Silent Running in Combat ...to hinder target lock

[Yodafone]

Work in progress...

If you haven't seen my previous threads concerning this subject, I have been experimenting with Silent Running deployment during combat, to try and hinder a hostile's turrets/gimbal/missile ability to keep target lock. Since my first initial thread, and particularly after dev Sandro Sammarco posted a description of how Silent Running works and what actually contributes to its effectiveness on this thread, this was extremely helpful to actually learn the rules and coding behind this subject and its' possible application, particularly using Silent Running in combat.

After much discussion and trial and error (plus a bit of help from a faithful subscriber on my tube channel), I have certainly made great progress in getting this to work, so there really is an alternative counter to turrets, gimbals and missiles, instead of having to fit a Chaff Launcher or ECM and fill one of the few Utility slots we have on most ships (usually only 2, so fitting a chaff, leaves only one utility slot which considerably restricts your activity, trying to choose between any of the 3 other scanner types and Heat Sink Launcher). This exersise demonstrated below does not render these Chaff or ECM as surplas to requirement tools, as they can be deployed with active shields, so are a further advantage over using Silent Running like I have below.

As sensors use heat signature to resolve a target blip on radar and subsequently enable turrets to target lock, one should try to keep beyond sensor auto-resolve radar distance (on a target like a Pirate Lord is quite far with good sensors presumably, so beyond 1-1.5km). Also if not using Silent Running, one needs to keep your ship's heat signature as low as possible, which also can help to increase this auto-resolve distance (so you can obviously get closer and make contact with weapons on the target effectively), and particularly, fit Kinetic hardpoints throughout so ship's internal heat barely climbs whilst firing. I also turn any module off that is surplas to requirements during combat, so in the end if I activate Silent Running or not, the remaining modules I have switched on are Thrusters, Sensors & Heat Sink Launcher, & weapons of course, for improved heat management to reduce my heat signature further still, and the longevity of Silent Running.

So practicing and combining these precedents at once, really is an effective tactic to try and hinder auto tracking weapons, when you'd prefer to stay in a fire fight instead of turning tail to bug out, once your shields have collapsed.

I do need to work on my Heat Sink deployment timing, to reduce my signature quickly at the right moment, as in this particular battle, most of my hull was lost from the two missiles that made contact. Other than this, I had lost little hull damage as the turrets made little contact during the moments I had successfully practiced all the stipulations listed above at once.

Thanks for reading, and I hope this will help anyone who is interested in additional combat tactics. Cmdr Lancer

[video=youtube;F6YWoazRGbI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6YWoazRGbI&list=UUyN1Fc9WYQ_P1RRu2xUzeYg[/video]

 

[fergal]

Very interesting.
Makes putting the best armour and worst shield on a ship more viable as a different load out strategy to just getting all A equipment.

How does the heat form the power plant work? Does the A4 produce more than a D3 for example? The kinetic weapons don't need much power, and with a worse shield that would also save power needs.

I wonder if each ship has an inherent heat signature, or if its 100% based on their loadouts.

 

[ste]

To be honest it doesnt seem worth it. I reckon you might have took less damage if you just stuck to how you were doing it in the first place.



Is that the standard hud colour? I changed mine and want it back the way it was and not sure I did it right.

 

[Kyle Brennan]

Turning off shields is counter productive. Especially if you are in a Cobra and fighting an Anaconda, takes a lot more time than you have heat-sinks.

 

[Perjoss]

Very interesting.
Makes putting the best armour and worst shield on a ship more viable as a different load out strategy to just getting all A equipment.

How does the heat form the power plant work? Does the A4 produce more than a D3 for example? The kinetic weapons don't need much power, and with a worse shield that would also save power needs.

I wonder if each ship has an inherent heat signature, or if its 100% based on their loadouts.

I read somewhere and also noticed from personal experience that the cobra runs pretty cold compared to other ships, i've only flown all ships below the asp in terms of cost apart from the viper though.

 

[Morbad]

How does the heat form the power plant work? Does the A4 produce more than a D3 for example? The kinetic weapons don't need much power, and with a worse shield that would also save power needs.

PP doesn't produce heat, it's "heat efficiency" rating seems to shows how much it can dissipate.

