Deconstructing boredom in ED (or why ED is too easy)

[Derath]

Except, in the current mechanics, he could only pick up about 30 before they self destructed. The repair bill after the interdiction would also be rather large, and he could make a lot more just trading it.

You're point is right though. NPC massive ships shouldn't care about the tiny ships flitting about, so that's one way of making the difficulty smoother. An NPC cobra would be potentially very dangerous to your sidewinder, but nothing bigger would bother with you.

lol you are quite correct the repair bill would be monstrous and you can only have 20 drops in space at one time (don't ask how I know that, it involves jettison cargo). I made a poor assumption that they would probably remove successful interdiction damage & improve scooping in the future as both are essentially to piracy and/or mining.

 

[lysan]

Regarding the Ironman mode, It's my opinion that the dev should take a good look at Dayz, not because we want zombies in space, more because of the game mechanics.
If you die in DayZ you're dead, dead as in no more cookies to you pal! Also in Ironman mode everything should be more advanced. Not like DCS in space, more like a cross breed with the complexity of a simulator and still some functions kept due to game play reasons.

If I want an easy game I can play a lot of mindless games just to pass my time, however my time is to valuable for that.

 

[Zvanya]

Interesting observations OP. One thing I thought about was that being an alpha backer gives you insight into the future for those who have just started at release. I bought in at standard beta but played very little prior to release, and I really have only scratched the surface of what is available now.

So hopefully by the time I have reached the stage you are at, Frontier will have addressed some of the points you have brought up.

 

[Biscuit]

I agree with the OP yet I cannot stop playing the game. Help.

 

[Unpleasant]

I disagree with your solutions. Good trade routes need to be easy to find (for new players), and should not degrade too fast (otherwise it will cause problems in busy star systems). Instead the best trade routers should just be very risky.

Problem is, even if you find a good trade route, loads of other people, using 3rd party tools, will be grinding it to extinction.

 

[Cevap]

I agree with the OP yet I cannot stop playing the game. Help.

Hah feel you completely...
I do agree with a lot of points too, I want some punishment from the game not the passive aggression I get with missions making me look for USS for an hour(gods I hate those).

The immersion is breaking for me all the time too because of this, look at the Galnet news: Taxes increased in Federation space... Do any of us really feel that? Think how much more immersive it would have been if the Systems themselves actually had taxation and suddenly all Federation systems take 3% more from you.
Some players would be more affected some less but that is good, we might see groups of traders suddenly going political and helping a system get independent just to lower the taxes in their most profitable trade routes etc.
I also think some high standard stations should charge for docking and other services but have more police flying in system (smuggling contraband there should get you a huge margin but good luck with scanning), I think you should also buy licenses for interdictors and cargo scanners with permission to use them in their systems when you get to a certain level with a major/minor faction, or you buy them of a pirate base illegally for premium price (or normal price if you are friends with them).
There should be discounts for being friendly (not to extreme levels and not every good or module) and penalties for being unfriendly (refusing to sell you weapons etc.)

As stated by the OP some systems should be dangerous, some even suicidal in fact. It would make exploration a constant thrill and traders would need to plan their routes with careful precision. The balance would be that new or unequipped Cmdrs would avoid these places until they were ready or get thought a lesson.

All in all, I feel like Im ranting but Im trying not to, it just feels like the galaxy needs a lot more variety and tension.

 

[SentineI]

As for the Iron Man mode : nobody is stopping you to clear your save whenever you die.

The problem isn't me, the problem is *other players*:

If everyone (that I see) is playing Ironman Mode, then you know they won't do stupid stuff like ram into you for fun, because they are just as likely to die as you. And in fact they would be much less likely to attack any players, simply because the risk is mucher higher when game death means starting from scratch. Pirating & bounty hunting would become a REALLY scary, particularly against other players. Ganking other players would be almost impossible. In effect Ironman mode would force people to role play.

You don't get any of that if you only play Ironman Mode in your own mind. :-(

 

[Macgyver]

A huge issue with my boredom was the stolen labeled loot.
How can anything be exciting when you can't legally loot dropped cargo.
This is a game, it needs to be fun, it does not need to be realistic....

