This need saying...

Nice try at moving the goal posts. The obssesionb comes from the comment that you made that you can play the way you want as long as it involves trading.



No one is stopping you play however you want when you want, you could only feel forced to trade if you are "obssesed" with credits and/or "Progessing".

I play to have fun, progression is a part of that, but most of the fun comes iherently from the activity of just playing the game. Playing just to progress, that really sounds like work

Cute. So now im moving the goalposts even though they are goalposts you created. Amazing strawman you have there.

So you play to have fun. I play to have fun, hence not wanting to trade. Yet your rewards are 10 times mine. How, in any sense, is that fair and balanced gameplay?
 
Cute. So now im moving the goalposts even though they are goalposts you created. Amazing strawman you have there.

So you play to have fun. I play to have fun, hence not wanting to trade. Yet your rewards are 10 times mine. How, in any sense, is that fair and balanced gameplay?

Cmon son, no way did I create the goal posts or move them, and strawmanning, oh please. I very accurately summarized your position.

Some people might find trading fun, but it is inherently a more grindy repetitive game play mode than others, go a to b, repeat. I think its fair to say that going pew pew is inherently more fun. As I have said countless times, the less rewarding something is in fun terms the more it should pay in arbitratry actually worthless credits. Fun is a much more tangible thing than a million in game credits.

This is also all ignoring the fact that loads of traders complain that they cant make any money and should just go bounty hunting instead.
 
Cute. So now im moving the goalposts even though they are goalposts you created. Amazing strawman you have there.

So you play to have fun. I play to have fun, hence not wanting to trade. Yet your rewards are 10 times mine. How, in any sense, is that fair and balanced gameplay?


Why do you care what other people are doing/earning?

One of my favourite Twitch streamers never trades, he is just pew pew all the way. He has plenty of fun, plenty of money, and laughs when people tell him how much they can make trading.

Why? Because what other people are doing/earning is of no consequence to his enjoyment of the game.

I wonder why it is so important to you?
 
To be fair Nav beacons arent very good for bounties...I often make 100k in half an hour at resource extraction sites and there is often 2 or 3 of them close together to hop between. Trading is by far the easiest and most consistant way to make credits but I cant spend more than an hour doing milk runs before I need a little action/exploration thrown in so realistically I doubt I'll have any big ship toys to play with for a long time yet...lucky for me i'm fine with that
 
I've played from release fumbling about making a few credits trading and bounty hunting here and there then I found a link to a trade tool and bingo, dropped the bounty USS nonsense and started trading and the credits are rolling in. Shame I had to stumble across a third party toll to make any decent financial progress in the game.

Just my 2 pennies worth.

I use only data I travelled to collect and record and am making enough credits to satisfy me.
For me using other peoples data is in line with getting someone else to level you up in wow.
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Elite has always been primarily a trading game where finding those trade routes is part of the experience. It was always a trading game with combat woven into it, unfortunately the way ED is written they have mostly become separate entities which is my main gripe with ED, it is partially segmented.
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Third party programs are not required to find decent routes, flying those routes is. Using third party data just seems to be using Elite as stock market as opposed to a trading game. Elite is not about how much you have, or how fast you get it, it is about the experience which unfortunately, at the moment, could do with an injection of social tools and unpredictability not more predictability by using third party info.
 
Cmon son, no way did I create the goal posts or move them, and strawmanning, oh please. I very accurately summarized your position.
No, you took my question as to why one career choice pays 10 times more than another one and accused me of being obsessed by it, which is simply untrue.

Some people might find trading fun, but it is inherently a more grindy repetitive game play mode than others, go a to b, repeat. I think its fair to say that going pew pew is inherently more fun. As I have said countless times, the less rewarding something is in fun terms the more it should pay in arbitratry actually worthless credits. Fun is a much more tangible thing than a million in game credits.
Again I disagree. Balancing a game around how “grindy” something is just makes no sense. Balance should be around how hard/risky something is. Not how much it sends your glass eye to sleep. If trading had some risk involved then yeah I could take your point. However I’m told by a friend who has played since gamma that biggest risk to trading is docking accidents as he doesn’t run shield due to escaping NPCs being trivially easy.
This is also all ignoring the fact that loads of traders complain that they cant make any money and should just go bounty hunting instead.
Ok, now that is interesting! Could you link me said statements please?

Why do you care what other people are doing/earning?

One of my favourite Twitch streamers never trades, he is just pew pew all the way. He has plenty of fun, plenty of money, and laughs when people tell him how much they can make trading.

