What? no BVR?

[OutLord]

If there's one thing that I cant get my head around, its why we cant have Beyond Visual Range Space to Space combat. This also includes no real limit on flight speed.

I hear people argue that if we were allowed to go too fast engagements would be ridiculous or not practical. I TOTALLY disagree.

Coming from many years of virtual combat experience from Hornet Korea to Janes, IL2 and DCS How fast you go is not a limiting factor for gameplay. you cant get into a knife fight at 800 knots and the same would go for space simply because you have no maneuverability to either get on the elbow or to evade incoming arsenal. I can live with the restrictions but quite frankly I don't see any need for it. Especially as it takes a REALLY BIG CHUNK out of the realism for me.

A truly great combat space sim IMHO would have radars that look ahead on the 100's of kilometres. Missiles with really poor turn rates so therefor pretty useless at high speeds. Pilots would need to slow down to similar speeds they do now to engage a target. zipping past at 10,000 kph although fun would be impractical. Firstly it would take a long time to get to those speeds and exactly the same amount of time to slow down again.

MY idea of a space combat sim would be where a flight would engage targets from 100km or so with ships spreading out into attack formations or brackets. Firing some missiles at range to put the enemy into a defensive position and then moving in for a guns/lasers or short range missile kill. Very similar to earth dogfights just without gravity or air and not much to hide behind.

Is there anyone else here who could also see this type of scenario working well?

 

[Vasea Azure]

Well, in my opinion you are right - it would make combat much more interesting 'for me'. But David Barben decision was to make combat more like early jet era one - and that is fine with me its also very engaging and fun. But it does not feel like I`m flying a space ship - yes I know about FA off .

 

[JohnMalcolm]

I don't honestly mind combat as it is right now. It's fun. Lots of fun. Some things jar a little though. We have sensors able to tell us what type of ship is flying 250,000LS away, and exactly how it is armed and equipped, yet once out of frame shift we are back to 6km ranges. I don't want the sensors to have that range in normal space, but I'd prefer not to be able to pick up as much information as we can at present while frame-shifting. It seems unreasonable to get that level of detail about a small spaceship when stars aren't yet in range to be picked up by sensors.
.
BVR combat might be more realistic but it would make for a very dull game indeed. It would be nice to have some powerful BVR weapons, but probably only fired by capital ships. More variety and types of sensor would also be nice. Active and passive for example.

 

[OutLord]

I'll just interdict one potential argument and that is the "Noob" factor of players not wanting to be hit from missiles from miles away and going what hit me?? As it is now I NEVER stray out of the 7km protection zone of the Starports because there is absolutely no point. So if these safe zones were capable of intercepting any incoming missiles automatically then the pilots who don't want to get caught up in fighter tactics could continue to do what they are doing now without any noticeable change to gameplay.
Those of us who want to mix it up and own some sky could venture out say 10km or more and get it on for some quality Space combat where teamwork and real fighter pilot tactics could take place. As for a ship entering Starport space faster than say 500kph. Base station would consider it a lethal threat and simply destroy it.

 

[Seonid]

If there's one thing that I cant get my head around, its why we cant have Beyond Visual Range Space to Space combat. This also includes no real limit on flight speed.

Simply put, that's not the type of gameplay FD wanted from the game so they didn't do it that way.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Simply put, that's not the type of gameplay FD wanted from the game so they didn't do it that way.

.... also, the 500 m/s limit (in normal space) is in place due to network limitations.

 

[OutLord]

.... also, the 500 m/s limit (in normal space) is in place due to network limitations.

I cant see that. The faster something goes, the straighter something goes. If anything that would make networking even easier because flight paths are so predictable. Humans can only pull 8-9G's for short periods of time and at high speeds that doesn't leave much of a turn rate.

 

[Seonid]

This discussion was all done to extreme death long long ago, basic upshot is that this is the way FD wanted it done, so it is done that way. You believe it should be done another way and whilst both opinions are valid, only one will prevail.

 

[Rickenbacker]

I hear people argue that if we were allowed to go too fast engagements would be ridiculous or not practical. I TOTALLY disagree.

It's possible to solve it from a game design perspective. But it's still impossible from a networking perspective, and won't work in a multiplayer game. The faster you're going, the larger the positional errors - it's easy to figure out mathematically, but let's just say that at 1000km/h relative speed, you see your opponent a few hundreds of meters behind where he sees himself, and vice versa. The faster you go, the worse it gets, resulting in things like players being shot by enemies that "were nowhere near me, dammit!" I've seen it happen in every WW2 online flight sim (and I've played most, if not all of them extensively), and there we're talking top speeds of 4-500 mph.

So, TLR: It's a great idea for a single player game, but latency makes it physically impossible to do this fairly in a multiplayer game.

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I cant see that. The faster something goes, the straighter something goes. If anything that would make networking even easier because flight paths are so predictable. Humans can only pull 8-9G's for short periods of time and at high speeds that doesn't leave much of a turn rate.

The problem is positional errors. Say you could go 1000m/s, and the total delay between you and your opponent was around 500ms (not uncommon, it'll likely be more in most cases). In half a second you both travel 500m before the other one gets the update. Even at this relatively modest doubling of the speed limit, you'd see your opponent a full kilometer away from where he sees himself! You'd get shot by people you never even saw all the time, people would whine until the devs' ears fell off, and the game would die.

