Progression, Reputation, and why everyone will probably trade all day....

[darkcyd]

Is piracy at all feasible? I'm only in the combat beta and have completed all of the scenarios and I want to do something other than trade.

In a word, no.

You go out and have to stalk a ship which could take 5 min give or take but about the time a trader would get a jump to a star and get to the star.

You now have to interdict, blow his shields and get him to drop his cargo or do it for him. Then you spend time trying to cargo scoop it all up before it disappears. Which by now the trader is sold and repurchased and jumping back.

Now you have 2 get your load (if it was worth keeping) back to a station. This could be further complicated if you are selling stolen goods to a non anarchy black market.


So the trader is making 2 jump trades in the time it took you to take down one target and get back to sell or faster.

The trader is assured a profit of between 700-1100 credits per ton if he's done his homework. so 1400-2200/ ton or more depending on travel time.

You had to deal with the potential failed interdiction, potential failed combat(he gets away), potentially killing your target and thus the stuff you wanted, potentially getting nothing worth taking, and then the hazards of getting stolen goods to the station. The average goods priced dropped seems to be between 2k and 5k/ item although could be paladium which is near 13k/ton. All this plus you are getting a bounty every time you do this.

Bottom line is you make quite a bit less than the trader who ends up with positive rep and no bounty.

 

[Naruchico]

I am seeing a bit of a pattern, its a lot of "well release is just the beginning", which to me is kinda odd, it makes this game sound like early access more than it sounds like a finished product, semi-concerning to think nowadays games are released this way :\ . back on topic, I think someone nailed it on the head, I want a giant space adventure, but it's not like I am asking for skyrim in space, I would just like a little bit of that feeling that I'm semi-noticed, I mean say I repped up the federation all the way to the end of the road....in theory I should stick out a little bit as someone they want to talk to, but its just teletext mission and "thanks, you can now pay us for this really nice ship", its a little bit like working your butt off to get the finger and a demotion.

 

[Valcrow]

In a word, no.

You go out and have to stalk a ship which could take 5 min give or take but about the time a trader would get a jump to a star and get to the star.

You now have to interdict, blow his shields and get him to drop his cargo or do it for him. Then you spend time trying to cargo scoop it all up before it disappears. Which by now the trader is sold and repurchased and jumping back.

Now you have 2 get your load (if it was worth keeping) back to a station. This could be further complicated if you are selling stolen goods to a non anarchy black market.


So the trader is making 2 jump trades in the time it took you to take down one target and get back to sell or faster.

The trader is assured a profit of between 700-1100 credits per ton if he's done his homework. so 1400-2200/ ton or more depending on travel time.

You had to deal with the potential failed interdiction, potential failed combat(he gets away), potentially killing your target and thus the stuff you wanted, potentially getting nothing worth taking, and then the hazards of getting stolen goods to the station. The average goods priced dropped seems to be between 2k and 5k/ item although could be paladium which is near 13k/ton. All this plus you are getting a bounty every time you do this.

Bottom line is you make quite a bit less than the trader who ends up with positive rep and no bounty.

I have to disagree.

You can pirate ships from Nav points, get bounties AND don't get yourself fined with positive rep.

You don't need to stalk your pray, just go to a Nav beacon. lots of pray around.. just find a wanted one. A cargo scanner will help you determine if it's worth forcing their hatch open, but you can just break everyone's hatch if you're a merciless pirate. yaaarrr. No interdiction required which frees up a slot for other useful fun things.

Check your preys weapons, status, faction and bounty. If you deem them worthy to die this day, then proceed to pew pew at his hatch.

Once you're satisfied they're dropped their load. Kill them. (because there's a bounty to be claimed!)

If they drop things worth lots of money scoop them up. You most likely won't have that much cargo space anyways because that's for the working class traders. so pick up only expensive loot.

You've now got yourself a bounty to claim, stolen loot (if you're lucky) and some +rep for taking out scum and stealing their stuff. Dock at a platform rather than a big station to sell your stolen goods if you're not good at stealthing.