Why? Because what other people are doing/earning is of no consequence to his enjoyment of the game.

I wonder why it is so important to you?

Its not important, I’m just trying to understand why its 10 orders of magnitude more profitable(i.e player progession) than bounty hunting! I hear its about 5 times more profitable than mining and exploration. Am I honestly in the minority in wanting to know why that is the case?
 
I am also not using a trading tool, on purpose.

I like to take my time, and have no issue with only earning a few credits here and there. I do what I feel like - recently I have been doing some combat which surprised me a lot, as I generally suck at it (but I am getting better). This seems to pay ok, assuming you do not get killed. Then I might stop that for a bit and take on a few missions. Then swap out my Cobra for the Type-6, which I am still upgrading, and do some trading. Changing tasks like this keeps it interesting for me. I still have to get a good exploring/mining rig too, and I would not mind getting into an Asp, they look nice! So, still plenty for me to do, but like I said, I'm in no hurry. The journey is the reward.
 
Little advice for bored traders

Hi there!

I have to admit - at some point in the game i got into tradegrinding (and still am - cause it's the easiest way to finally get a geared up ASP to explore the universe - got wife, Kids and work...). Guess it could be better, but i'm doing 140K in 2 Jumps - not much time in Supercruise, cause Stations are near Stars. I noticed that i can't go with this playstyle longer than an hour - It get's boring pretty quick.
So i searched for an altenitive way which alows me to get some fun AND earn a comparative good amount of money. I found: Bounty hunting. Depending on the System you're in, there appear to get serious bad guys in at the Navpoint. I found a System where continuesly (after a little while) wanted ASPs jump in - also other Ships - but that ASPs come in frequently and always pay out for 30-60k. In that System im doing nearly the same amount of Money as on my traderoute - it's riskier (i painfully noticed) and you'll have to spend some Creds into repairs & Ammo - but it's an ok income comparable to my traderuns.
It's over all not as fast in gaining Creds than trading - but a good way to not fall into a boring grind-thing.
Btw - Mining is not for me - i want tractor beams! - or at least my Cargobay-doors three times as big they are...
 
No, you took my question as to why one career choice pays 10 times more than another one and accused me of being obsessed by it, which is simply untrue.

Really, you are going to try the exact same goal post shift again?????? Really?

I actually quoted the statement you made about how you can play anyway you want, as long as it involves trading. Thats not even a question, ok? I was not even responding to a question. Stop goal post shifting by referring to "the question."

That statement only makes sense in light of being overly concerned/obsessed with credits/progression.
 
So a thread to tell everyone that you started succeeding once you used a third party tool to cheat. Nice.

It's comments like this which make wonder why i play this game.

For a start it's not cheating. We are after all talking about the year 3300. Humanity has worked out faster than light travel, and you're telling me that a trade calculator between systems wouldn't exist? We have that technology now for crying out loud, i'm sure the space travellers from the year 3300 would also have it.

It's not cheating in any way and to suggest otherwise just shows how narrow minded some people are, as i've mentioned already, this technology exists today, in the real world :mad:
 
Really, you are going to try the exact same goal post shift again?????? Really?

I actually quoted the statement you made about how you can play anyway you want, as long as it involves trading. Thats not even a question, ok? I was not even responding to a question. Stop goal post shifting by referring to "the question."

That statement only makes sense in light of being overly concerned/obsessed with credits/progression.

From my original post, in this very thread.

Why does one career choice pay 10 times more than another?
 
I disagree. I have a job already and I wont spend my free time doing something I dont enjoy.

The whole slogan of playing this game how you want should be ammended to include 'as long as thats trading'

Unless you go bounty hunting and are not terrible. -1 rep for being the self-appointed forum police and referring to your credits as "isk"
 
Indeed.

A freind of mine lost his type 6 (with full hold) while we were on skype at the weekend. Insurance gave him his ship back but left him no spare ISK. He sold his sheilds and weapons and within 2 hours was sitting on 2.5 million.

I was sat at a nav beacon in my 2.5 million Cobra, I made 260,000 in the same 2 hours.

Given my play time limitations if I ever want to get a Python im going to have trade, something I have no interest in doing as it just feels like a second job to me.

Why does one career choice pay 10 times more than another?

