Market Data storing by Ship Computer

[Akilax]

I would like to make a suggestion about how market information is handled in-game.

As it is now, I only get to know what a station supplies and demands by docking with it. Otherwise I only have three items listed as imports and another three as exports, which by the way are sometimes false the way they are stated in the system view.

However this is very unlikely to be even close to acceptable for any pilot in the year 3301 I assume.

What is even worse is, that the ship computer does not keep a log file of what the market situation was upon last visiting it. This is highly unrealistic for any trader to accept as a suitable system, as the most current market situation is what makes his livelyhood.

So why isn't a more realistic system implemented, that is quite simple, yet provides players with the amount of realism and support that should be expected by a computer system in a trade ship in the year 3301?

A absolutely rudimentary example could be, that the trade data for a station is saved for 24 hours on the ships computer and can be seen in the "Galactic Average" collumn, if the pilot uses a market interface. Additionally any Nav Beacon gives a ship entering the system all the information about what is being produced and what is being consumed by the stations within that system upon entering the system. However, no exact numbers like current supply/demand or prices would be exchanged like this and it would just be entered in the system view and stay there until it is changed by updated information.

Even better of course would be, if a pilot could look at a market data chart without being docked at a station and look it up in a "market info tab" while traveling.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not asking for real-time market information across systems or just even across stations.

All I think should be there (by 3301) is some way that I as a trader can rely on my ship computer to keep track on recent market data, without me having to resort to an excel spreadsheet (or even worse: pen&paper) that I have to manually fill out in order to keep track. That would be ridiculous. However it is the situation we have now and I consider it barely acceptable in a game set so far in the future where trading is one of the main activities that players can follow.

Thanks for reading.

 

[Tiamat]

What is even worse is, that the ship computer does not keep a log file of what the market situation was upon last visiting it. This is highly unrealistic for any trader to accept as a suitable system, as the most current market situation is what makes his livelyhood.

I assume it is a technical limitation. Assume 300k players and 24 commodities (I'm pulling numbers out of thin air here) and you are already at 7.2 million rows of data for one single station. Even if you only allow the last 10 stations to be remembered (far too low a cap to be useful) the amount of data involved is simply too much. It would be achievable but it is going to need a lot of money thrown at it and maintenance costs for this database will be high.

Another example is CMDR Thrudd's trade calculator where people are adding systems and prices. He is running into database size problems already and I think he was at 100k systems the last time he announced it.

 

[Seboss]

I don't think anything prevents the market data to be remembered client side, so no additional operating costs there.

 

[Cmdr Andy B]

we have already seen players charging through the game's trading saying it ruined it for them as using the external tools it was so easy to make money, i have said it before in an identical thread so i'll repeat it here:

two words: too easy.

 

[Akilax]

I understand your concern Tiamat, but I imagined the system to be client side as well, like Seboss already mentioned. No need for a server storage for all these rows of data there. And as the data would be wiped after 24 hours for each station (in order not to make it too easy for frequent traders) there shouldn't be a problem client side either. Of course it would have to be encrypted somehow in order to avoid giving players a chance to share the information that was stored locally.

AndyB, I don't quite understand your concern. I believe you think that I am suggesting a shared database between players and that you therefore compare my suggestion with those external tools.

I am not suggesting that at all.

I do believe it is alright, that each player discovers trade opportunities by himself. All I want is a system that helps me remember the opportunities I saw myself within the last 24 hours.

When I make my trade runs I often can't remember more than maybe 2 or 3 good opportunities for the last 4 to 6 stations. What I want is the game to allow me to revisit the commodities market screen of a station I visited within the last 24 hours, with the data in it that it had when I last saw it. Something like a screenshot that will be deleted after 24 hours.

I think this would make trading a much more enjoyable experience for me, because as it is now, I have to keep track manually of the market opportunities I encounter, which is tedious, breaks immersion completely and does not have anything in common with what I imagine space trading should be like.

 

[Kramster]

The ability to fit a trade computer to your ship that holds a 'snapshot' of the market at stations you have visited would be in keeping with the games design.
It would be no different to writing it all on a piece of paper.
I use a non crowd source tool https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=74171 which allows me to collect a store my own data instead of having to use pen and paper.
The functions in this tool are ideal and do not use any outside data

 

[Cmdr Andy B]

AndyB, I don't quite understand your concern. I believe you think that I am suggesting a shared database between players and that you therefore compare my suggestion with those external tools.

I am not suggesting that at all.

my concern is that it would make the game too easy, instead of needing to learn the economy types and mechanics of trading all you would need to do is to jump around a half a dozen stations in your area to record the prices in your internal db.

from there instead of having to put any thought into it, all you would need to do is compare the markets to find the most profitable route. there would be little to no skill involved in doing so and instead of playing the game and coming up with your own trade routes you would just follow the trade computer's data to rake in the credits. to me this isn't you playing the game, its the game playing you and if you were to do that you may as well be just another AI.

it would remove the challenge from trading, the skill of a well researched route and make earning credits from trading even more of a grind than it already is.

right now you can take pride in a profitable route you found on your own, add client side data collection, even if only sourced from personal experience and you rob the game of the challenges of trade.

 

[T4ke]

Collection trading data should be an essential feature of every good trading game with a dynamic market that should be implemented in game and not outside the game by forcing the user to take notes or screenshots. ATM trading is not really a challenge its an ordeal in my opinion. I can understand it if someone likes to explore and establish their own trading route with experience but you shouldn't be forcing your curiosity to doing your own thing on others by saying that implementing an optional feature to save collected trade data would make the game to "accessible" or to "easy". I never could understand why some in the ED community argue with this pseudo "Elites Argument". It always sounds like: "Ey we are the exalted, this game is make for US! And for US only! If you don't like it don't play it!.