You can not loot for fear or authorities killing you or fines imposed for picked up loot.
Combat would be far more rewarding for players enjoyment and cashflow if the loot was just that ... " loot "

Again I return to the fact that too many flyboy backers were responsible for the game mechanics currently being used.
It does not work and only removes enjoyment from the game.
Maybe the Devs are working on a work around.
Maybe it is all just a bit too late for the gaming community already?

I have recently mothballed my T6 hauler and gone back to my Viper to farm extraction points.
The combat is a lot of fun compared to trade, but the canisters just rot in space.
The only current issue I have is NPC hostile flag bug.
Though a very easy work around is just jump out and renter the zone again, so it is not a game breaker, just a tad annoying.

The hostile flag bug seems to be from " Clean " NPC ships, that have become enemies to the authorities. ( no bounties but red flagged , I have learnt to leave these ships alone )

 

[SentineI]

I agree there should be more higher rated and harder NPCs and in some systems.
Other than that its not the difficulty level that needs adjusting.

Don't confuse difficultly level with entertainment level.
Most games become easy after awhile once you learn all the "ins and outs".

Games can remain entertaining long after the difficulty has been overcome.

The Grind is there because there is not enough content.
Not enough things to do.
Very little multi player activity beside the odd pirate or two and No global or system chat.

I actually agree with you completely... but my first post said what you're saying! I mention those problems first in my post:
1. Lack of content (missions & enemy types).
2. Lack of proper multiplayer grouping/interaction.

Because of these things are missing, ED ends-up being grindy/repetitive. And as those may take a LONG time to fix, my quick solution was to make the game not so stupidly easy.

And to be honest, no matter how much new content Frontier add, people will always eat that content faster than they can create it. It's the same with all MMOs (and ED isn't funded by monthly subscriptions). Better multiplayer stuff would help, but I think an increased difficulty level is the only way to slow down how quickly people go through that content... and even when they have finished that content, I am suggesting they may still enjoy repeating it if the difficulty level is set higher.

 

[Macgyver]

I actually agree with you completely... but my first post said what you're saying! I mention those problems first in my post:
1. Lack of content (missions & enemy types).
2. Lack of proper multiplayer grouping/interaction.

Because of these things are missing, ED ends-up being grindy/repetitive. And as those may take a LONG time to fix, my quick solution was to make the game not so stupidly easy.

And to be honest, no matter how much new content Frontier add, people will always eat that content faster than they can create it. It's the same with all MMOs (and ED isn't funded by monthly subscriptions). Better multiplayer stuff would help, but I think an increased difficulty level is the only way to slow down how quickly people go through that content... and even when they have finished that content, I am suggesting they may still enjoy repeating it if the difficulty level is set higher.

they could easily find funding through a ingame shop.
id prefer to pay $60 for a Python than earn it I just don't have the time.

 

[anikaiful]

5. Ships don't cost much to maintain. Imagine if you were a trader (or bounty hunter or whatever) barely managing to stay financially afloat (never mind any dreams of buying a better ship), just like Han Solo (from Star Wars) or Malcolm Reynolds (from Firefly). Then you'd have a real reason to take risky/illegal ventures (which were potentially very profitable). This would again make ED play more like The Long Dark.... however it would also be the biggest & most controversial change to the game, fundamentally changing how it plays, so it would be very hard to get right without upsetting a lot of people. Maybe they could make this an entirely different game mode (like Ironman, or perhaps even as part of Ironman Mode)?

Except for the other points, I have to disagree with the maintenance cost part (sure, cheap ships cost pennies) - the prices rise rapidly the bigger ship you fly.

 

[SentineI]

The immersion is breaking for me all the time too because of this, look at the Galnet news: Taxes increased in Federation space... Do any of us really feel that? Think how much more immersive it would have been if the Systems themselves actually had taxation and suddenly all Federation systems take 3% more from you.
Some players would be more affected some less but that is good, we might see groups of traders suddenly going political and helping a system get independent just to lower the taxes in their most profitable trade routes etc.

