So you would be happy if one shot to your shield doesn't give a bounty. I try if I find you and then I will shoot on you every 10 seconds. How long will it take until you become annoyed?
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The "Friendly Fire" Issue
- Thread starter Bayaz
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Your "point" is a false comparison.
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He'd be even less happy if 8 other commanders laid 1 accidental shot on him each with railguns.
lets talk about NPCs first..
then about players.. NPC's wouldnt fire on purpose. and you are not solving the problem - your problem is the distinction of accidential fire and fire on purpose - its a completely different problem.
You are to exploit the system.
the actual system also is prone to exploitation: big ships that accidentially hit NPC will get killed (you can see this in roid fields.. you can then try to get the last shot).
Or you can wait till a guy accidentially hits an NPC and "righteous" kill him. this is lame.
I dont uderstand why anyone with a certain skill would need such exploits?
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Probably longer than it'd take you to be annoyed if someone perpetually intercepted your munitions specifically to get a bounty on your head.
Remiel
Banned
My 'comparison' to EVE wasn't a comparison, it was an example of why shooting non-hostiles should get you vapourised on sight, whether it was an accident or not. You're not getting it either? I'm not explaining it again, apply some brain power to it. But the counter that you can't make stray shots in EVE is irrelevant to addressing the effects of shooting non-hostiles under ANY circumstances. It's a red herring. Come up with something else.
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It wasn't a comparison, it was an example.
One last time, and I'll put it simply for the simple minded who aren't getting it - if you shoot a friendly by accident, you are effectively making them easier to kill for an enemy. That is, you are doing the enemy's job. And I will happily vape you on sight if you accidentally shot me. Even one stray multicannon round is enough for you to become a perceived threat.
Oh, and INB4 'but you have to specifically target someone in EVE'. Yes, and when there are 6000 ships on grid, accidentally targeting friendlies from the overview can and does happen. Hell, it only takes about 10-20 for the overview to become information overload.
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Frontier has to implement the ability to just tell an NPC "whoops, sorry didn't mean to hit you" and also have some sort of shots threshold before NPC engaged in combat against someone that's hostile to the player turn on him like in the X series or Privateer.
And while we are talking about NPC behaviour in combat zones, I'm really hoping Frontier will make it so that civilian and police ships of the same sub-faction of a Wanted ship will no longer turn hostile when I fire on the criminal, or at least get a bounty so that I can I can defend myself from their unwarranted attack without incurring in a bounty instead of having to run away to reset the instance.
I mean, civilian, non-wanted ships that fire on NPC ships that are defending me because I'm allied with their local sub-faction get a bounty (because, after all, they are firing on Clean ships) but when I'm the one defending myself I get a bounty.
It's just silly behaviour that we've had in since the faction system was first implemented that I hope will get ironed out.
And while we are talking about NPC behaviour in combat zones, I'm really hoping Frontier will make it so that civilian and police ships of the same sub-faction of a Wanted ship will no longer turn hostile when I fire on the criminal, or at least get a bounty so that I can I can defend myself from their unwarranted attack without incurring in a bounty instead of having to run away to reset the instance.
I mean, civilian, non-wanted ships that fire on NPC ships that are defending me because I'm allied with their local sub-faction get a bounty (because, after all, they are firing on Clean ships) but when I'm the one defending myself I get a bounty.
It's just silly behaviour that we've had in since the faction system was first implemented that I hope will get ironed out.
Yes. This. Please.
I will gladly pay for my mistake of hitting a friendly. Hell, make it more expensive to deter wild firing. It's just the "instant most wanted" status that gets my goat.
I think people are missing the greater point, which is...
How does accidental friendly fire affect the game as a whole, the player base as a whole?
We're talking about a matter of proportions here and its effects. If an accidental friendly fire generates an oversized punishment, then some players would cease performing that type of activity or would do it in the cheapest ship possible to minimize the punishment's effect. Some of those players would stop playing because they perceive that punishment to be unfairly disproportionate. After a long enough time, we'll see complaints about "nobody's doing that anymore, I feel so lonely around here". It's not what we want, as a whole.
Fines would successfully prove enough of a deterrent to prevent abuse, and those fines should be proportional to the value of ship being hit, weighted against the alpha damage of the shot. E.g if the ship I accidentally shot is worth 1M credits and took away 1% of its shields, the fine should be 10K credits. Of course, the exact formula is open for discussions and change, but it's at least a start.
If your toddler accidentally smashes that porcelain from grandma, you wouldn't chop his hand off, now, would you?
How does accidental friendly fire affect the game as a whole, the player base as a whole?
We're talking about a matter of proportions here and its effects. If an accidental friendly fire generates an oversized punishment, then some players would cease performing that type of activity or would do it in the cheapest ship possible to minimize the punishment's effect. Some of those players would stop playing because they perceive that punishment to be unfairly disproportionate. After a long enough time, we'll see complaints about "nobody's doing that anymore, I feel so lonely around here". It's not what we want, as a whole.
Fines would successfully prove enough of a deterrent to prevent abuse, and those fines should be proportional to the value of ship being hit, weighted against the alpha damage of the shot. E.g if the ship I accidentally shot is worth 1M credits and took away 1% of its shields, the fine should be 10K credits. Of course, the exact formula is open for discussions and change, but it's at least a start.
If your toddler accidentally smashes that porcelain from grandma, you wouldn't chop his hand off, now, would you?
Nope, wouldn't be a problem for me. I only shoot if I got a clear sight on my target.
I've been playing competitive fps for a long time. I learned that you can loose a match because of friendly fire and if you loose one match you can loose the whole tournament. So no friendly fire from my side.