All other things being equal a D3 PP will mean your ship is running quite a bit hotter than if you had an A4, or probably even an A2, because it's efficiency rating is worse.

As sensors use heat signature to resolve a target blip on radar and subsequently enable turrets to target lock, one should try to keep beyond sensor auto-resolve radar distance (on a target like a Pirate Lord is quite far with good sensors presumably, so beyond 1-1.5km). Also one needs to keep your ship's heat signature as low as possible even whilst using Silent Running to help increase this auto-resolve distance (so you can get closer and make contact with weapons on the target effectively), and particularly, fit Kinetic hardpoints throughout so ship's internal heat barely climbs whilst firing. I also turn any module off that is surplas to requirements during combat, so in the end when I activate Silent Running, the remaining modules I have switched on are Thrusters, Sensors & Heat Sink Launcher, & weapons of course, for improved heat management and reduce my heat signature further still.

You should have the same heat signature to sensors while silent running regardless of your heat percentage.

Silent running closes off your radiators, so heat builds up, but you are as invisible while silent running no matter if you have 0% or 150% heat level.

Heat signature matters for detection in normal, non-silent running mode.

 

[Yodafone]

To be honest it doesnt seem worth it. I reckon you might have took less damage if you just stuck to how you were doing it in the first place.



Is that the standard hud colour? I changed mine and want it back the way it was and not sure I did it right.

Hi ste, most of my hull was lost from the two missiles that struck me, I simply didn't time my heat sink launching very well to reduce my signature in time, so is still work in progress. I totally agree this is not a primary tactic, but as my shields had failed, and wanted an opportunity to continue testing this SR during combat, it presented itself. Remember this was against one of the hardest npc targets, so any success should be multiplied against lessor more average foes. This is why I did say additional combat tactics, perhaps even if your shield module has failed completely, and want to stay in the fight.

No this is not the standard HUD colour, I pretty much reduced red to make the blue & green pop and increased hud brightness. Mine is currently set to: RED 0.3,0,0 / GREEN 0,0.5,0 / BLUE 0,0,1. Just replace them all back to 1 if you want it standard.

Thanks for your comments ste, Lancer

 

[Yodafone]

You should have the same heat signature to sensors while silent running regardless of your heat percentage.

Silent running closes off your radiators, so heat builds up, but you are as invisible while silent running no matter if you have 0% or 150% heat level.

Heat signature matters for detection in normal, non-silent running mode.

Hi morbad. Even with Silent Running engaged if you are within this auto resolve distance, (so with these targets - Pirate Lords with very good Sensors is a fair distance) I figured this out on my previous attempt, is still quite far away, beyond 1km. I'm presuming no amount of Silent Running is going to help when the heat climbs to such a point it starts conducting through the ship itself, so closing rad vents can't really help anymore, certainly not to hinder radar resolve.

Here's what Sandro wrote with the two main stipulations, copied & pasted from his response on my first thread.

There are two caveats to silent running benefits:

A) when your ship gets very close to another vessel its sensors will be able to detect you even if you are rigged for silent running. This auto-resolve distance is normally around two to three hundred metres.

B) ships can be fitted with more powerful sensors that increase the distance that they can detect you, and that can push the auto-resolve distance out to around five hundred metres or more (good sensors are the silent runner's worst nightmare).

This is why I ran Silent Running at a great distance beyond 1km, and intended to keep my heat signature down by good heat management. Just need to work on my timely Heat Sink launching as the two missiles that hit me were the only real significant hull damage I received.

Thanks for your comments Morbad, Lancer

 

[Yodafone]

Turning off shields is counter productive. Especially if you are in a Cobra and fighting an Anaconda, takes a lot more time than you have heat-sinks.

I agree completely, perhaps I didn't explain my thread particularly well in this regard. This of course should NOT be used as a primary tactic, it is an additional combat tactic (which I did say) that could be used if you don't like the idea of bugging out a fight and turning tail when it's not going your way, to perhaps finish a target off when you can't wait for your shields to recharge.

However that said these tactics should have greater success against a lessor foe with average Sensors. Let's not forget this is a Pirate Lord, well armed and well equiped, and most of the damage I received was from the two missiles that made contact (need to work on my timely heat sink launching), but needed to demonstate against one of the hardest npc opponents as a maximum extremity. Should have more success against a lessor foe.