That's a great idea. And it could even be implemented quite easily! The cost of everything should go up at Federation stations. What better reason to support a non-Federation faction taking over the station? The lure of cheaper stuff! Of course there would need to be some reason invented for supporting the Federation too (or at least not supporting the Empire), otherwise it would be rather one sided.

 

[Macgyver]

The OP surely has a point, and it's from his point of view. But now take a look at all those new players who moan about the overall difficulty and harshness of the game. All these players do have a valid point as well. If there is something basically wrong with the game than it's the shape of its learning curve: Brutally steep in the beginning and then suddenly flats out to boredom. I have to admit that I don't have an easy solution at hand. Sure, if I just wanted to let the egoist out I'd just vote for increased difficulty, but this would only exacerbate the current situation.

Edit: As a very rough vision I would think about a concentrically increasing difficulty with likewise increasing rewards. The problem is that we now don't have ONE single "starter-bubble" but many of them. Otherwise I'd say keep the first 50ly bubble reasonable safe as in easy NPCs, no PVP, modest rewards. Then modestly increasing overall difficulty in all aspects the further you get away from this virtual center including increasing rewards of course (+ PVP).

They already have a way to stage difficulty level.
The types of government systems could control this.
Anarchy systems being the hardest.
Increase % of missiles fired, number of support ships for enemies, call in reinforcements ( no reason why jump beqcons can't be dropped for incoming backup ships )
Some very easy combat tweaks could make the game incredibly difficult.

Ofcourse some form of higher loot table/tokens for special weapons etc would need to be given.

Im however flying a Viper and still too scared to take on an Anaconda, though none I have come across yet have any bounties and are not wanted.... So the game still holds a challenge for me.
i don't use shield cells, I think that is cheating...

 

[deMangler]

Spoiler

I'm a Kickstarter backer of Elite Dangerous, I've been playing it since June (Premium Beta), and I've been a fan of all the previous Elite games, so I'm not some newbie with wrong ideas about what it should be like. Due to a post by someone else, I had a bit of a brainwave that I wanted to share. This isn't an unhelpful criticism of ED, but rather it's suggestions on how it can be improved.

Most of the time when someone on these forums says it's boring, people who'll defend ED against any criticism (rather than try to understand the other's point of view) will claim they want to be "spoon fed excitement" (or similar). Those arguments are invalid here, because my essential claim is that ED is too easy (but it's more complex than that, so I hope you'll read the rest of my lengthy post before replying).

The kind of boredom I'm talking about is the kind that sets in after you've mastered all of ED's many complexities (which I found was a fun learning curve), and after you've done lots of missions, gone to many different kinds of star systems, and tried pretty much everything that ED has to offer. At that point repetition or "grind" sets in, because of two issues I've discussed many times before:

1. There are a very limited set of missions & types of enemy to encounter. (It's blindingly obvious that Frontier need to add more kinds of missions, so I'm hopeful they are working on this issue as a priority.)
2. Multiplayer should provide variety that the game itself lacks, but it doesn't as multiplayer interaction is very hampered by the limited ways people can work together as a team. (This has been discussed to the death, and Frontier are planning to greatly improve it with a "Wings" update, probably sometime in the next few months.)

I am sure that Frontier Developments will eventually improve ED (as they did during Beta/Gamma), but I'm hoping my suggestions will help them get there quicker.


My main insight, and the reason for this post, is that repetition & grinding doesn't HAVE to be boring. The reason it's boring is that it's mostly too easy, and thus provides no challenge. Without any real challenge, repetition becomes boring, as it's just mindless repetition. There are other openworld & sandbox games which are quite repetitive, but that repetition isn't boring because they are still very challenging. Examples include The Long Dark (the most repetitive game I know, yet I still find it fun after 45 hours because just surviving is a real challenge), and Fallout 3 (it didn't become boring until I got so powerful that I could go into any area & attack any monster without worrying). In fact I would say that most games become boring once there is no challenge. Well, ED doesn't have any challenge after you've mastered it's various complexities, and so it becomes boring. So it needs to be made harder.

Here are some ways that ED is too easy:

1. There are no star systems which are really dangerous, such that'd you have to think twice before going there. Imagine that a bounty target is in a dangerous system, or you can trade a commodity at great profit in a dangerous system, or you want to escape a bounty hunter by going to a dangerous system.

