Cobra vs Viper - the definite Thread

[phantagor]

Alright,


i have been surfing through this forum and reddit, reading all those different threads about cobra vs viper. Unfortunatly, most of those threads are mostly based on the following sentences "viper is the better fighter", "cobra is good for longer travel" or stuff like "Cobra doesnt overheat that much".


The issue i do have is, that most of those have no real background and i am always not sure if they are dependend on real experience with both ships or just a general "feeling".


So, what i want to do here is gather as much information about both types of ships as possible, to help deciding which IS the better fighter.


Therefor, we should, first of all, theoretically speak of both ships fully equipped with A rating stuff for the best of their class.


Now some questions to help going on in this thread:


1. Shield Strength: According to the Wiki (http://elite-dangerous.wikia.com/wiki/Ships), the Cobra has 80 Shieldpoints (SP) while the Viper has 105. This is their stock shield strength. How does that compare to fully equipped Ships with both having Rank A shields? Does the Viper still has more Shieldstrength when boith ships are fully equipped? And: How much difference do 25 Points acutally make in a real combat situation?


2. Hull Strength: Here the Cobra has the better of the two: Cobra having 120 Hull, while the Viper only has meagerly 70 Hull. How does that compare? From my experience so far, when the shields go down, things blow up really fast. Do 50 Points of Hull make a huge deal? Is there a way to deal with that with the Viper?


3. Overheating: I read in several posts, that the Viper has overheating problems. But on the other hand, i read that having a A Rank Power distributor makes up for that. Is that true or has the Cobra the better, sustainable firing output?


4. Speed and Maneuvrability: For maneuvrqability, both Ships are on par (6), but than again, i dont trust the wiki in this regard, as the Asp should have the same value, but is definitly not as agile as the smaller ships. Any experience on that? I heard so far that the Viper is more agile and, of course, faster than the cobra, but how important is that really and is there that much of a difference?
5. Hardpoint allocation: Yeah, most people agree that the viper has the better hardpoint allocation as the cobra, but i had no problems most of the time shooting stuff... if you know your ship, you know how to aim. Which brings us
to an important question


6. Skill: The Viper is smaller, is therefor harder to target and has the better Hardpoint allocation, which should mean, that it would be easier to evade fire at all and hit the better. The Cobra needs some know-how where to aim and how to handle your ship itself. On the other hand, if you turn with your cobra, you are a big, fat ugly target. Which ship needs more skill to handle? IF the viper is squeeshier than the cobra, surely the viper. But IF the Cobra has a harder time to maneuver and get its hardpoints pointed at the enemy, than the Cobra needs more skill? Or are they both on par?
What i dont want to know: Jumprange (you are a fighter, not a trader), cost (cost is a problem that you have when you start out, this post is more related to people who have the money anyways)
This post should be from a complete point of combat view.

 

[CMDR Cheknov]

Ive died way more times in a viper than i have in a cobra when i fit them both with the same equipment, i switched to the cobra and i live alot longer, both ships had smaller gimballed lasers and larger multicannons gimbaled as well, cobra did more damage imo as well, however viper is faster but just as agile as the cobra.

 

[The Land]

Some of these details aren't really understood outside of Frontier ' s offices yet.

However it is basically a tradeoff between agility and survivability. The Viper is much more nimble to fly, as well as faster. The Cobra is tougher - I am unsure whether its shields are stronger (it may be shield/hull ratio is important rather than plain shields) - but its hull definitely is.

For pure combat I would suggest the Viper has the edge as a skilled pilot will have an easier time keeping high - damage weapons on target, and will be able to control the encounter enough that the Cobra ' s added toughness is less important. In particular a Viper is better against larger ships where maneuverability is really important to avoid taking hits.

For piracy where internal space is an issue that might dictate the Cobra.

 

[Altissimus]

It's pretty simple:

Viper
- cheaper and often acquired before cobra
- combat orientated; multi-role suffers
- short (comparatively) jump range
- better spread of hard points
- faster (often underestimated point)
- more manoeuvrable (same on paper but being smaller and lighter makes a difference)

Cobra
- more expensive
- multi-role ship with decent combats ability
- larger, more internals


Summary
- viper is slightly better than cobra for pure combat
- cobra is "better" in all other areas because it is a multi-role ship
- cobra's larger size and more internals allow a specialist combat build that rivals the viper

Why would you buy a Viper over a Cobra?
- because you don't have enough money for a cobra
- because you want a pure combat ship (but you could still do this with a cobra)

Why would you buy a cobra over a viper?
- because you can afford to

The ships are two of the earliest you can buy, ergo their buy price (and equipment price) is the main reason why you would choose the viper first.

 

[CmdrKull]

Hmm, I can't offer anything completely objective, because I didn't get my Cobra FULLY specced, and it was late Gamma the last time I flew it in combat. Maybe my experiences can help though.