Thanks for your comments Kyle, Lancer

 

[Remiel]

For the record, if you do it right, this works brilliantly if your objective is to escape an interdiction unharmed (or unscanned for that matter). I'm currently exploring in an Eagle, no shields, and got interdicted by an Asp. I instantly submitted, and once I came out of supercruise, I put my throttle to full, all power to ENG, hit the boost, cut flight assist and set up a Crazy Ivan spiral (full left roll, left yaw, and left lateral thrusters), all within a couple of seconds at most. Once I'd done that, I hit silent mode, and cut engines. With flight assist off, my ship kept moving at the same speed away from the Asp, and I never even saw his blip blink with an attack once. No weapons fire to speak of.

However, this isn't 100% guaranteed. If I'd been the Asp pilot, and had someone do that, I'd switch to the good ol' fashioned Mk.I Eyeball and do what I could to hit my target without getting a signal lock, depending on my loadout. But for me, on the receiving end in the faster ship, I escaped the interdiction without a scratch. No shields and no throttle = very slow heat buildup.

 

[Morbad]

There are two caveats to silent running benefits:

A) when your ship gets very close to another vessel its sensors will be able to detect you even if you are rigged for silent running. This auto-resolve distance is normally around two to three hundred metres.

B) ships can be fitted with more powerful sensors that increase the distance that they can detect you, and that can push the auto-resolve distance out to around five hundred metres or more (good sensors are the silent runner's worst nightmare).

Yeah, and this is independent of heat level. You can be really hot and still not auto resolve, or even appear at all, on sensors past a certain short distance.

However, NPCs (and players, obviously) can engage you at much greater distances if you are in their field of view.

 

[Yodafone]

Here's what Sandro wrote with the two main stipulations, copied & pasted from his response on my first thread.

There are two caveats to silent running benefits:

A) when your ship gets very close to another vessel its sensors will be able to detect you even if you are rigged for silent running. This auto-resolve distance is normally around two to three hundred metres.

B) ships can be fitted with more powerful sensors that increase the distance that they can detect you, and that can push the auto-resolve distance out to around five hundred metres or more (good sensors are the silent runner's worst nightmare).

Yeah, and this is independent of heat level. You can be really hot and still not auto resolve, or even appear at all, on sensors past a certain short distance.

However, NPCs (and players, obviously) can engage you at much greater distances if you are in their field of view.

Ok, to be honest I'd like clarification on this. I understand heat build-up internally is different to your current heat signature, but they are of course directly related. However, with you saying varied ship temperatures whilst running Silent Running will result in the same heat signature, I'm not sure is true, because from what Ive learnt, particularly from my previous experiment to this one, was even when I had SR engaged, the higher my internal heat built up, started to reduce its effectiveness, and my target's turrets were starting to be able to lock on to me again the higher my temperature became, even though my distance from him was the same (more or less), and like I say still had SR engaged.

At first, before I started these experiments, I also thought the same, but in practice it seems current ship's heat percentage does has an effect on your signature, even when running SR. Although... when engaging SR, the heat signature waveform display is replaced with the Silent Running warning light, to suggest it isn't relevant. But like I say in actual practice it does seem relevant, certainly with effective ship heat management down in the low 10-20% and you're running with Silent Running, you're pretty much unhittable with auto tracking hardpoints.

It's almost as if there is a crossover at some point that negates SR's use, once you get beyond a certain internal temperature that no amount of shutting rad vents can help with anymore, which to me does sound logical, as this heat will sure conduct elsewhere and still escape somehow. This does makes sense to me because surely the higher the heat becomes, can surely not be kept internal just by shutting radiator vents, it will surely conduct throughout the rest of the ship. I suppose to say negating its use at these higher temps is not completely justified, because at these very high temps, as soon as you disengage SR, you really will light up like a christmas tree, so a dilemma presents itself.

Good discussion Morbad, food for thought for sure! Lancer

 

[Remiel]

AFAIK, the reason ship heat is not a factor for being picked up in silent mode is because in silent mode, you're no longer venting heat, which is part of the reason you become so hard to detect in the first place. You might build up a lot of internal heat, but because it's no longer venting, you don't present an effective signature.

