The EULA and Data Farming

[ggpwnkthx]

This post may be better suited in the support section, but I thought it might be interesting to get some official and unofficial perspective on this subject.

I've been following the trends in harvesting commodity/game data. At current it seems that using OCR is the preferred method. Although this is still a clear violation of the EULA (specifically section 3.d), Frontier has been letting these applications slide.

It seems like most, if not all, the community developers DO want to follow the "rules", or at the very least they want to be in good standing with Frontier. But in the absence of a proper API I think it's fair to say that with every measure Frontier might make to RIGHTFULLY protect it's data and users, the community devs will find grey areas and loop holes in the EULA to skirt around those measures.

I realize the official stance is somewhere along the lines of "an API sounds like a good idea, we'll probably add that." However, until an API is fully realized, would it not be a healthy compromise to allow harvesting/scraping data with permission so long as an application meets a set of guidelines - to the point of even requiring the applications to be open source?

 

[deMangler]

...to the point of even requiring the applications to be open source?

Yes to this.

 

[Caspar]

"Allow" would be taken by the community as passive support. FD do something that breaks OCR and people using 3rd party tools start making support demands. Sounds messy to me. Best wait for the API.

 

[Kitiara]

An open source reqirement would not be reasonable. Those of us that develop tools put considerable time and effort into them. It is our choice as to whether to release the source or not.

Frontier have the right to determine what we can do to interact with the Elite: Dangerous product (client and galaxy data) and clarity on this is beneficial to both the 3rd party developer community, and to Frontier.

The ideal will be an API, but I don't realistically expect that to be forthcoming in the next several months.

 

[BACKER#50040]

Can you link the EULA please? It seems completely absurd that i can't do whatever i want with screen shots i take.

 

[ggpwnkthx]

It seems to me that, in the case that protecting user data is the primary concern, requiring a third party application to be open source is the only way to be sure of what that application is actually doing. In that sense, it stands to reason that, at the very least, the collection mechanism should be open. The entire application does not need to be. That said, we could have a debate for days on the implications of open source, but the bottom line is that "open source" does not mean you're free to copy or make changes to my code. Your application can be open source and have specific licensing on it's uses just like any other program.


If Frontier would lay out some specific guidelines, i.e. only X, Y, and Z data may be collected and only if it doesn't interrupt the running game program in any way, I think (without an API) both the community, freelance devs, and Frontier can benefit from such an agreement.

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Can you link the EULA please? It seems completely absurd that i can't do whatever i want with screen shots i take.

https://store.elitedangerous.com/ed-eula/

Screenshots are not prohibited. Using any automated means to copy data from the game is prohibited. In section 3.e it states that even manually copying data is prohibited.

[edit] The OCR is a grey area, as it doesn't take the information directly from the game process, but it does conceptually take the information from the game / game environment. Again, this is just one of those ways the freelance devs dance around the EULA due to the lack of specifics.

All I'm asking for are clearly stated specifics, and not a few ambiguous lines in the EULA.

 

[kurush]

The real point here is that screen scrapping can't be detected or prevented by Frontier in any meaningful fashion. So their desire here is laregely irrelevant and those tools will just become available on "other" sites while with a crowdsorced database they can't do anything via EULA. In-process injection and data scrapping they can attempt to detect and prevent though.

 

[ggpwnkthx]

A noninvasive process dump can't be detected either.

I think the "real" point is that the community wants access to data because there is meaning to the meta. It's an important aspect of a game like this. It's also important that inappropriate use of the data is minimized or eliminated, but at current (to my knowledge) the only thing Frontier has officially deemed inappropriate is user data.

If that be the case, why is just harvesting stellar data or commodity data prohibited?

[edit] Presumably, the answer to that question is: "we have no way of knowing if that's the only data you're taking."

 

[MagmaiKH]

This is a measure to set a standard that botting and aim-botting is not allowed.
In order to effectively do that you have to attach to the process and skim the program's memory ... with enough effort you can figure out where key information is like the target coordinates and your coordinates.

 

[ggpwnkthx]

This is a measure to set a standard that botting and aim-botting is not allowed.
In order to effectively do that you have to attach to the process and skim the program's memory ... with enough effort you can figure out where key information is like the target coordinates and your coordinates.

I certainly understand that. And as kurush validly pointed out, there will be people that are going to exploit any relaxed security in the running process. On a philosophical level I think, to some extent, you're successful when people actually want to find your weaknesses.

Anyone who dug around in the process before the EULA was amended knows that grabbing commodity data is script-kiddie level simple. If it's going to happen, the data should at least be obfuscated in some way. Although I understand the reasoning behind the EULA amendment, it's a very poor defense if that's the only means Frontier is using to prevent cheating and it deters developers from legitimately enhancing the communities experience with the game.

[edit: words]

 

[ggpwnkthx]

The old adage, "It's easier to ask for forgiveness than for permission" seems to reign in quite heavily on this subject. To me that seem unfair to anyone who wants to follow the rules, as the current EULA is only roughly applicable and only when Frontier selectively decides it doesn't like an app.

Although that is certainly their prerogative, it would be nice to have official guidelines for third party apps in the absence of an API. Not just for the devs, but also for the players that use the apps so that they know their account data are safe.

 

[Slopey]

None of the 3rd party apps access user data (afaik).

FD have been pretty clear on what is/isn't permissible, and if anyone has any doubts, Michael is the person to ask

But I see no need to make 3rd party apps open source. I am plagued by PMs from people who want the BPC source code for no other reason that they don't know how to parse a web page, pop it in a database and query it (which is all the BPC is really).