 

[OutLord]

It's possible to solve it from a game design perspective. But it's still impossible from a networking perspective, and won't work in a multiplayer game. The faster you're going, the larger the positional errors - it's easy to figure out mathematically, but let's just say that at 1000km/h relative speed, you see your opponent a few hundreds of meters behind where he sees himself, and vice versa. The faster you go, the worse it gets, resulting in things like players being shot by enemies that "were nowhere near me, dammit!" I've seen it happen in every WW2 online flight sim (and I've played most, if not all of them extensively), and there we're talking top speeds of 4-500 mph.

So, TLR: It's a great idea for a single player game, but latency makes it physically impossible to do this fairly in a multiplayer game.

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The problem is positional errors. Say you could go 1000m/s, and the total delay between you and your opponent was around 500ms (not uncommon, it'll likely be more in most cases). In half a second you both travel 500m before the other one gets the update. Even at this relatively modest doubling of the speed limit, you'd see your opponent a full kilometer away from where he sees himself! You'd get shot by people you never even saw all the time, people would whine until the devs' ears fell off, and the game would die.

DCS has had aircraft closing and merging at 4000kph plus for over 10 years without a network issue. That includes high pings.

 

[Ainoaoikea]

Perhaps Mr Braben should have hired some people from Sheffield. I-War (or Independence War) games had a great newtonian flight model, and the second game even had a multiplayer mode (well, a death match mode, and hardly anyone to play with, but still...). Too late now, I suppose

 

[Robert Maynard]

DCS has had aircraft closing and merging at 4000kph plus for over 10 years without a network issue. That includes high pings.

You should search for threads containing "Newtonian" in the title - they will show the arguments for and against and also the Devs' (very clear - even to the point of inviting the proponents of "no speed limit" to get together to create a proof-of-concept demonstrator) position. The game has gone from Alpha (Dec'13) through Premium Beta, Beta, Gamma and release with pretty much the same flight model - it is unlikely in the extreme to change now.

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Perhaps Mr Braben should have hired some people from Sheffield. I-War (or Independence War) games had a great newtonian flight model, and the second game even had a multiplayer mode (well, a death match mode, and hardly anyone to play with, but still...). Too late now, I suppose

If he had wanted to have a Newtonian flight model then he had already created two games with that model so had plenty of experience to draw on. He did not - he wanted E: D to be akin to Elite in flight model rather than the sequels.

 

[Cmdr_Arri]

Have you ever seen Star Trek or Stargate, for instance? There's a reason why you can't shoot things in hyperspace, which is essentially what supercruise is.

 

[Hethwill_Khan]

Remember there are lots of good sim players in Elite, and I completely love the mix between a ww2 knife fight with somewhat DCS 'Nam sort of rocketry.

Weaponry in Elite doesn't have sub light speeds. Only exception is the laser powered weaponry but they work as some sort of nose cannon type, so all is good.
Missiles simply do not have extreme atmospheric range and everything is fine. A dumb one can fly up to 16 klicks before disappearing from sensor, it is quite good. No idea about the torpedoes.

There are no G's. There is no forward thrust all the time. You can effectively move your "airship" to 6 basic directions without even changing your direction aim.

Overall the style of combat is perfect for the capabilities displayed by the space ships and I praise the developers for the option to NOT INCLUDE XXIst century air warfare where first sight first rocket flight is usually the winner.

 

[Robert Maynard]

There are no G's.

There are plenty - every time we accelerate / decelerate or change direction of travel.

 

[Seonid]

There are no G's.

Pull a high-speed boosted dive or climb in a well equipped Eagle or a Viper and see what happens.

 

[Hethwill_Khan]

Do it everytime I step in the ship. There are no G's.

A pertinent question... what is a climb or dive in space ? A suggestions, pitch speed is the same, up down or even a side boost. Only difference is the relay of thrust power.

Sorry but if you fly the ships like you do a plane in another sim you will have big difficulties against anything "competent" other than NPCs.

Just saying.

 

[Shads]

If there's one thing that I cant get my head around, its why we cant have Beyond Visual Range Space to Space combat. This also includes no real limit on flight speed.

I hear people argue that if we were allowed to go too fast engagements would be ridiculous or not practical. I TOTALLY disagree.

Coming from many years of virtual combat experience from Hornet Korea to Janes, IL2 and DCS How fast you go is not a limiting factor for gameplay. you cant get into a knife fight at 800 knots and the same would go for space simply because you have no maneuverability to either get on the elbow or to evade incoming arsenal. I can live with the restrictions but quite frankly I don't see any need for it. Especially as it takes a REALLY BIG CHUNK out of the realism for me.

A truly great combat space sim IMHO would have radars that look ahead on the 100's of kilometres. Missiles with really poor turn rates so therefor pretty useless at high speeds. Pilots would need to slow down to similar speeds they do now to engage a target. zipping past at 10,000 kph although fun would be impractical. Firstly it would take a long time to get to those speeds and exactly the same amount of time to slow down again.

MY idea of a space combat sim would be where a flight would engage targets from 100km or so with ships spreading out into attack formations or brackets. Firing some missiles at range to put the enemy into a defensive position and then moving in for a guns/lasers or short range missile kill. Very similar to earth dogfights just without gravity or air and not much to hide behind.

Is there anyone else here who could also see this type of scenario working well?

You've just described EvE Oline...what are you doing here?

 

[OutLord]

You've just described EvE Oline...what are you doing here?

Never played Eve online. It probably never attracted my attention because it doesn't have 1st person view.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Do it everytime I step in the ship. There are no G's.

The fact that the pilot's viewpoint moves around in response to accelerations would tend to suggest that there are*....

*: with "Gs" being a colloquial reference to accelerations acting on a body.