Cobra Mk III vs Viper Mk III

[Hamerstein]

Is it worth upgrading my Viper to a Cobra, knowing full well that I make most of my money bounty hunting and assassinating high profile targets? I would really love to fly the Cobra again but after trying it out, I felt that it was too weak for combat and I decided to downgrade back into a Viper. What do you guys think?

I've bounty hunted extensively in both the Viper and the Cobra.

While PvP is always going to be subjective (how do you really determine 2 equally skilled players for test purposes?), it's PvE is where your question really has relevance. Most of the fights you'll find yourself involved in will be against NPC opponents and my conclusion is that vs. NPCs a Cobra wins hands down.

Removing shield cells from the equation for the moment (and they are very relevant in favour of the Cobra).

I've had military grade armour on both ships vs. Elite Anacondas. Similar weapon load outs - 2 x class 1 beams, 2 x class 2 gimballed multicannons. A rated thrusters (A3 Viper, A4 Cobra), shields.

With the Viper, it was a bit of a lottery. Get an enemy with a favourable loadout (Fixed frontal weapons) and the Viper holds it's own very well. Against a large loadout of turreted and gimballed beams, you need to be chaffing as much as possible - but really that applies to both ships.

The problem with the Viper is if it loses it's shields. The hull is like paper compared to the Cobra. I've had circumstances where I've lost shields on both ships, and the Cobra holds up so much better.

Now factoring in shield cells, there are calls from many players that these are overpowered and I wouldn't argue with that. On the Viper a B3 (the largest class it can have and A3 have less charges for some weird reason) gave me 6 charges. Now 6 will see me through just about any single combat, providing I'm not reckless, careless or stupid.

With a B4 shield cell on a Cobra - I have ELEVEN charges, basically I am invincible...it's ridiculous. I can be as sloppy as hell and still never lose my shields and if by some quirk of fate my brain totally falls out and my shields drop - my hull is pretty much unkillable too.

So with Shield cells - the Cobra wins by a mile, without shield cells (or after FD nerf them) the Cobra wins by half a mile.

EDIT - increased the number of charges on shield cells - forgot that they have 1 loaded and 5 (or 10) in the chamber

 

[Morbad]

Cobra DOES NOT fit more weapon hard points.

True, and the hardpoints is does have are generally in worse locations, especially for fixed weapons.

Cobra is slower.

False and true. Worse thruster performance, but notably higher boost speed than a Viper. Over short distances the Cobra is faster unless you force it to make dramatic changes in direction to play off it's lesser acceleration. Over long distances it can still keep up with a fast Viper because of a 30 m/s boost speed advantage and the ability to boost every 5 seconds with an A3 distributor.

Cobra is less agile.

True and false. Thruster performance and acceleration are noticeably worse on the Cobra, but it's pitch rate is much better at cornering speeds.

Cobra has weaker shields.

Needs further testing. An A4 shielded Cobra is very close to an A3 Viper in shield strength and the A4 shield on a Cobra regenerates much faster.

Cobra can fit more shield cells, if you do that its hands down better.

Shield cells are terribly overrated.

The rate and amount of recharge is much lower than when they were introduced, and both Cobra and Vipers with shield countering weapons can take down the shields of the other while an SCB is being used if you are careful with your timing.

I think the Cobra has a faster boost (mine boosts close to 430) and better capacity for shield cells. With grade A thrusters and power distributor you can boost with impunity.

A light pure combat Cobra can reach ~450 m/s boost. My light pure combat Viper manages 415 m/s. Most people carry way too much garbage though.

Both ships use the same distributors and both can boost every ~5 seconds with class A engines and distributors.

Yup, but boosts aren't all that great for combat.

Proper use of boosting in combat can be very important as it affects all thrust vectors except reverse and dramatically increases pitch rate while active. You can close to optimal range, or when timed properly, disengage from a ship of similar speed and escape.

Agility is much more favoured and in battle, the ship with the fastest turning speed wins.

Not always.

