think we have seen the next generation of games yet. Games like. Call of duty 4&5, bioshock etc..are impressive in their gameplay and graphics (cod4&5 are fantastic games) but are still very much this generation. What next gen will be is anyones guess, for my mind graphics will need another big jump like doom or ahem... Elite
It may be something along the visual (3d??) or controls like the wii. But it's anyones guess what will come next.
It may be something along the visual (3d??) or controls like the wii. But it's anyones guess what will come next.
Next gen
I think many of this generation’s games are hurt by the effect of the mass market expectations. Where the older hardcore fans were fans of gaming as a medium for creativity and originality the new game hardcore base is about grouping mates in room and letting them shoot each other.
This is noting new for those growing up with Doom, Quake and later things such as Counter-Strike. I think Bioshock took a risk in making a single player FPS in this current climate and although not original it did stand out as a brave move.
It does take some special people/developers to change a market to keep it from going stale, however, it takes risks that some companies cannot afford; and that is a real shame. That is possibly why we are seeing now an indie rebirth with games such a Braid making headlines.
I think some games which really have changed my gaming expectations include:
Monkey Island (funny in games is HARD)
Morrowind
Shadow of the Colossus
GTA3
FFVII
ICO
Fahrenheit (to an extent)
I think many of this generation’s games are hurt by the effect of the mass market expectations. Where the older hardcore fans were fans of gaming as a medium for creativity and originality the new game hardcore base is about grouping mates in room and letting them shoot each other.
This is noting new for those growing up with Doom, Quake and later things such as Counter-Strike. I think Bioshock took a risk in making a single player FPS in this current climate and although not original it did stand out as a brave move.
It does take some special people/developers to change a market to keep it from going stale, however, it takes risks that some companies cannot afford; and that is a real shame. That is possibly why we are seeing now an indie rebirth with games such a Braid making headlines.
I think some games which really have changed my gaming expectations include:
Monkey Island (funny in games is HARD)
Morrowind
Shadow of the Colossus
GTA3
FFVII
ICO
Fahrenheit (to an extent)
Halo 3
What???
Halo 3 is one of the best shoot em up games ever produced!!!
I've got to admit though that I am looking forward to 'the outsider'
What???
Halo 3 is one of the best shoot em up games ever produced!!!
I've got to admit though that I am looking forward to 'the outsider'
I agree about FF7 - that was an utter gem of a game - I can't believe how many hours I killed on that one. A stunning production that was astoundingly polished. Unfortunately in my opinion it was never surpassed by any of the subsequent series.
What???
Halo 3 is one of the best shoot em up games ever produced!!!
I've got to admit though that I am looking forward to 'the outsider'
I would say:
* Halo 3 is one of the most highest hyped, highest marketed and great high quality level produced third sequel shoot em up games ever!!!
* It's like more of the same thing but done right and aimed at the right audience.
*Offering features that are crusial and of high value for that audience, online and Coöp.
If your looking for orginality or a uniek gameplay twist.
It's not there.
But I have no problem with sequells. I often want more of something good or decent.
But Halo isn't my thing. Lookin out for OFP2 ARMA2
Don't know these games":
- Monkey Island (funny in games is HARD)
- Morrowind
- Shadow of the Colossus
- GTA3
- FFVII
- ICO
- Fahrenheit (to an extent)
Hey dude!!
I am also agree with Steve completely. I am patiently waiting for the Outsider and Elite IV when it comes out for the PS5! And I really don't mind waiting if these games really are as good as I think they're going to be...
I am also agree with Steve completely. I am patiently waiting for the Outsider and Elite IV when it comes out for the PS5! And I really don't mind waiting if these games really are as good as I think they're going to be...
One of the primary reasons that games are now hitting a much wider audience than they ever have before is because they are now social (that and the ever increasing marketing dollars thrown at the medium).
The games I play most are the ones that I can play with my friends. We use a TeamSpeak server for VoIP and generally restrict ourselves to co-op games as the competition scene is a really unfriendly place to be.
The games that have stood the test of time are TrackMania United, Left 4 Dead (I know its not exactly old), and GRAW. GRAW is a dreadful game on so many levels; however the OGR co-op mode it supports makes the game bearable.
As gaming has become much more social in nature, the need for originality or creativity has shifted down a peg or two in terms of priority. Mostly because its fun to kick back with friends and have a laugh. "We make our own stories" as Will Wright would say (or maybe its Sid Mier - one of those two use the phrase a lot).