In my Viper:
My shields hold up well. Not sure how to quantify that.... They can take a plasma bolt from an Anaconda and still have about 2 rings, plenty of time to use a shield cell (someone said they're for noobs, I say they're for people that intend to win)

When my shields HAVE gone down, my hull takes a beating pretty quickly, even with mil.spec hull plating. Cobra had a noticeably more solid 'feel' as I spent some time flying shieldless(!) and survived a few interdictions without enormous concern. Never lost my shields in the Cobra vs an Anaconda, so maybe not a fair assessment.

I don't think anyone is saying that the Cobra feels as maneuverable as the Viper, are they? Throttle control and flight assist on/off means I can keep a target locked almost 100% of the time, and that wasn't completely possible in the cobra (maybe my skill has improved slightly? I'm not that good, honestly... I feel the Viper helps me make up for that.)

I can jump 11ly in my Viper, which is less than half of what my Cobra could do but is still viable, and It's much more affordable to put military armor on a Viper. You didn't want those answers but they're still very valid to the question.


Oh, I forgot: overheating... I have quad beams and can run them flat out for maybe 15 seconds at a time, let them recharge a few seconds, and do it again...over heating means you've lost control over your firing pattern I think. Bigger issue.... MUCH bigger issue, is available power. Max power I can get in my Viper is 12, and that defines the choices you make. Once my hard points are deployed, all my secondary components shut off. This means my FSD is not available in case I need to run, but with mass lock this doesn't really work anyway.. Better not to run.

 

[Gauntlet]

You probably shouldn't assume that all A rated is going to be the best set up either, lighter D class components can offer an agility advantage to any ship in combat that may well offset the advantage of the better component

 

[Moriarte]

34 Shield cells can be fitted in Cobra.

That is if i ditch cargo rack, fuel scoop and interdictor.

So, in a pure Mexican standoff with two competent lads, both of them having each other in sights 95% of the time due to FAoff, i wonder who is going to win..

They will probably both get tired and part their ways eventually. Or run out of multicannon ammo

 

[Questionable Ethics]

To be honest, the only thing that counts here is the comparison against other similarly skilled CMDRs during PvP.

Even with mediocre piloting skills, either of them can wipe out anything the AI is currently likely to throw at you.

QE

 

[phantagor]

Trying to sum up the most helpful posts here:

- Overheating is not an issue but power management is, on the viper. The amount of power available is less than in a cobra, meaning you hve to carefully choose of what to use and what not
- The lesser amount of hull strength on a viper can only partially be helped with by applying mil-spec armor plating. Althought the price is far cheaper than with a cobra, the plating still doesnt help loosing lots of hull strength fast.
- The Viper is more maneuvreable as the Cobra is, and therefor has an easier time having its weapons always focused on the enemy. The Cobra needs a bit more Skill to handle the same situation.


- Beating bigger ships is easier with a Viper, as those fights rely on agility to evade fire. The question here is: A Cobra with more Shield-Banks and a Chaff Launcher might be able to negate the benefit the Viper has here?

 

[Tronicus]

The only ship I fear is a competant player in a well kitted viper. Very hard to outrun, and a good viper pirate will dance circles around you. Pure fighter, viper wins.

 

[Andargor]

The only definite thread will be 2 pilots' fight results from 10 fights with one in a cobra and the other in a viper, and 10 more switched around with the same outfitting.

 

[phantagor]

Yeah, doing some testing would be nice, if not for the damn bounties and getting shot and loosing your ship

 

[CMDR Solarisjock]

Yeah, doing some testing would be nice, if not for the damn bounties and getting shot and loosing your ship

well, i would be up for testing that out. and as long as both parties agree to stop at 5% hull, and have crime reporting turned off, that should be manageable. 5% was an arbitrary amount that i would consider a close point of yup, it is an aggressive sneeze from going all explodey.

 

[Morbad]

You aren't going to come to any definitive answer over which is the superior combatant because both ships have different strengths and weaknesses which require different tactics and skills to make the best of.

However, we can certainly dispel some misconceptions:

1. Power. Neither ship has power problems, and much of the extra output from the A4 power plant the Cobra can mount goes to powering the larger modules the ship can support.
12MW from the A3 PP on the Viper is enough to support ~13.4MW of equipment before an modules that would normally be usable while deployed need to be disabled. Losing your FSD when weapons are deployed is not an issue because you can't use it with weapons deployed anyway.

2. Heat. I have never risked overheating in combat with a Viper unless I was mounting railguns, silent running, or fighting way too close to a star. The Cobra will overheat in the same scenarios.

3. Shield strength. Assuming A class components, the Viper can absorb a bit more damage before sheilds collapse, but when they do collapse, it takes them much longer to recharge than the shields on the Cobra.

4. Hull. The Cobra can take more hull damage, and this ratio does not change between the ships with improved armor. Armor adds resistances, but does not affect base values. The Viper is certainly the smaller target, and is less likely to be hit, so weaker armor is mitigated somewhat. However, this is harder to quantify.