Your Cr/hour may not be the same as a traders cr/hour. But your fun/hour will most likely be much higher.

 

[_Flin_]

Why bother interacting with the universe?

We really had a hard time with this idea, but if there isn't any selfish reason to interact we won't, hence why it seems most of us are trading. Don't get me wrong trading is fun, but there is so many people doing it that sometimes I feel like it is the 90% focus of the game, obtaining credits, and the real depth of the game comes from simply that, how credits are moved around. politics mean nothing to us unless it feeds our need for the bigger badder ship. Part of this issue also is there is 400 billion systems, why care about any of the factions when there is literally so much space that it makes them irrelevant, if and area gets too hot for trading I move on, if the prices drop cause of war here, famine there blah blah, I move over where more money can be made.

Why is it all about credits?

After all this conversation we generally came to the consensus that the heart of the problem is the game is about credits, faction, reputation, skill, ship, all irrelevant because credits determines everything, from how you fly, why you fly, and what you fly and that is a major problem. The only way to gain anything in Elite at the moment is credits, which I think is killing a lot of the peoples motivations.

I want to chime in on these two questions.

We are currently running the campaign for an independent Lugh. A player made event, to free Lugh from the Federation and hand it over to the Crimson State. It is a purely fictional setting, some like to roleplay in it to represent the God Lugh, some like to test the background simluation, some like to do missions and do just the usual stuff, but with a bit more sense of purpose.

So why bother? Because it is fun. It is fun to raise the influence of a faction. It is fun to do missions and seeing a civil war coming up. It is mostly your own imagination, how you create a story for your own with the information available. The Civil War Rating of the faction raising. The missions changing from "bring us food" to "bring us non-lethal weapons" to "go and steal some federation military plans". Or delivering stuff to the Crimson State, when suddenly you get the opposite faction actively sabotaing the efforts, by offering counter missions. For some of us this is fun.

Do we have a real incentive for that? No. Nothing that can be counted in credits or stuff or virtual shinies. But we can do everything the game offers while working on that game, it creates a sense of purpose, it creates a living universe.

So here comes the second point. It is not all about credits. First and foremost it is a game and you want to have fun. It is a sandbox. But you need to find the sand for yourself. You need to blaze your own trail. You need to set your own goals. You will currently not have anything like a story, or a defined progression, or a main quest line, or similar. We will see what the story at release brings.

But currently "Blaze your own trail" means "Set your own goals" and "Find your own fun".
If you want to try it, you are invited to head over to Lugh and join the Independence Movement for the Crimson State.
We expect to trigger a civil war by Sunday at the latest. And then there will be even more to do.

 

[darkcyd]

I have to disagree.

You can pirate ships from Nav points, get bounties AND don't get yourself fined with positive rep.

You don't need to stalk your pray, just go to a Nav beacon. lots of pray around.. just find a wanted one. A cargo scanner will help you determine if it's worth forcing their hatch open, but you can just break everyone's hatch if you're a merciless pirate. yaaarrr. No interdiction required which frees up a slot for other useful fun things.

Check your preys weapons, status, faction and bounty. If you deem them worthy to die this day, then proceed to pew pew at his hatch.

Once you're satisfied they're dropped their load. Kill them. (because there's a bounty to be claimed!)

If they drop things worth lots of money scoop them up. You most likely won't have that much cargo space anyways because that's for the working class traders. so pick up only expensive loot.

You've now got yourself a bounty to claim, stolen loot (if you're lucky) and some +rep for taking out scum and stealing their stuff. Dock at a platform rather than a big station to sell your stolen goods if you're not good at stealthing.


Your Cr/hour may not be the same as a traders cr/hour. But your fun/hour will most likely be much higher.

What valcrow says is true, this is the most cr/hr effective way of piracy although when most people think of piracy they would be the bad guys holding up freighters.

