Well, I'm a 85er and I say NO to dumbing down!
Dear Mr Braben... The poll
- Thread starter tucker
- Start date
Well, I'm a 85er and I say NO to dumbing down!
Most modern games have user definable difficulty levels or at the very least a mechanic that ramps it up as you go... Sadly as it stands, the most dangerous thing about Elite is the chance of a migraine from over exposure to the orange cockpit 
Yeah its for the better. Make it 1 push to win.
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Im happy to see (so far) that most want Elite to be a real game, but its really sad to see that people actually think Elite will be better if its simplified. Ive seen other devs change into fluff from being real good games so the push a button to win crowd might get their wish granted. After a few month they will be gone and Elite Dangerous abandoned by all. Hate to see that happen.
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Im happy to see (so far) that most want Elite to be a real game, but its really sad to see that people actually think Elite will be better if its simplified. Ive seen other devs change into fluff from being real good games so the push a button to win crowd might get their wish granted. After a few month they will be gone and Elite Dangerous abandoned by all. Hate to see that happen.
And as many old timers that think that every system should be the same as in 1984 ignoring that fact that there has been much improvement in software development since then.
Personally I think every opinion does matter, unfortunately it's more a case of who speaks loudest and more often that gets the ear of the people. Sadly it is very seldom for this to be the educated and well founded opinions. Sadly that IS the way of life and is also the reason the world is on the brink of social collapse.
Just to add another voice in support of what the OP says, (most of it anyway,). I'd like FD to put serious effort into educating the player base rather than changing mechanics to compensate.
I'm also of the opinion that shield cells should be removed from the game, they completely break any sense of combat balance. Put two equivalently skilled players in a similar loadout and the one with shield cells will win every time. Unlike chaff, silent running or any other defensive/offensive mechanic they cannot be countered. They also make npc encounters trivial, elite anacondas should be really, really hard, but load up some shield cells and boom.
I'm also of the opinion that shield cells should be removed from the game, they completely break any sense of combat balance. Put two equivalently skilled players in a similar loadout and the one with shield cells will win every time. Unlike chaff, silent running or any other defensive/offensive mechanic they cannot be countered. They also make npc encounters trivial, elite anacondas should be really, really hard, but load up some shield cells and boom.
I like the fact of categorizing the new players as the guys that want the game easy. As a new player I feel a bit segregated by this atitude. Never played an Elite game before, nor was interested on space sims. I decided to give this one a go. Its disapointing to join the forums and new players this and new players that everywhere. I dont give a damn if you are from the 70's or the 2000's. I want a proper game to play. I dont know how hard was the previous elite but maybe its time to drop the nostalgia. I had plenty of easy encounters so far, and I also got blown to pieces quite easily. The game released a few days ago give the team time to sort stuff out. Im serioulsy tired of this new internet whinning attitude I tend to see everywhere.
Enjoy the game for what it is, provide meaningfull feedback so it can change for the better and stop blaming other people for your fustrations with the game.
I want a challenging game.
Sincerely one of the 35$, 40$ new player.
Enjoy the game for what it is, provide meaningfull feedback so it can change for the better and stop blaming other people for your fustrations with the game.
I want a challenging game.
Sincerely one of the 35$, 40$ new player.
I’m an original player from 84 and just delighted the game is back and a new generation can play a good space Sim. I’ve not played this version due to a PC that is nearly as old as some of the new players lol. The game is nicely sitting in store for when I do.
I was under the impression the game would get more and more difficult as people ranked up and got better ships. But I also realised systems new players spawn into for the first time would probably not be safe zones but a lot safer than out deeper into space. I take it being a pirate in a federal space system would be a death sentence? Would the authorities in NPC police ships not keep the space clear and safe for new players till they ventured out.
Out in deep space I want it to be as difficult and cut throat as it can. One of the other games I’m following is Dayz because its so harsh and unforgiving that refreshing or will be one they get rid of the sad hackers with no skill.
What I will say is if its just silly easy it will lose all respect so agree it should not be too easy. I’ve not played elite in thirty years so I’m going to find it hard just like any new player. The only thing being a older gamer is I like the grind more as its what I expect to do in the game. No quick fix route in Elite I hope.