Faster turn speed can be countered to a large degree with better lateral and vertical speed and acceleration.

there is no reason to ever buy a Viper over a Cobra, unless you really like the beauty of the viper and you are prepared to put in million to make it decent and accept all it's weaknesses and future problems
- Power hungry: fully upgraded is impossible, you have to choose what to sacrifice which is not normal, and because of that there is a lot of other problems related, you can't choose your weapons, you have to put the worst utility/internal stuff, you will have to disable/enable modules all the time, and finally try to find for hours what is the "sacrifice build" that will at least be enough for you

I have no power issues in my Viper and I use a full fixed beam laser load out.

You don't need to disable modules all the time, you simply need to know how to set priorities. When I deploy my weapons, my cargo hatch, fuel scoop, and FSD automatically disable...which is not a downside since most of them can't be used with hardpoints deployed anyway.

- No edge against a Cobra: the Cobra will be faster than you, have more shield cell, will have the same agility, can use all the best weapons and all the best utility stuff at the same time without any drawback

There are always drawbacks to equpping stuff not suited to the task at hand.

This came as a complete shock when I first went from my Eagle to a Viper. It has the same size fuel tank as the Eagle.

I run a 2T fuel tank (saves 2T without having to deliberately avoid topping off fuel) on my Viper and with a 15.3 Ly jump range and an A2 fuel scoop, I have very few issues getting around.

Buff the Viper!

I don't particularly think the Viper needs a buff.

it's PvE is where your question really has relevance. Most of the fights you'll find yourself involved in will be against NPC opponents and my conclusion is that vs. NPCs a Cobra wins hands down.

There are no PvE opponents that are a real threat to either of these ships when they are well upgraded and in the hands of a competent pilot, thus the PvP differential is the only one that I find relevant.

 

[FluffyKitten]

Morbad... Wow! I commend you for such a thorough and coherent reply. Of all of the responses so far, yours is the most helpful and objective.

Ultimately, choosing between a Viper and Cobra is preference. They both have there strengths and weaknesses, you need to decide what factors matter to you.

 

[Starender]

Morbad seriously you use 2T fuel tank on your viper ? this is almost a suicide intent, so if you jump for a 14 LY which will take 80% of your fuel tank and you end up to a star that you can't scoop what happens ? autodestruction i guess :x


you see, those type of choice and sacrifice are exactly what i'm complaining about, this should never happen especially on a ship you upgrade to the max worth 4 million

in any case, and despite all the good things you say, one can clearly see that there is as i said, 0 advantage to ever pilot a Viper over a Cobra, you manage a hell lot of trouble for no advantage, while the Cobra have no drawback and can do every job better AND at the same time

 

[Starender]

They both have there strengths and weaknesses, you need to decide what factors matter to you.

wrong :x
the viper have a lot of weaknesses for some of equal strength as the Cobra

The Cobra have no weaknesses for a lot more strength that any other ship even combined

 

[Hamerstein]

There are no PvE opponents that are a real threat to either of these ships when they are well upgraded and in the hands of a competent pilot, thus the PvP differential is the only one that I find relevant.

I agree that there are no significantly challenging NPC opponents, however they are the ones you are going to statistically encounter significantly more often. Coupled with the fact that it is impossible to accurately quantify the relative talents of human players beyond the circumstantially anecdotal - comparing the merits of ships from a PvP perspective is a tenuous justification for what you fly.

 

[Guyperson]

I have very few issues getting around.

It's not a matter of getting around or getting refueled. Just that it's the same amount of fuel, so why so much more expensive to refuel?

 

[fergal]

Morbad seriously you use 2T fuel tank on your viper ? this is almost a suicide intent, so if you jump for a 14 LY which will take 80% of your fuel tank and you end up to a star that you can't scoop what happens ? autodestruction i guess :x


you see, those type of choice and sacrifice are exactly what i'm complaining about, this should never happen especially on a ship you upgrade to the max worth 4 million

in any case, and despite all the good things you say, one can clearly see that there is as i said, 0 advantage to ever pilot a Viper over a Cobra, you manage a hell lot of trouble for no advantage, while the Cobra have no drawback and can do every job better AND at the same time

Cobra is a bigger target. Cobra costs more to buy and outfit. If money is no problem buy a python instead of either.

It's not a matter of getting around or getting refueled. Just that it's the same amount of fuel, so why so much more expensive to refuel?

Its been called the fuel tax. Wait until you get a cobra or a type 6. All bigger ships have larger fuel charges for the same amount of fuel.
The sidewinder and eagle have very small fuel costs (and probably the hauler).