Anarchy systems should be dangerous, but they're not significantly so, and they're actually safer in a way because you can start shooting as soon as someone interdicts you (without waiting to scan them or them to shoot you first). At the very least Anarchies, and low security systems to a lesser degree, should be swarming with high-level pirate NPCs. To balance this, pirate NPCs need fixing such that they don't shoot unless you've got cargo, and not before giving you a proper chance to drop your cargo (for me they usually shoot on sight after a couple of seconds). (There should of course still be some bloodthirsty crazy NPCs, that are just out to kill you, but they don't count as pirates.)

2. NPC ships are mostly too easy. That wasn't always the case. NPC difficulty was dropped during Gamma, I think around the time they linked NPC difficulty to their Elite rating. "Harmless" NPCs still need to be easy, but their skill should increase much quicker (with higher ratings), while "Elite" NPCs should be almost unkillable (without needing to be in an Anaconda). I also find it ridiculous that I'm frequently interdicted by pirates who don't have any shields - think for a minute how stupid that is.

EDIT: 2.5. You can Boost to escape from almost any enemies. This means that if I see multiple enemies, I don't even need to worry about engaging them, as I can always escape. Combat would be more fun, and places would be riskier, if I was forced to fight. Since traders can loose everything, ED would need to be more lenient on people carrying most of their net wealth in cargo. It's not an ideal solution, but neither is the current situation.

3. The Sidewinder is too powerful. I don't run into enough human players, so it might just be that the NPCs are too easy (see above). But I have read other people say the same thing. Players in a vanilla Sidewinder should fear just about any other ship, but as it currently stands I can go just about anywhere in a basic Sidewinder to do trading, bounty hunting & missions. So this is partly down to there being no really dangerous star systems, but the Sidewinder should still be a rubbish ship that you sell for an Eagle or Cobra as soon as you humanly can. Upgrading ships in earlier Elite games used to be essential if you wanted to stay alive, but now it's mostly just a question of wanting more utility slots & internal slots.

There needs to be more of a difference between each ship, as you go up the expense scale. I suggest the shields & hull should be much worse at the lower end. If the Sidewinder's shields & hull crumpled after a few laser shots, it would really feel like a rubbish ship that you want to upgrade or replace ASAP.

And once you reach a Cobra or Viper, there is almost no incentive to go further (unless you are a trader) & their expense makes it almost impossible to go higher anyway (unless you are a trader).

4. When you die, there is almost no penalty (unless you are a trader). This would be easily fixed by Fronter implementing their planned Ironman Mode, where everyone in it only comes across other Ironaman Mode players (plus NPCs of course), and dying is much much harsher: You either loose everything (effectively deleting your Save Game & starting from scratch), or you choose to carry on in the non-Ironman universe (if you are a wuss). Then every single encounter with a hostile ship (NPC or player) would be very stressful, because you literally risk loosing everything. This is something I previously suggested which would make ED much more like The Long Dark.

I have some alternative thoughts on this here:
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=91298&p=1426581&viewfull=1#post1426581

5. Ships don't cost much to maintain. Imagine if you were a trader (or bounty hunter or whatever) barely managing to stay financially afloat (never mind any dreams of buying a better ship), just like Han Solo (from Star Wars) or Malcolm Reynolds (from Firefly). Then you'd have a real reason to take risky/illegal ventures (which were potentially very profitable). This would again make ED play more like The Long Dark.... however it would also be the biggest & most controversial change to the game, fundamentally changing how it plays, so it would be very hard to get right without upsetting a lot of people. Maybe they could make this an entirely different game mode (like Ironman, or perhaps even as part of Ironman Mode)?


Fundamentally most of these issues are balance issues. The sort of thing which Frontier should have sorted out before releasing the game, unfortunately they rushed the release of the game (IMHO a few months too early). I also suspect (as other people have claimed) that with each influx of new players in Beta & Gamma, Frontier reduced the games difficulty because a vocal few would complain the game was too hard. Unfortunately they went way too far, and made the game so easy that it's just boring.