Remiel
Banned
And then there are those of us who know how to fly and shoot, and don't hit anything we don't intend to. Your outcome assumes everyone is incompetent enough to get so many friendly fire incidents for that to happen. Thing is, all I'm seeing is people who would prefer to continue being that incompetent and change the game to suit said laziness, when in fact the way it works right now was the result of months of alpha, beta, and gamma testing from players and devs all brainstorming together for the best, least exploitable outcome possible.
I'm sorry but those saying "check your fire" and "if you shoot at a cop" are being rather unrealistic to the "reality" of what the game would be here.
I'm allied with the Feds, we are all ganging up on a pirate anaconda, one of the feds on full burn flies right in front of my beam lasers, there is really NOTHING I could do to prevent that sort of thing. I'm using a oculus, I as good a situational awareness as you can have in the game but stuff happens.
So I'm their friend and ally, they fly in front of ME, and I get a 200 wanted bounty which makes every one of them instantly attack me as if I just blew up one of their own. With shields its simply a ding to the paint here, no one was even remotely hurt. Its not like firing on a cop, or punching one, its like a cop walking in front of you while you were running and then pulling his gun to shoot ya when you bump him.
Reckless behavior SHOULD be punished, but it should take at least 2 incidents before they decide to kill you. A fine for the first one would make logical sense, especially if you are in high standing with the faction.
That being said its not THAT big a deal, its just annoying after a long supercruise.
I'm allied with the Feds, we are all ganging up on a pirate anaconda, one of the feds on full burn flies right in front of my beam lasers, there is really NOTHING I could do to prevent that sort of thing. I'm using a oculus, I as good a situational awareness as you can have in the game but stuff happens.
So I'm their friend and ally, they fly in front of ME, and I get a 200 wanted bounty which makes every one of them instantly attack me as if I just blew up one of their own. With shields its simply a ding to the paint here, no one was even remotely hurt. Its not like firing on a cop, or punching one, its like a cop walking in front of you while you were running and then pulling his gun to shoot ya when you bump him.
Reckless behavior SHOULD be punished, but it should take at least 2 incidents before they decide to kill you. A fine for the first one would make logical sense, especially if you are in high standing with the faction.
That being said its not THAT big a deal, its just annoying after a long supercruise.
I'd prefer a more realistic approach, after all the AI are supposed to be human pilots who would appreciate friendly fire is a possibility, but like humans wouldn't stand up for any bull***t. If you score a glancing hit (up to 1.5-2 seconds of sustained fire) You get a warning to check your fire, possibly a small fine along the lines of the current bounties, 2 or 3 strikes and they turn hostile and land you with a far heftier bounty than is currently in place, say 2 or 3 K. Attacking for a period of more than 1.5-2 seconds also results in immediate hostility and the same bounties. I don't think the current system is broken however, but a little more granulariy in the NPC reactions would breath a little life into encounters.
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Remiel
Banned
Situational awareness includes watching your radar. You can see them coming a mile away with that thing. It's also about knowing where stuff is in relation to you, knowing your environment. An average combat pilot can track four objects in his or her local aerospace, a good combat pilot can track eight or more. I can track six, and if I can track six without oculus, surely with your superior hardware that gives you the best situational awareness available you can track one.
A simple way to prevent that kind of abuse is to make railguns exempt from the changes and keep the instant bounty for them. Same for Plasma Accelerators and any other heavy hitting weapon. Turning everyone hostile over a stray laser or 1-2 multicannon bullets makes no sense, though. Especially not if you're "Allied" with the authorities. It'd even be alright to only give second chances if you're "Friendly" or higher with the faction, at least that way your reputation would at least make a difference.
This. If you don't want to watch your scanner and your fire, hunt in Anarchy systems. You can even scoop up the cargo that will always float around after half an hour of fighting for even more profit. Just be careful, it will become pretty hard once you've got cargo with you.
Damage threshold sounds like a good idea in addition to frequency and amount of hull damage.
I tend to focus a lot on the sensors while flying in and I've had two* cases where some authority Eagle on full burn pops out of nowhere, crosses across my flight path and gets hit before I had a chance to react.
Point being, even with situational awareness, experience and using fixed weaponry for their accuracy, it still happens and the AI reaction is rather excessive.
*Technically it happened a third time, but it was a straight collision that sent me spiralling, wondering what just happened.
Remiel
Banned
Damage thresholds have already been dismissed months before release as exploitative. And if that really happened, then you missed something on your radar.
What's the exploit, exactly?
My outcome assumes there are various people playing the game and each is better at something or worse at something. You have an elitist approach and I understand that, however if you design a game around top 10% players, the game design will be seen as incorrect by the other 90%. Simple math.
Of course, there's always the solution of beating someone senseless into becoming better, but fact of the matter is people would simply move on to other things rather than enduring that.
Okay, so some people are "incompetent" (I strongly disagree with that coinage but whatever). Please loosen YOUR grip a bit to accommodate their honest mistake.
Does not apply to the tired 50-year old who just came home from work. Or the disabled veteran who wants to relax.
Point is, people are different and punishing them for being who they are and not rising to your rather high standards bar does not equal stupidity. I, for example, have slow reflexes while playing games on my computer. I'm pretty good at tactical situations (e.g. World of Tanks) but I absolutely suck at twitch games (e.g. Counterstrike). I also sometimes suffer from tunnel vision while playing; I know my limits. Bashing me for not being the perfect player (as seemingly you are) is not nice.
The issue stands: the punishment is overly harsh for a majority of players and drives them away from an otherwise entertaining activity.
Would you rather have someone who is afraid of shooting than someone who shoots but is prone to making a small mistake every few hours?
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