 

[Nom Anor]

it would remove the challenge from trading, the skill of a well researched route and make earning credits from trading even more of a grind than it already is.

I agree with most of what you say, it *is* a concern, but I'm not sure I agree with this point. There's no skill in having a piece of pen and paper, and just taking a note of the HIGH/MED demand/supply in a grid. It's just good accountancy What *would* damage the playability would be if E: D highlighted the trade routes for you. That's a step too far!

After all, the Exports/Imports and system type are already visible on the System Map for you to , it's not hard to extrapolate to likely demands/supplies. So extending the data to having an expanded list with the "last known price" doesn't really damage the playability. I've even started using Excel to keep the data, and Alt-tabbing to record the DEMAND/SUPPLY. It breaks the immersion, but it's a handy method. Would be a good tool to have in-game really.

Also, if the prices are going to vary with Supply/Demand, just keeping all the Last known prices can be just as much of a downside as an up... Imagine if a glut of "Non-lethal weapons" is unloaded into the Alpha Centauri market, but your computer had the price as a good profit.. oops. nasty surprise when you arrive. Where to dump 80T of cheap tasers?

 

[Seboss]

There seems to be some weird consensus floating around that making trading more convenient would make the game too easy. But that is really a concern of balance and reactiveness of the game's economy, not UI convenience. Are you concerned that good trade routes would be too quick too find? FD can make them dry out faster, forcing Commanders to go look harder elsewhere.

Crippling the UI or limiting it to 1994 standards really have nothing to do with difficulty. I suppose some people long for the day when dungeon crawlers had no automap, but for me there's no arguing that this feature alone reinvigorated the genre.

 

[Sunleader]

I assume it is a technical limitation. Assume 300k players and 24 commodities (I'm pulling numbers out of thin air here) and you are already at 7.2 million rows of data for one single station. Even if you only allow the last 10 stations to be remembered (far too low a cap to be useful) the amount of data involved is simply too much. It would be achievable but it is going to need a lot of money thrown at it and maintenance costs for this database will be high.

Another example is CMDR Thrudd's trade calculator where people are adding systems and prices. He is running into database size problems already and I think he was at 100k systems the last time he announced it.

Simple Solution to this.
Everyone Stores the Data on his own Client.

Problem Solved.

7.2 Million Datasets on 300k Players makes 24 Data Rows for the Client.
Thats pretty much Nothing.

Its not an Data which affects the actual Prices or whatever you got on Server.
Its only like taking a note.

So its not needed to make this server sided.
You could manipulate your Gold Price to show 3 million but since Price on Station is not affected by your notes it wont yield you any profit

 

[ash73]

I'm amazed it's got this far without a price comparison tool, what was everyone doing during beta testing? You still have to pick the right systems to visit, and find two close by to trade between, and market prices fluctuate; typing the numbers into Excel just makes it a chore.

In original Elite you could inspect the prices as soon as you jumped into the system, now you have to dock first; and they had an excuse back then because the game had to fit into 22K of memory.

It's 3301 guys.

 

[Nom Anor]

I'm amazed it's got this far without a price comparison tool, what was everyone doing during beta testing?

I'd guess that Beta Testing is all about making sure the core game isn't fundamentally broken. Job well done, I'd say!

If I was making a new game based on a successful old one, I'd start by making the balancing the same as the old formula, and tweak it from there. I'm guessing that the lengthy Supercruise, and 1980's-simulated computer RAM would be their attempt to not rock the boat too early

 

[Sunleader]

I'd guess that Beta Testing is all about making sure the core game isn't fundamentally broken. Job well done, I'd say!

If I was making a new game based on a successful old one, I'd start by making the balancing the same as the old formula, and tweak it from there. I'm guessing that the lengthy Supercruise, and 1980's-simulated computer RAM would be their attempt to not rock the boat too early

Aye.
In terms of Bugs this Game has really done a Good Job.
Only Minor Bugs where present.

This is really an Critical Part and considering nowdays Projects this is really noteworthy.
Assumably its also one of the main Reasons that this Game has gained such an Large Community in such an Short Time despite missing alot of Functions.



Still with the Time going by.
The Community starts to Demand more than just working Core Functions
We seriously need an Overhaul of the Assistance Systems.

This goes from your Computer Storing Trade Data.
Over your Computer allowing you to Safe certain Routes, (Something what even my Car can do right now already xD)
As well as the Computer being Capable of storaging Data on Equipment, Landing Pads and other Data of an Station.

I mean hey lets face it.
Right now any Freelance Trader in 2015 has better Computer Assistance than what we got in this Game which is supposed to be 3301

 

[Cmdr Andy B]

I agree with most of what you say, it *is* a concern, but I'm not sure I agree with this point. There's no skill in having a piece of pen and paper, and just taking a note of the HIGH/MED demand/supply in a grid. It's just good accountancy What *would* damage the playability would be if E: D highlighted the trade routes for you. That's a step too far!

I'm going to do your head right in here:

I don't even use pen and paper anymore, i stopped doing so at the start of gamma. just mark one brain for me and yet i still managed to figure out a route that takes in 3 station in 2 systems and rakes in 2200 credits per tonne for every trip round my route.

i think this attitude comes from when i was playing the original while i was in boarding school, we used to leave a window open so we could get into the maths room where the BBC's were in the middle of the night so we could play. all the supplies were locked away so we didn't have a pen and paper to write things down on and did it all in our heads.