I must also add that not everyone finds ED boring. Some people are obviously fine playing a repetitive easy game. That's absolutely fine, but unfortunately not everyone is like that. In fact I'd suggest that a sizable fraction of players aren't like that, and if Frontier hope to retain players for more than a few months they need to do something about the game's lack of long-term difficulty. Without retaining players, there may not be enough to buy the Expansion packs (DLC) that Frontier hope will sustain the development of ED for many years. I'm sure most of us want to get Landing On Planets, or Stealing Someone Else's Ship, so even if you don't find ED boring you still have a reason for wanting other people to keep playing.

Well put. A lot of these observations are scattered around various threads and I have posted or thought much along the lines that you posted there.
Nice constructive concise post, furthermore excellent because I agree with it...

 

[SentineI]

How can anything be exciting when you can't legally loot dropped cargo.
This is a game, it needs to be fun, it does not need to be realistic....

You can not loot for fear or authorities killing you or fines imposed for picked up loot.
Combat would be far more rewarding for players enjoyment and cashflow if the loot was just that ... " loot "

Hmmm, you are advocating making the game easier, when it is already perfectly possible to collect & sell stolen loot. Doing what you ask would remove all challenge, and so make the game LESS fun (IMHO). I enjoy the challenge of selling stolen loot, for which you have two choices:

1. Go to outposts, instead of big space stations. They don't have police checking you, so you can get in easy.

2. Turn off non-essential modules (to get cooler), line-up with the space station entrance at around 8-9km out (away from police), get docking permission, turn on Silent Running mode, and then get docked before your heat level reaches 150%. There are of course tricks to do this better.

Parallel to this you also have the challenge of just finding a station with a black market! I find that Independant Anarchies systems (or stations allied to such a faction) are the best bet, but that can mean a long trip. And not everyone pays the same for stolen goods. It seems to me that systems with larger populations pay a lot more, so you have to balance distance vs reward.

 

[Unpleasant]

The problem isn't me, the problem is *other players*:

If everyone (that I see) is playing Ironman Mode, then you know they won't do stupid stuff like ram into you for fun, because they are just as likely to die as you. And in fact they would be much less likely to attack any players, simply because the risk is mucher higher when game death means starting from scratch. Pirating & bounty hunting would become a REALLY scary, particularly against other players. Ganking other players would be almost impossible. In effect Ironman mode would force people to role play.

You don't get any of that if you only play Ironman Mode in your own mind. :-(

Your game isn't over if you die in iron man mode. You just go back to regular mode.

 

[SentineI]

The OP surely has a point, and it's from his point of view. But now take a look at all those new players who moan about the overall difficulty and harshness of the game. All these players do have a valid point as well. If there is something basically wrong with the game than it's the shape of its learning curve: Brutally steep in the beginning and then suddenly flats out to boredom.

Are there really newbies complaining about that? I find it hard to imagine! I mean ED is initially difficult as you have to learn all these complexities... but the actual game (when you learn how to play it) is actually far too easy.

However, I do agree that the early game experience must not be made a lot harder. But Frontier have already take great care with that, so I have no doubt that will continue to do so.

Edit: As a very rough vision I would think about a concentrically increasing difficulty with likewise increasing rewards. The problem is that we now don't have ONE single "starter-bubble" but many of them. Otherwise I'd say keep the first 50ly bubble reasonable safe as in easy NPCs, no PVP, modest rewards. Then modestly increasing overall difficulty in all aspects the further you get away from this virtual center including increasing rewards of course (+ PVP).

I trust that Frontier can design stuff better than I can. I am just trying to point them in the right direction, and leave the tricky design details for them to worry about.

 

[intel]

Elite Dangerous failed me since the Original ELITE was nothing like this. I do hope they salvage the damage done with new expansion and get over with this boredom.

 

[SentineI]

Your game isn't over if you die in iron man mode. You just go back to regular mode.

Errr, I already mention that when I described Ironman Mode. It keeps people who don't play by Ironman rules out of the Ironman universe. So what's the problem?

 

[Katkon]

Generally speaking I do enjoy this game, BUT I nonetheless agree with pretty much all your observations!