Speaking as someone who went from exploring (super early phase) to bounty hunting to (just last night) trading, a good chunk of that lucrative nature only really kicks in during the Type 6 and above; I gravitated towards bounty hunting because I just wasn't getting the same cash flow trying to hoof it in a Hauler as I was blowing up Cobras, Vipers, etc, etc. It was only after a few days, (and a lucky streak of taking out three Wanted Anacondas with LOTS of NPC help,) that I raised the two million in total assets (after trading in my Viper) to start bulk trading.

The thing is, it isn't solely about grind, but there are instead two issues that largely explain the income gap.

First, trading is consistent. You find a route, you get x amount of profit, and as long as the supply versus demand ratio remains more or less steady, you will continue to make x amount of profit, whatever that amount may be. The only way to improve your fortunes, as it were, is to explore new potential sources, which MIGHT find you a better route, but might just waste your time; as long as you stick to the same route, though, you'll make the same money. Bounty Hunting, given it seems to greatly rely on random generation insofar as NPC ships go, is significantly less consistent in terms of what you get. I had one day where I lucked out into finding THREE Anacondas, in just one resource field, coming one after another, all with big fat bounties and plenty of NPC allies around to whittle it down. End of the day, thanks to a steady stream of 8-20k bounties in the same region, I made close to seven hundred and fifty thousand credits in the space of a couple of hours, all bounty hunting.

Fast forward to the next day, all I seemed to be able to find were Eagles, Sidewinders, the occasional Cobra or Transport, the bounties low-to-mid, nothing special. Lucky if I cleared even two hundred thousand that entire day. Bounty Hunting, you're at the mercy of whether the server wants to give you a solid stream of bounties. Trading, you know exactly what you're going to get for the amount of time you put in, and if you don't think it's enough, you could always strike out and try to find a better deal.

Second is the theoretical concept of risk, (though, to be fair, interdictions seem to be a lot less frequent now than they were when I first started playing a week ago,) in that if I get blown up in my Viper, I pay the insurance cost of around fifty to seventy thousand, which is a minor ouch, and lose unclaimed bounties, which could be a bigger one. But that's a pretty major if, because my Viper can usually outfight whatever it can't outrun, and if worse comes to worse, I just spam the boost, dodge and weave, and throw chaff like confetti until I can supercruise the heck out of there. The only times I've died, it's literally been because of my own idiocy, a stupid action I did, rather than being bested by the skill of another player or NPC.

On the other hand, if my type 6 gets blown up, I not only pay the higher insurance cost, but I obviously lose anything that was in the cargo hold; when I first started trading in the type 6, it was gold, meaning that death meant I'd be a million in the hole, with a profit of only about a hundred thousand per trip. (I say 'only' because it means it would take me ten trips to safely absorb the losses of losing my ship and cargo.) And given that thing is, and I say this with all the love I can muster, a slow, weak, lumbering elephant that even a marginally skilled played with a mid-tier Cobra could take out, an encounter turning into my death is MUCH more likely if I can't evade the Interdiction. In theory, the high payout is intended to balance the high risk, along with the serious repercussions of things going south.

Now, I said CONCEPT of risk. Because just like any reasonably knowledgeable fighter can take out a ship that outclasses him with sneaky tactics, any reasonably knowledgeable trader can minimize the risk to his ship; in my case, by finding an optimal route with a high return. Unlike the OP, I did it by literally flying around in a wee little Sidewinder with a notepad and looking for a worthwhile route, until I finally stumbled on the motherload, the culmination of hours of searching that was a product more of a lucky break than a predestined outcome. My trading route is just one jump, and after that jump I remain in supercruise in the system for forty seconds, fifty at most, before reaching the station. Twenty one hundred credits roundtrip profit per unit, so after roughly ten minutes it's a profit of two hundred and ten thousand credits.

Sucks to not be able to make that much that quickly in bounties? Yup, probably so. xP But before I found the optimal route, I was doing exposed, bloated runs that could have financially ruined me. Heck, my first flight out, I spent so much on cargo, I had JUST enough left to pay ship insurance if I got killed, and all my cargo ship's gear was E grade, so no trading down for capital. Let me tell you, that three jump trip was the tensest, most nerve wracking time I'd ever had playing this game. x_x Took a dozen runs before I even started to relax.
 
I've played from release fumbling about making a few credits trading and bounty hunting here and there then I found a link to a trade tool and bingo, dropped the bounty USS nonsense and started trading and the credits are rolling in. Shame I had to stumble across a third party toll to make any decent financial progress in the game.

Just my 2 pennies worth.

Meh!