So while agree its got to move on for the new generation I don’t think any new player would thank you for making it easy they want just a challenge like the rest of us. IF they make it silly easy it simply damages the game regardless of new or old.
I was under the impression the game would get more and more difficult as people ranked up and got better ships. But I also realised systems new players spawn into for the first time would probably not be safe zones but a lot safer than out deeper into space. I take it being a pirate in a federal space system would be a death sentence? Would the authorities in NPC police ships not keep the space clear and safe for new players till they ventured out.
Out in deep space I want it to be as difficult and cut throat as it can. One of the other games I’m following is Dayz because its so harsh and unforgiving that refreshing or will be one they get rid of the sad hackers with no skill.
What I will say is if its just silly easy it will lose all respect so agree it should not be too easy. I’ve not played elite in thirty years so I’m going to find it hard just like any new player. The only thing being a older gamer is I like the grind more as its what I expect to do in the game. No quick fix route in Elite I hope.
So while agree its got to move on for the new generation I don’t think any new player would thank you for making it easy they want just a challenge like the rest of us. IF they make it silly easy it simply damages the game regardless of new or old.
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Most modern games have user definable difficulty levels or at the very least a mechanic that ramps it up as you go... Sadly as it stands, the most dangerous thing about Elite is the chance of a migraine from over exposure to the orange cockpit
I've tackled that already by making it green, so for me E;D is perfectly safe now.
I was going to write that FD should start ignoring the forums completely, but your post is more sensible.
With all due respect to the posters drop the "I paid X" comments - your opinion is not worth any more than anyone elses.
It does not matter what you backed or paid into the project - everyone was needed in order to help realise the project, from £1 up to the £5K mark.
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Regarding the poll - the game has to be dynamic in nature ... Start off true to the original Elite (84) and then expand upon it, which I believe is exactly what FD are going to do. That does mean there will be some tweaking / tuning and as in the Interdictions / Bounty claiming maybe FD will go too far ... provide criticism via the forums and help FD rectify the times they get it wrong - No one is perfect.
For myself classic Elite was quite a boring game in the end once you accumulated enough wealth to reduce the game to a grind fest. (Trading - pointless; ship upgrades on max; thousands of credits in the bank with nothing to spend it on) .. the only thing to do at that point was grind to Elite and I couldn't stomach that.
It does not matter what you backed or paid into the project - everyone was needed in order to help realise the project, from £1 up to the £5K mark.
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Regarding the poll - the game has to be dynamic in nature ... Start off true to the original Elite (84) and then expand upon it, which I believe is exactly what FD are going to do. That does mean there will be some tweaking / tuning and as in the Interdictions / Bounty claiming maybe FD will go too far ... provide criticism via the forums and help FD rectify the times they get it wrong - No one is perfect.
For myself classic Elite was quite a boring game in the end once you accumulated enough wealth to reduce the game to a grind fest. (Trading - pointless; ship upgrades on max; thousands of credits in the bank with nothing to spend it on) .. the only thing to do at that point was grind to Elite and I couldn't stomach that.
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Not voted for several reasons:
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I am not keen on this old v new player attitude that has crept into ED discussions
The poll gives the impression, at least to me, that change equals nerf or dumb down.
Starting to get a bit weary of polls as, all to often, they only function to polarize the community even more
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My thoughts are:
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Change based solely on the whims of players who want to change what ED is, is bad and FD should not cater to these requests unless they add to the games complexity and/or depth. No change at all would be equally bad so I am all for positive changes that add to ED allowing it to grow into the game it deserves to be.
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Am I 50 years old or 20 does not matter, a gamer is a game is a gamer, we play games if the game isn't what we want we move to other games.
We should not try to fundamentally change a game so it suits us as this would possibly be at the expense of the ED experience of those the game does suit.
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I am not keen on this old v new player attitude that has crept into ED discussions
The poll gives the impression, at least to me, that change equals nerf or dumb down.
Starting to get a bit weary of polls as, all to often, they only function to polarize the community even more
.
My thoughts are:
.