And it is also true that even valcrows more effective method is still not going to pay half of what a trader is making in credits/hour.

Really the problem and frustration is that the most dangerous and risky professions have the lowest payouts which is why nobody does them outside of roleplaying and relieving the tedium of trading.

To fix it they need make scooping cargo faster and possibly allow players with high reputation amoungst pirates to somehow sell stolen items for full price. Then we would be in the same ball park.

 

[CATPAIN KIRK]

Why would I gain reputation with a specific faction?

The answer we came to was, nothing, there is absolutely no good reason, but we did come up with some things that would motivate us. Our idea's where: obtaining special decals, being awarded special ships (no cost, you earned it!), better trading prices, or even special trade items(extra special rare goods).

The federal dropship and imperial clipper require standings with their respective factions in order to be bought afaik. There should be more of that just to add some flavour to our choices, but I assume it's coming as more ships are added.

Why isn't there any job specific ships?

Agreed - currently, the lack of specialization means that a lot of ships render each other obsolete.

Why bother interacting with the universe?

That depends on your own goals and playstyle. I've found a corner of space I call home and I set myself the goal of supporting my local faction of choice and increasing its influence.

Why is it all about credits?

For me, it's not - see above.

I think everyone is looking to feel unique in this game in their own way, but the game currently treats everyone in a communistic sense, you are number 874612, and your credit value is 238,000. you don't feel like "I am Kahn, baron of the federation and this cruiser represents the wars I have raged against opposition!".

Thank you for reading, and please, talk, converse, call me belligerent, I just want to know how you feel, cause this is how I and a few others do.

Well - I actually do feel like "I am KIRK, protector of the Empire" - of course I'm just a tiny cogwheel in the grand scheme of things and I wont have any serious impact on the universe, but that's how it should be - I personally dislike all those games where everyone is "the chosen" and a hero. I'm just a very incompetent pilot, trying to support his faction - no need to roleplay that . Of course I would be way richer if I was min/maxing the game, but I'm not in a hurry and have more fun playing it my way.

To each their own, I guess.

 

[Cosmos]

People are trading because its a path of least resistance. Arguably, its requires no skill (use some of the trading tools) little in the way of effort and offers the way to rewards. If you smuggle, do combat, or put a foot wrong the game comes down on you like a ton of bricks.

Why bother with all that when you can space truck stuff around, build rep with factions, and the game rewards you..

 

[Naruchico]

The federal dropship and imperial clipper require standings with their respective factions in order to be bought afaik. There should be more of that just to add some flavour to our choices, but I assume it's coming as more ships are added.

That is true, and there really should be some flavor too it, maybe it depending how you earned the rep you get a different skin, like a bounty hunter or trader skin and what not, there is a lot of opportunity to do minors things to make it feel like your getting something.

A lot of people have been raising good points, about people wanting to feel like the "chosen" one, but that's not what I am asking for, to me at the moment it feels like I am going to work, and no matter how hard I work, and how good I am at my job, all I get is a pat on the back and my salary...woohoo lol.

I think the best way I could say it is some sort of sense of achievement, no matter how minor it is, I'm not asking to be called the savior of the skies, I would just like a little something to feel like all my toil is not in vein and it's "not about the Benjamin's".

_Flin_ gives me a perfect example with what has been happening with Lugh, there is a lot of great things happening there, thanks to the players really trying to stir the sand, and I applaud it, and its beautiful, and I feel the game should give them something for that, like a crimson state decal, or paint scheme, or a special title,I imagine when civil war breaks out many of those who fought in it would receive some badge of honor in some way, or recognition for their work in the line of duty, as they say "No good deed goes unnoticed".

I'm not asking for the world to bow to me and scream my name, I just would like a handshake and a memento to show with pride.