If people want to write one, they can do it themselves, they don't need access to everyone else's code - none of this is rocket science, so it's not like they couldn't implement something from a few google searches anyway.

But just for clarity, as FD are well aware, I'm following the rules on this one. There's no direct link between OCRing and the BPC really, and if OCR is ever deemed "a bad thing", that won't effect the BPC which ultimately relies on people typing in data.

 

[Unpleasant]

An open source reqirement would not be reasonable. Those of us that develop tools put considerable time and effort into them. It is our choice as to whether to release the source or not.

Frontier have the right to determine what we can do to interact with the Elite: Dangerous product (client and galaxy data) and clarity on this is beneficial to both the 3rd party developer community, and to Frontier.

The ideal will be an API, but I don't realistically expect that to be forthcoming in the next several months.

People that write hacks and cheats for online games also put a lot of time and effort into their scripts... Shall we allow them to use those too, seeing as they worked hard on them.?

 

[Slopey]

People that write hacks and cheats for online games also put a lot of time and effort into their scripts... Shall we allow them to use those too, seeing as they worked hard on them.?

They won't make them public, so you're not going to know.

 

[Unpleasant]

The old adage, "It's easier to ask for forgiveness than for permission" seems to reign in quite heavily on this subject. To me that seem unfair to anyone who wants to follow the rules, as the current EULA is only roughly applicable and only when Frontier selectively decides it doesn't like an app.

Although that is certainly their prerogative, it would be nice to have official guidelines for third party apps in the absence of an API. Not just for the devs, but also for the players that use the apps so that they know their account data are safe.

Couldn't agree more, those that use these 3rd party tools don't even have to visit a system to see what prices the stations there have... Clearly they have a massive advantage over those playing the game as it should be played.

 

[Slopey]

Couldn't agree more, those that use these 3rd party tools don't even have to visit a system to see what prices the stations there have... Clearly they have a massive advantage over those playing the game as it should be played.

There are groups in ED with >2000 members, and teamspeak servers. How is using a tool different to asking on the TS server what the price of X is at Y? Provided the data isn't scraped out of the client, but is typed in by an individual totally separate from the game itself, I can't see how you can ban people just talking to each other. Unless you want to make it a single player game with no shared economy.

But it doesn't matter - competitive play in ED is pointless. I've flown 200LY tonight and seen NOBODY - nothing anyone could do anywhere in the galaxy could possibly affect my game currently.

 

[ggpwnkthx]

There are groups in ED with >2000 members, and teamspeak servers. How is using a tool different to asking on the TS server what the price of X is at Y? Provided the data isn't scraped out of the client, but is typed in by an individual totally separate from the game itself, I can't see how you can ban people just talking to each other. Unless you want to make it a single player game with no shared economy.

But it doesn't matter - competitive play in ED is pointless. I've flown 200LY tonight and seen NOBODY - nothing anyone could do anywhere in the galaxy could possibly affect my game currently.

That's a point I take issue with regarding the current EULA. As pointed out earlier, even manually copying data is considered in violation of the EULA.

BTW, I use and love your app! Thanks for weighing on on this.

 

[baael]

There is no working law, agreement or any other similar thing, that will prevent such things. There is no game that is not hacked, botted etc. Only ways to prevent it is good support to catching cheaters and community.

They can forbid using such tools, but they cannot do anything to person who is using it (maybe in USA...)

And OCR is XXI century notepad, you can easily do this with pen and paper, and no one on earth can forbid this.

FD in Elite is using multiple ways to prevent it, changing colors, filters, blurring, artificial loading delays, etc, but as long as it is be readable for real people, this will be readable for software.

Only way to prevent such things, is to provide gameplay that cannot be solved by software, or it will be more problematic than playing. Complicated quests for example (like in this example: http://unfair.co/gaming/the-secret-world-the-kingsmouth-code-walkthrough/ ).

I can bet, that problems with server were caused by some people trying to decrypt and decode packet transmission, but really, this is matter of time when it will be done.

Sry for my english... I am a little drunk

 

[Unpleasant]

There are groups in ED with >2000 members, and teamspeak servers. How is using a tool different to asking on the TS server what the price of X is at Y? Provided the data isn't scraped out of the client, but is typed in by an individual totally separate from the game itself, I can't see how you can ban people just talking to each other. Unless you want to make it a single player game with no shared economy.

But it doesn't matter - competitive play in ED is pointless. I've flown 200LY tonight and seen NOBODY - nothing anyone could do anywhere in the galaxy could possibly affect my game currently.

Don't get me wrong you must be a clever chap to put a program together like this. You're also quite right, it's just the same as big groups of people sharing information with each other.

Still gives those using these types of things an advantage over everyone else playing the game as it was meant to be played.

If FD wanted me to be able to see all the trade prices of everyone that's ever been to any station since the game came online... Wouldn't they have added that feature to the game?

Then you get normal players, like me, that don't use these 3rd party trading tools, that simply cant find decent trade route anywhere, ever. Why? Because those that use these types of tools trade them into extinction.

Your program might help you, and your friends that use them, but, at the same time, they make the game much more difficult for everyone else that doesn't use them.

 

[Quineloe]

Screenshots are not prohibited. Using any automated means to copy data from the game is prohibited. In section 3.e it states that even manually copying data is prohibited.

barring your incorrect interpretation of 3e, such a Eula clause would be void and unenforceable.