Change based solely on the whims of players who want to change what ED is, is bad and FD should not cater to these requests unless they add to the games complexity and/or depth. No change at all would be equally bad so I am all for positive changes that add to ED allowing it to grow into the game it deserves to be.
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Am I 50 years old or 20 does not matter, a gamer is a game is a gamer, we play games if the game isn't what we want we move to other games.
We should not try to fundamentally change a game so it suits us as this would possibly be at the expense of the ED experience of those the game does suit.
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Come off it man stop trying to give an overly simplistic analysis to the question of balance within a game that has been in Beta for a year or more I've been gaming since pacman in 1980 and even before. I have participated in countless console and pc games constantly since then, right up to the some of the more recent MMO's like LOTR's Online, City of Heroes, DC Universe Online, Call of Duty, Age of Conan, Guildwars, right up to what some consider the cream of the crop...ahemm...World of Tanks. I also played and play console and PC RPGs like Dragon Age Origins through to Inquisition currently, State of Decay, (nice little time waster while it lasts), Metal Gear Solid (I was in ecstasy playing this back in the late 90's and it got me through a bad marriage to boot!), I remember having a blast with some of the original Ghost Recon's too (Desert storm for example), etc. etc. etc. please don't tell me I am this or that sort of gamer based on my age. For example I've never loved COD coke driven mayhem but I know people 10 years older than I (I am 42) that eat it up on a regular basis to this day.
We each have our own tastes and prejudices when it comes to gaming and we are never going to please everyone all of the time depending on the time of the year, month or day even like-minded players will want something different. The answer to this seeming question (and I say seeming because there are a lot of people screaming me no like for completely different and unrelated reasons) is to start catering for different tastes on different servers or game modes if that is at all possible or feasible, ramp-up npc encounters on a slider for example, make certain areas PvP orientated for the coked-up, overachieving hyperactive ones, etc. etc. etc.
Eeeeeehuuuggggg! Stop that please!!
Here you are getting on the right track but there are more than two camps no matter how hard you try to generalise or simplify it's just short-sighted reasoning.
You started well here....
but I'll still vote
...and although ending with a smiley wink face, you let me down
Wrong I will not vote as nothing said in this poll reflects anything I would like to vote on I feel strongly for the labeling being dished out by the OP and yourself only and it was for this reason and this reason alone I choose to comment. I have made a more comprehensive answer to the alleged dumbing down in the thread quoted on the first page if you or the OP are interested in my views.
Please be more open-minded in any discussions on changing game-play. This is a solid Engine and the potential alone should make you appreciate what has been achieved so far if not the actual results in and of themselves. The biggest barrier to peoples enjoyment is pushing the game to it's limits, chasing money and ships, while missing out on the beauty and complexity of the possibilities open to them in this Universe.
Yes it is sparse on narrative and that is what seems to upset some people, yes it gets simple when you've got the most money, the biggest guns and the biggest ships in the Galaxy but isn't this true of all games? For the foreseeable future FD will strive to keep ahead of and give the overachieving players what they want this will drive onward until you get people rage quitting because of difficulty ramps (Look at The Secret World for example, new players there are bound to be put of by the sheer complexity and impossible leveling brick-wall even though there are no levels there are always people who want all abilities now. TSW has been made so difficult now that vetern gamers have rage quit in droves. One guy I know had an on-line gaming show dedicated to it and he just quit in a red faced huff of immense proportions...ok maybe a slight exaggeration but he was a bit peeved off for sure).
You are going to get better at this it is going to seem easy, new content or difficulty levels should be the way forward but don't be in a rush to condemn, hate and label, jeez man enjoy it all a little too.
Rant over.
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Hi Sete, I only segregated the new players in the poll to see what way the vote would go, I'm glade to see that a lot of new player like you would want the game to be a challenge and Devs to stop nerfing content too.
There seems to me a ton of moans and groans over the last 2 weeks about game difficulty. One camp are happy with it as is, another want it to be easier, another want it to be more difficult.
There's no way FD are every going to make everyone happy as is. However, there may be a way yet. Perhaps if (once some of the bugs are fixed up) they added a difficulty slider or option. This should only affect solo play and would mean a choice of:
1) Solo Easy - AI are easier, Creds from missions are slightly higher (but the open economy/marketplace is the same for everyone, so unaffected), more missions in each station, more items and parts in each station etc.