I think if Outsider doesn't have "social interaction" built into it then it will struggle, and all the revolutionary gameplay and ideas in the world won't help it that much.
At the end of the day, I'm much more interested in a working, well produced, fun game that I can play with my mates than the next revolutionary idea. If a fun game has a great story, or is "best in breed" in a particular area (e.g. Left 4 Dead probably does co-op play better than any other game I've played) then that's a bonus.
Oh yes I did like GRAW.
we have had, before renovaton of the living room, 3PC on a row all with PPU's. Played it with 3 some in Coöp. I got a Black hawk down emersion rush out of it. So cool.
Played also special ageia singleplayer map of GRAW2 wich was very interactive experience. Never encountered before. I wish they did that troughout the whole game. Even if we where restricted to 100mbit LAN play.
Shooting enemies hiding in a wooden hut. shred the wood and the enemie.
M249 was my favorit for that.
In COD4MW I shot enemie trough the roof. But there is no visual penetration. To static for me. But what a emersive singleplayer experience.
Because i have tasted more Physics and interaction in games. I would like to see also some of that in the next gen Elite4.
If it comes in 2011 or later, OpenCL and compute shader would be more common.
And instead using PhysX or Havok, you could used standerised middle ware. Could be havok if LArrabee is out. Or do it inhouse making your own. Just like Crytech did with there crytech2 engine. Some more interaction.
Oh I 'am bit focused on PC gaming.
The future is smarter AI. and more world and object interaction and destruction. With ever on going higher fidelity.
At least for the games that strive for a realistic feel.
Simulation instead abstraction.
For both there is a market.
we have had, before renovaton of the living room, 3PC on a row all with PPU's. Played it with 3 some in Coöp. I got a Black hawk down emersion rush out of it. So cool.
Played also special ageia singleplayer map of GRAW2 wich was very interactive experience. Never encountered before. I wish they did that troughout the whole game. Even if we where restricted to 100mbit LAN play.
Shooting enemies hiding in a wooden hut. shred the wood and the enemie.
M249 was my favorit for that.
In COD4MW I shot enemie trough the roof. But there is no visual penetration. To static for me. But what a emersive singleplayer experience.
Because i have tasted more Physics and interaction in games. I would like to see also some of that in the next gen Elite4.
If it comes in 2011 or later, OpenCL and compute shader would be more common.
And instead using PhysX or Havok, you could used standerised middle ware. Could be havok if LArrabee is out. Or do it inhouse making your own. Just like Crytech did with there crytech2 engine. Some more interaction.
Oh I 'am bit focused on PC gaming.
The future is smarter AI. and more world and object interaction and destruction. With ever on going higher fidelity.
At least for the games that strive for a realistic feel.
Simulation instead abstraction.
For both there is a market.
Eh...
Great free-roaming RPG. Has sequel that is infinitely worse in most aspects save for graphics, ability to poison weapons and NPC schedules.
I agree on that one, funny in games is hard, there have been quite a few games which are very funny MI!,2&3, Day of the Tentacle, Sam & Max (all Lucasarts).
But the truly funny ones are few and far between.
I recommend all of them, Monkey Island has just been re-released, you can get it of steam. well worth every penny.
Guybrush: I got this scar during a mighty struggle.
Pirate: I hope you'v learned to stop picking your nose.
Meathook: You've got a real attitude problem!
Guybrush: Well...you've got a real hair problem!
Meathook: You just don't know when to quit, do you?
Guybrush: Neither did your barber.
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Can't comment on what The Outsider does and doesn't have; but I don't agree with this comment. Games don't NEED to have any kind of multi-player (co-op or otherwise) in order to do be well received and sell a lot of copies.
Mass Effect, BioShock, Assassin's Creed, Batman: AA - these are all games which have been critically acclaimed and sold very well, yet they are all single player only.
TES series has been a huge financial success (poor quality of TES IV notwithstanding, though, TES III will probably outsell it in the long run for this reason), The Witcher, despite being PC only and a debut of it's company also did well enough to warrant a sequel, etc.
If game can generate enough interesting situtations and prolonged attention (as in not being "sit down for three hours, complete, shelf" kind of affair - long, possibly open-ended games or the ones with player choices deeply affecting the gameplay, encouraging subsequent playthroughs spring to mind), online forum might be all the "social interaction" it ever needs. Add good modding capability if you want to be sure.