 

[Morbad]

I agree that there are no significantly challenging NPC opponents, however they are the ones you are going to statistically encounter significantly more often. Coupled with the fact that it is impossible to accurately quantify the relative talents of human players beyond the circumstantially anecdotal - comparing the merits of ships from a PvP perspective is a tenuous justification for what you fly.

I fly what I fly because in my experience in well over one-hundred PvP confrontations tells me this is what allows me to prevail, or failing that, survive, most often, given my particular talents and preferences.

The skill of individual player may be a complex and often unknowable variables, but the merits of the ships themselves are not. I know that my Viper is statistically lighter and therefore faster than the majority of Vipers I am likely to encounter. I also know that my D3 sensors can reliably resolve a target running at ~50% heat level at ~5km, and I know how much time I have to decide to engage or retreat before I am at true risk. I know how much time it takes common weapon configurations to drop my shields at various ranges. I know how my weapons perform against the shields and armor of others. I can weigh all of these factors against my estimation of my opponent's ability, based on my experiences, and come to a fairly accurate assessment of my odds. Loadout can dramatically, tangibly, and measurably influence these odds.

I may not be able to consistently predict the complex interaction of skill and free will, but I can sure as hell stack the odds in my favor with application of some fairly simple and universally applicable bits of knowledge.

Yes, I have had more than twenty times the PvE encounters, but the risk of these encounters is so much less that I feel it perfectly appropriate to weigh them at a tiny fraction of the PvP ones. Hell, I was in a conflict zone the other day, and prioritized the destruction of an obviously novice sidewinder CMDR over that of the Elite NPC Python and two Master Cobra that were attacking me because the human pilot in the noobship was the target with the greater threat potential.

 

[TheNameIsJambo]

It depends on what you want to do..

Viper = Bounty hunting/merc only.


Cobra = Light trading, bounty hunting, mercenary, pirating.


I'd say, if you're going to be in one system for a very long time, doing nothing but killing, get a Viper. If you want to be able to follow events from the unfolding story in GalNet, get a Cobra + fuel scoop.

Yes, the Viper has better shields and yes it's default max speed is faster, but the Viper has '70' hull [whatever metric that means!] vs the Cobra's 120/140 (I forget). So it's up to you to rely on your Viper's shield, and manage it well.

 

[Hamerstein]

I fly what I fly because in my experience in well over one-hundred PvP confrontations tells me this is what allows me to prevail, or failing that, survive, most often, given my particular talents and preferences.

Respectfully, and I don't dispute your personal experiences at all, but they are subjective.

Objectively, which is better? Which is going to cost you less in terms of number of victories in the game environment vs number of defeats, given the demonstrated premise of player vs NPC population?

You fly a Viper extremely well (I'm assuming this but it's a fair assumption due to the experience you've outlined), but you are not every player. I am not every player either, but my assessment is based on fighting the most difficult AI currently in game - which is a far more consistent benchmark than vs. many humans of varying quality. I have fought over 30 engagements (each) with Elite Anacondas in both an A rated Viper and Cobra, I can categorically say that it is far easier to win those encounters in a Cobra - because of the conditions I've outlined.

I'm a boring player vs. AI, I find a way that works and stick to it, I get in close, outflank them, destroy their shields and take out their power plant, I use the tools I have (shield cells and chaff) to keep myself alive during this process - I do this regardless of whether I'm in a Viper or a Cobra. My methodology is consistent between encounters, whereas yours will vary because each of your PvP opponents are going to try and engage you differently.

I'm not dismissing your experience for what works for you, but honestly I could put a halfwit in the cockpit of a tooled up Cobra and they could win encounters against every AI they come across, I could not say the same for the Viper, because it takes some ability to achieve the same results.

So objectively, using the lowest common denominator of subject player skill, applying the same conditions of combat, the most difficult and consistent level of opposition (Elite Anaconda), for the most prevalent opposition encountered in the game (NPC), which the OP has specifically mentioned in his opening post, I stand by my assessment.

 

[Morbad]

Respectfully, and I don't dispute your personal experiences at all, but they are subjective.

Most experiences are.