5. Speed and Agility. This is where a lot of confusion arises, especially if one looks at the official maneuverability rating and just assume the ships fly similarly. Long story short, the Cobra both pitches considerably faster, and can achive greater forward speeds via boosting. To counter, the Viper can accelerate noticeably better, and has better lateral/vertical/reverse thruster performance. This may or may not equate to roughly the same maneuverability, but how each ship gets there is very different.

Once my hard points are deployed, all my secondary components shut off. This means my FSD is not available in case I need to run, but with mass lock this doesn't really work anyway.. Better not to run.

No one's FSD is available with hardpoints deployed, so this distinction is irrelevant.

34 Shield cells can be fitted in Cobra.

That is if i ditch cargo rack, fuel scoop and interdictor.

So, in a pure Mexican standoff with two competent lads, both of them having each other in sights 95% of the time due to FAoff, i wonder who is going to win..

They will probably both get tired and part their ways eventually. Or run out of multicannon ammo

SCBs are no guarantee of victory. I've seen many a CMDR lose shields before being able to even pop an SCB charge.

FA Off is not some magic maneuverability button either. Also, even the absolute best FA Off pilots have their aim with fixed weapons hampered at least slightly by lack of FA.

Furthermore, this situation is uselessly inflexible. There are generally options in any fight, and anyone that arbitrarily dismisses them in favor of contrived rules of engagement or pitched battles is just handicapping themselves.

Purely for the sake of argument, if you had a Viper and Cobra who insisted on doing nothing but pound away at each other at close range while consume SCB charges, then the Cobra is probably going to win. However, out of more than 100 encounters that led to me exchanging fire with other CMDRs, I have never been in this, or any other "Mexican standoff" type situation, I've always had options, and I've always done my best to leverage them to my advantage.

I've won more than a few PvP engagements because I was willing to kite the other player(s) around until his or her ammo, or patience, was largely depleted before I decided to move in for the kill.

[video=youtube;tY3xuv54s3o]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tY3xuv54s3o[/video]

Even more often, I wait until my opponent is otherwise engaged, preferably already damaged, before committing to an attack. I suspect a significant minority of my CMDR kills (mostly in conflict zones) never knew another player was attacking them.

Very rarely, I am backed into the proverbial corner, but even then, I can adapt my tactics more effectively than just circle and see who runs out of SCBs faster.

 

[dioogio]

Even more often, I wait until my opponent is otherwise engaged, preferably already damaged, before committing to an attack. I suspect a significant minority of my CMDR kills (mostly in conflict zones) never knew another player was attacking them.

Wow... A self confessed snake in the grass/back stabber.... Hope I never find you skulking around when I'm otherwise engaged!

 

[BlueFalcon]

According to the stats the viper is faster but in practice the cobra is faster. The cobra can boost so often than it can outrun almost every ship in the game. The only ship that might be able to is the clipper but I haven't tested that yet. This speed advantage is the main reason I still use the cobra over other ships for pirating. This speed advantage also lets you control the range which is huge in my opinion. With the speed advantage you dictate the range of an engagement and you control if a fight even happens.

 

[CMDR Reza Malin]

It's pretty simple:

Viper
- cheaper and often acquired before cobra
- combat orientated; multi-role suffers
- short (comparatively) jump range
- better spread of hard points
- faster (often underestimated point)
- more manoeuvrable (same on paper but being smaller and lighter makes a difference)

Cobra
- more expensive
- multi-role ship with decent combats ability
- larger, more internals


Summary
- viper is slightly better than cobra for pure combat
- cobra is "better" in all other areas because it is a multi-role ship
- cobra's larger size and more internals allow a specialist combat build that rivals the viper

Why would you buy a Viper over a Cobra?
- because you don't have enough money for a cobra
- because you want a pure combat ship (but you could still do this with a cobra)

Why would you buy a cobra over a viper?
- because you can afford to

The ships are two of the earliest you can buy, ergo their buy price (and equipment price) is the main reason why you would choose the viper first.

I have flown both ships, for a decent period of time. I agree 100% with this comment right here. This is the OP query answered. One other thing worth mentioning, is the cobra costs more to maintain. Repairs, refuelling, and rebuy are all significantly more than a viper especially if you upgrade it with regards to rebuy....

 

[Erik the Viking]

I have flown both ships, for a decent period of time. I agree 100% with this comment right here. This is the OP query answered. One other thing worth mentioning, is the cobra costs more to maintain. Repairs, refuelling, and rebuy are all significantly more than a viper especially if you upgrade it with regards to rebuy....

So buy the Cobra as soon as I can?

 

[Cortana]

If you are interested in anything else than combat, buy a Cobra.

I hope there will be a pure combat ship for 2-3M CR in near future. Will stick with my Viper till then.

 

[TheArtist]

i have been surfing through this forum and reddit, reading all those different threads about cobra vs viper. Unfortunatly, most of those threads are mostly based on the following sentences "viper is the better fighter", "cobra is good for longer travel" or stuff like "Cobra doesnt overheat that much".

*facedesk* Not again. Please, for gods sake....