And this is what the EVE spreadsheet mentality has wrought to games, never ending 3rd party utilities to chase some illusionary "top" that they think they are getting too. A place where everything is meaningless and boredom sets in, a place where it's all about ego and who use that ego to wreck the game whilst claiming, "I'm playing it my way". I really do get why there is an ever increasing group of people playing in the private groups, experiencing the game, RP and story without the metagame and over bloated egos. :rolleyes:
 
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for me figuring out good trade routes are part of the fun but glad you found the tools to allow you to have fun as well.

I'm with you on figuring stuff out for oneself but one of the problems is that the system information and trade info you get via cartographics in game is not accurate. I'd prefer a world without trade tools but they are here to stay. The good thing of course is that you can find your own areas that are not listed on the trade tools.

When it comes to making money in the game I'm afraid I have to agree with the OP to a degree. Hoping from one USS to another searching for stuff is probably one of the weakest areas of the game at present. Still, ED is in its infancy and I look forward to seeing how the game is developed and improved over time.
 
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Guys right now the game is a bunch of systems that are all the same, filled with ships that are all the same (that say the same stuff). Nothing changes combat wise no matter where you go. There is no progression, there is no escalation of difficulty. You just go shoot the same random ships over and over. Conflict zones are generic and uninspired and as a final fick in the nuts, a complete waste of time profit wise. There's very little to do combat wise in Elite.

Trading is buy at one place and sell it at another. Again, it's only the most bare bones implementation of an economy. The thing is, when trading you can get bigger and bigger cargo storage, so your profits scale extremely well. This can't happen with combat as it's hardly even implemented into the game.

At this very early feeling stage of the game, Trading is the only way to make money that scales. It's not bad balance, the game is just nowhere near complete. Strictly speaking, yes it's currently completely unbalanced. I just hope this is the case because there will be more to do for combat that isn't implemented yet.
 
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<wise words/>

Finally! Someone who can answer a question without getting defensive and snarky!

Thank you so much for taking the time to type that out, I think i now have a better understanding of the income disparity.

So, given that you have clearly done both professions to reasonable degree, would you say that the payouts between the two (given risk/capital investment and time) are fair and equitable in your opinion?
 
Indeed.

A freind of mine lost his type 6 (with full hold) while we were on skype at the weekend. Insurance gave him his ship back but left him no spare ISK. He sold his sheilds and weapons and within 2 hours was sitting on 2.5 million.

I was sat at a nav beacon in my 2.5 million Cobra, I made 260,000 in the same 2 hours.

Given my play time limitations if I ever want to get a Python im going to have trade, something I have no interest in doing as it just feels like a second job to me.

Why does one career choice pay 10 times more than another?

Please note how I dont call you obsessed after your first post:

Why does the play style that seems like a grind pay more? Seems like the answer is in the question.

Credits earnt inversely related to fun had seems like a good game design to me, as at least the player is always being rewarded in some manner.

Now comes the statement you keep trying to move the goal posts from:

I disagree. I have a job already and I wont spend my free time doing something I dont enjoy.

The whole slogan of playing this game how you want should be ammended to include 'as long as thats trading'



No one is stopping you playing the game the way you do enjoy/want. Its your obsession with an arbitrary score counter that is causing the problem.

Trading is a more sedate, grindy way to play the game so it rewards in credits, other ways of playing reward via fun itself, via the activitity itself.

So yea, perhaps try being being more intellectually honest in future.

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Its also worth pointing out that BH pays a lot more than trading in the early and mid game.
 
No one is stopping you playing the game the way you do enjoy/want. Its your obsession with an arbitrary score counter that is causing the problem.

Trading is a more sedate, grindy way to play the game so it rewards in credits, other ways of playing reward via fun itself, via the activitity itself.

So the more boring something is, the more it should pay?

Yeah, no. The game is just a shell currently, that's why there is nothing to do combat wise. Making risk vs reward intentionally backwards is terrible design.
 
So the more boring something is, the more it should pay?

Yeah, no. The game is just a shell currently, that's why there is nothing to do combat wise. Making risk vs reward intentionally backwards is terrible design.

Well given the trader has to risk his uninsured cargo on every trip and the BH only has to risk his insurance, and given the fact that BH is for the most part, shooting fish in the barrel, you are not even making the case that BH is more risky.

And as reward goes, actual visceral fun is a much bigger reward objectively than worthless virtual credits.

A job that no one wants to do because its so boring and involves massive entry costs and risk to capital should pay very well.
 
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