However, there are objective aspects to these experiences as well. Speeds, acceleration, weapon convergence, sheild/armor strength, relative effects of weight, number and side of module points...all are objective and quantifiable subfactors influencing my subjective experience.

for the most prevalent opposition encountered in the game (NPC), which the OP has specifically mentioned in his opening post, I stand by my assessment.

I will agree that when it comes to making money via bounty hunting that the Cobra is typically a superior craft, for numerous reasons. However, the OP did not specify NPCs, just bounties and some player have enormous bounties at this point. Furthermore, in open play, you can potentially encounter hostile players anywhere, so even if NPCs are you prime targets, PvP may well still be relevant, as losing a decked out Cobra can be expensive.

Also, I'm not even saying that the Viper is the superior ship for PvP (it's what I personally favor, but I'd be a fool and liar if I stated there were no people out there who could prevail more often than not against my Viper with their Cobra) just pointing out that it has merits that one should be aware of before choosing one ship or the other, or before taking one on in a PvP encounter. Go into a fight against a competent Viper CMDR assuming that a bucket of SCBs and a faster pitch speed will carry the day and you could well be 45 seconds from rebuy screen with a 400k figure at the bottom.

I also agree that the Cobra probably has a lower skill ceiling, or at least an easier learning curve, if only because it performs better in the flight modes most people are going to be used to. Few games or flight sims have vehicles that have vertical and lateral thrusters, with pitch roll and yaw being the prime, if not only, significant vector adjustment methods.

 

[CATPAIN KIRK]

I prefer the Viper. I have very little combat experience in general and even less pvp experience. The reason I like using the Viper in warzones is the fact that I feel uncomfortable in a Cobra because it's big as a barn door.

Likewise, if I have the choice to engage either a hostile Cobra or Viper, I'll go for the Cobra first - mainly because I insist on using fixed weapons whilst being a lousy pilot and an even lousier shot at the same time.

Moreover, it's cheap to repair (have an Asp and getting rammed or hit a couple of times makes warzones entirely unviable from a financial pov) and allows for tighter maneuvers around capital ships due to its smaller profile, compared to the Cobra.

Sure - even with the A3 plant, it has grid issues, but I found them to be easy to circumnavigate using a little power management. Having that said, the Cobra probably is a little too good at combat for being and allrounder.

 

[MikeB]

Never flown a Cobra... Really love my Viper and have near-enough maxed it out with upgrades... Has taken me up to expert rating in combat... The consensus on the forum, as to which is better, is that there is no consensus, there are numerous experienced combat-oriented pilots on here who swear that the Viper is hands-down the best combat craft by far, while there are just as many who are equally sure that the Cobra is vastly superior. The sensible conclusion then is that it's likely a matter of taste. One point I'd like to raise however, and one that's seldom mentioned on here, is that the Viper has a relatively good yaw rate, while the Cobra's is supposedly extremely slow (I cannot verify this personally so consider this little more than an anecdote). In combat, especially sniping and FA/off, yaw is really, really important. That's the one thing that has put me off buying the Cobra... The Viper is also considerably cheaper to repair and rebuy on insurance. That said, if you want a multi-role craft, the Cobra wins hands-down.

 

[Morbad]

Yaw rates between the two ships are not all that different, in my experience, but I will get some hard numbers later if no one beats me to the punch.

 

[MikeB]

Yaw rates between the two ships are not all that different, in my experience, but I will get some hard numbers later if no one beats me to the punch.

Again, not sure myself, have yet to fly the cobra, just going by what I have heard...

 

[Daelyx]

Yaw rates between the two ships are not all that different, in my experience, but I will get some hard numbers later if no one beats me to the punch.

Any luck with testing that out?

 

[Yabba Addict]

I'm completely in love with my Viper, if you can get it under 100 tonnes with A thrusters it is a complete joy. I use the directional thrusters nearly all the time now, the moves she can pull are great fun. And as long as I'm not against someone with multiple shield cells I'm pretty confident vs a Cobra.

 

[fergal]

Yaw rates between the two ships are not all that different, in my experience, but I will get some hard numbers later if no one beats me to the punch.

Pitch on cobra was certainly superior in beta, yaw and roll were pretty similar, so close it was difficult to measure. I don't think anything has changed.

A4 shield on a cobra is about 10% weaker than a E3 shield on a viper.