2) Solo Difficulty - AI are cruel, Creds from missions are slightly lower (but the open economy/marketplace is the same for everyone, so unaffected), less missions or less reward, parts in stations are rare or random, etc
3) Open Play - The default option. Difficulty is entirely variable, depending on the situation, the person or AI you're fighting and the group you're in.
These options would, I think, appease both new-comers and oldies alike (though I don't know where this idea that new-comers want it easier)
There's no way FD are every going to make everyone happy as is. However, there may be a way yet. Perhaps if (once some of the bugs are fixed up) they added a difficulty slider or option. This should only affect solo play and would mean a choice of:
1) Solo Easy - AI are easier, Creds from missions are slightly higher (but the open economy/marketplace is the same for everyone, so unaffected), more missions in each station, more items and parts in each station etc.
2) Solo Difficulty - AI are cruel, Creds from missions are slightly lower (but the open economy/marketplace is the same for everyone, so unaffected), less missions or less reward, parts in stations are rare or random, etc
3) Open Play - The default option. Difficulty is entirely variable, depending on the situation, the person or AI you're fighting and the group you're in.
These options would, I think, appease both new-comers and oldies alike (though I don't know where this idea that new-comers want it easier)
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What you're saying is absolutely not true. I'll put short version to make it easier to understand (and that's aimed at me, I seem to lose the point the more I write)
1) Shield Cell need a while to kick in. It's not a long time, but enough to have the shields taken down, rendering SC useless for the time being. Happened to me quite a few times when fighting pirate NPCs and I payed with my life few times. Press-to-win?
2) Sure, they can tip the balance towards player using them. That's not why I believe they were intended. How about taking on stronger NPC oponents that you normally didn't stand a chance of defeating? How about taking on multiple NPC opponents? How about escaping that damn pirate NPC in your Hauler? How about repelling multiple NPC fighter-class opponents in your frigate-type ship? How about surviving in war zones?
3) What you seem to deliberately skip is you also have a limited supply of shield cells. Once you use them all, that's it. Why not mention that?
Considering all of above, I do not feel shield cells are overpowered. They give an advantage but please tell me - compared to the rest of NPC engagements in the game - how many times did you fight equally-skilled player where shield cells tipped the balance? I haven't once. On the contrary, it saved my skin a lot of times when I had to fight stronger NPCs. They were Dangerous Cobras, I was Mostly Harmless Eagle. That is what I call balance, so your smaller, inferior armor-wise ship still stands a chance.
Oh, and I had a fight against 'conda (not even elite) and I was blown out of the sky very quickly. Maybe more skilled player could make short work of her in Eagle, I certainly couldn't. But the whole "mount-SC-auto-win" theory is as far from true as it can be. Not without looking into full range of situations it can be used in - judging its OP-ness by just one scenario is wrong and leads to false conclusions.
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Sargon
Banned
And now you apply a straw-man argument? You think it helps? It doesn't.
First. I ignore NOTHING about software development. Had you kindly taken the time to check and see whom you're replying to you'd understand that. I've been working in computer games and 3d graphics since 1992. So no, I neither ignore advancement nor believe that today's game should be a eye-candy only remake of the original. Much less do I think that all stations should look alike, please don't put words in my mouth to try to give believable clout to your opinion.
You can personally believe whatever you want. It won't change the way things work. But you are right about one thing. The one who squeaks the loudest gets the oil. And unfortunately all the WHINERS, crybabies and pilot-skill impaired folks that would want everything served on an autopilot-platter, tend to squeak A LOT around here. All I can hope for is that Frontier stays true to its initial scope and vision and doesn't cave in to the masses.
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I'm a newcomer, and I don't like games that have an attitude of "everyone's a winner."
Games should be complex and difficult to master. I don't want this game to become an online version of "Galaxy on Fire 2" (nothing against that game, I had fun with it, but that's not what I want from Elite.)
Games should be complex and difficult to master. I don't want this game to become an online version of "Galaxy on Fire 2" (nothing against that game, I had fun with it, but that's not what I want from Elite.)