 

[Mikey2305]

Trading arguably requires no skill and little in the way of effort and offers the way to rewards?? Hmm... Must be playing a different game to me. Trading, missions and exploration is my life choice and in my unarmed cobra is constantly demanding and intellectually challenging. Charging around going pew pew on the other hand

 

[Arkku]

my fuel costs are zero thanks to my 2D fuel scoop

That's retro, but how do you scoop anything with something that has no depth?




I'll get my coat.

 

[Sounder Deeps]

People are trading because its a path of least resistance. Arguably, its requires no skill (use some of the trading tools) little in the way of effort and offers the way to rewards. If you smuggle, do combat, or put a foot wrong the game comes down on you like a ton of bricks.

Why bother with all that when you can space truck stuff around, build rep with factions, and the game rewards you..

Yup. That's what talking monkeys do, they seek the path of least resistance for greatest reward. Been that way for a looong time lol. That's fine it's life. I'm sure FD will get around to some balancing. It's not like bounty hunting is horrific.

 

[CATPAIN KIRK]

That is true, and there really should be some flavor too it, maybe it depending how you earned the rep you get a different skin, like a bounty hunter or trader skin and what not, there is a lot of opportunity to do minors things to make it feel like your getting something.

completely agree, but seeing this game just as a foundation, like an OS, I'optimistic more of this will be implemented in the form of updates and expansions.

A lot of people have been raising good points, about people wanting to feel like the "chosen" one, but that's not what I am asking for, to me at the moment it feels like I am going to work, and no matter how hard I work, and how good I am at my job, all I get is a pat on the back and my salary...woohoo lol.

I think the best way I could say it is some sort of sense of achievement, no matter how minor it is, I'm not asking to be called the savior of the skies, I would just like a little something to feel like all my toil is not in vein and it's "not about the Benjamin's".

Well - but how likely is it that a single (and relatively new pilot - since we all are). Personally, I've been working towards good standings with the empire, which I achieved today and it felt satisfying to me, so it wasn't in vain.

_Flin_ gives me a perfect example with what has been happening with Lugh, there is a lot of great things happening there, thanks to the players really trying to stir the sand, and I applaud it, and its beautiful, and I feel the game should give them something for that, like a crimson state decal, or paint scheme, or a special title,I imagine when civil war breaks out many of those who fought in it would receive some badge of honor in some way, or recognition for their work in the line of duty, as they say "No good deed goes unnoticed".

I'm not asking for the world to bow to me and scream my name, I just would like a handshake and a memento to show with pride.

See above - being on friendly terms felt like a handshake to me, but I agree - there should be special decals depicting ranks and achievements.

Trading arguably requires no skill and little in the way of effort and offers the way to rewards?? Hmm... Must be playing a different game to me. Trading, missions and exploration is my life choice and in my unarmed cobra is constantly demanding and intellectually challenging. Charging around going pew pew on the other hand

I agree it can be a challenge - I don't use external trading tools such as slopeys and since I play with the rift, I memorize my trade data. Used slopeys during beta 2, but just feeding it with the desired variables and following a trade route was mind-numbingly easy. I do hope however that they increase the dificulty - haven't died a single time or even got close to it (well - except once, where I delibertely destroyed my ship for testing purposes because I assumed there would be a wipe).

 

[Andovar]

I'm not trading, in exploring and making good money. I started fresh on Monday and I am now in a viper with some nice gear. I'm in no rush to make millions, and my fuel costs are zero thanks to my 2D fuel scoop. 250k in scanning and around 100k from killing the folks that have interdicted me.

If you want to rush to the most expensive toys, good for you. This 84er is happy to spend the next few years bimbling around slowly upgrading. The journey is the game.

That's pretty much exactly my plan!
I'm one of those oddities who's never really cared how much "game cash" I had. Never cared for the typical mmo end-game legendary weapons or armor or any of that stuff.
The most fun for me has always been beating a difficult mission, or finding a new/hidden area in the game, or winning the occasional pvp match.
Plus I'm a huge sci-fi fan, so I think (hope) E: D will be to my liking.