 

[Morbad]

It may have been changed or NPCs may react differently, but I never saw a perceptible change in detection range when fighting other CMDRs who were silent running for protracted periods, even comparing between times when they had been moving rapidly and firing high-heat weapons, and moments after they dumped a heat sink.

It's almost as if there is a crossover at some point that negates SR's use, once you get beyond a certain internal temperature that no amount of shutting rad vents can help with anymore, which to me does sound logical, as this heat will sure conduct elsewhere and still escape somehow. This does makes sense to me because surely the higher the heat becomes, can surely not be kept internal just by shutting radiator vents, it will surely conduct throughout the rest of the ship.

If you shut off all systems possible, and engage silent running, your heat will still climb, which suggests the ships are quite well insulated, apart from the radiators.

I think it's just as plausible to have a minimal heat signature right up until the point the vessel starts to fall apart, but again, I'd need to test to be sure.

 

[Yodafone]

AFAIK, the reason ship heat is not a factor for being picked up in silent mode is because in silent mode, you're no longer venting heat, which is part of the reason you become so hard to detect in the first place. You might build up a lot of internal heat, but because it's no longer venting, you don't present an effective signature.

If you shut off all systems possible, and engage silent running, your heat will still climb, which suggests the ships are quite well insulated, apart from the radiators.

I think it's just as plausible to have a minimal heat signature right up until the point the vessel starts to fall apart, but again, I'd need to test to be sure.

Perhaps you are both right and I'm simply imagining SR's effectiveness at the time whilst in combat with varying internal heat percentages. It is of course very hard to gauge and learn these things precisely during battles against varied foes at different times. More testing needed, if I am wrong and Silent Running results in the same heat signature no matter what your temperature is I'll let you know, and try to demonstrate it.

What ever the result and truths, keeping heat management under control, of course, enables the Silent Running to last longer, so all my experiments and skills I've learnt aren't going to waste. If anything it will make things easier as I won't be so pre-occupied with my current ship's heat percentage.

Thanks to you both Remiel & Morbad

Lancer

 

[Degsy]

Threads like this are the only reason why I still look at the forums. Really interesting and this game is ace because there are so many ways to play it. I look forward to further news on your experiment: keep up the good work.

 

[fergal]

I did a quick experiment just to see for myself what happens with silent running.

Another player in a cobra had me on "radar". He had C sensors, not sure if the cobra takes size 3 or 4.

I engaged silent running, didn't do anything else, no module shutdown, no heat sinks.

He could resolve me (and have his gimballed weapons track me) at about 900 m - 1 km.

I didn't do this for long, just flew around at different distances.

 

[Yodafone]

I did a quick experiment just to see for myself what happens with silent running.

Another player in a cobra had me on "radar". He had C sensors, not sure if the cobra takes size 3 or 4.

I engaged silent running, didn't do anything else, no module shutdown, no heat sinks.

He could resolve me (and have his gimballed weapons track me) at about 900 m - 1 km.

I didn't do this for long, just flew around at different distances.

Made a mistake, so as not to confuse anything have deleted my reply here. Please check below for my revised comment.

 

[Yodafone]

I did a quick experiment just to see for myself what happens with silent running.

Another player in a cobra had me on "radar". He had C sensors, not sure if the cobra takes size 3 or 4.

I engaged silent running, didn't do anything else, no module shutdown, no heat sinks.

He could resolve me (and have his gimballed weapons track me) at about 900 m - 1 km.

I didn't do this for long, just flew around at different distances.

Sorry forgive me, missread the bit you said you became a resolved contact at 1km, thought you meant you were still a resolved contact beyond 1km.

Either way, with just C sensors, and still to have to get to that distance sounds very extreme. I have a guess that you could get closer if your ship's internal heat was lower thus reducing your signature, and still be an unresolved contact, or Sensors are a lot more effective than first thought.

Thanks for testing this fergal, it adds to the research for sure, Ive yet to be in the same place as another cmdr willing to test any of this as yet.

Cheers mate, Lancer

 

[Yodafone]

Fergal, something to clarify actually. You say his Cobra's sensors were C3, this is the max Cobra's can take, but which rating were they? This is the critical info actually, as if they were C3 A's for instance would dramatically improve his radar's ability, unless you meant C3 "C"s, and the size 3 or 4 was just a typo of some description?

Thanks again, Lancer