Balancing of the credit income

[Allant Doran]

Just to reiterate my original point, as the topic has degraded back into ''stop saying trading can't make more.''

Nobody minds trading making MORE. What we DO mind, is trading making anywhere between 4-10x the amount, in the same amount of time, with much, much less active risk.

For every 1 million credits you make in trading, I'd be okay with bounty hunting making 800k reliably, instead of the 200-400k it does.

I mean, it's almost like the game knows it's askew. The cost of an Anaconda is a MASSIVE grind even in a Type-9. How are you ever supposed to make that money in any OTHER profession? I wouldn't mind if it was the Panther Clipper, a gigantic TRADING ship, but so far only traders are making enough money to reasonably get the largest, multi-role ship in the game, in any real time.

MULTI-ROLE. A multi-role ship that cannot be saved up for, and especially sustained by, any other profession right now, in any realistic length of time.

Doubly-so, I don't think there is any profession in the game yet that could handle what I imagine the Anaconda's running costs to be. You'll end up seeing nothing but trading 'condas because it's the only thing that even remotely keeps up with scratching the paint.

 

[Don_Von_Hulio]

One last thing is that real life mercenaries are paid a lot more than people do in trading so stop making real life comparisons.

Eh, a mercenary vs a pilot captain yearly salary is probably about the same. 100-250k.

 

[SE-Apocalypse]

Just to reiterate my original point, as the topic has degraded in ''stop saying trading can't make more.''

Nobody minds trading making MORE. What we DO mind, is trading making anywhere between 4-10x the amount, in the same amount of time, with much, much less active risk.

For every 1 million credits you make in trading, I'd be okay with bounty hunting making 800k reliably, instead of the 200-400k it does.

I mean, it's almost like the game knows it's askew. The cost of an Anaconda is a MASSIVE grind even in a Type-9. How are you ever supposed to make that money in any OTHER profession? I wouldn't mind if it was the Panther Clipper, but so far only traders are making enough money to reasonably get the largest, multi-role ship in the game, in any real time.

Doubly-so, I don't think there is any profession in the game yet that could handle what I imagine the Anaconda's running costs to be. You'll end up seeing nothing but trading 'condas because it's the only thing that even remotely keeps up with scratching the paint.

I would like to mention again that this seems not be a problem with trading itself, but with the lack of profitable piracy against traders. NPC and PC traders need to be valid targets as income source for pirates. This drives bounties, this drives piracy, this drives emergent gameplay. The root problem is the bad piracy mechanics and the worst offender in this regard are not traders, but the bad scooping mechanics for cargo. As it was several times said to have valid income for pirates traders need to have the highest income in the game, because else they could not sustain parasitic professions like bounty hunting and piracy which effectively life from the income traders create. And if piracy is not valid than combat orientated players will do the next best thing. Random acts of terrorism against traders, called by them grieving. It really an issue with the basic mechanics of the game. Everyone who wants bigger ships will do trading and everyone who wants combat will use than his trade money for his combat expenses. That is how eve works for example and it is not a good model to be honest.

 

[Allant Doran]

I would like to mention again that this seems not be a problem with trading itself, but with the lack of profitable piracy against traders. NPC and PC traders need to be valid targets as income source for pirates. This drives bounties, this drives piracy, this drives emergent gameplay. The root problem is the bad piracy mechanics and the worst offender in this regard are not traders, but the bad scooping mechanics for cargo. As it was several times said to have valid income for pirates traders need to have the highest income in the game, because else they could not sustain parasitic professions like bounty hunting and piracy which effectively life from the income traders create. And if piracy is not valid than combat orientated players will do the next best thing. Random acts of terrorism against traders, called by them grieving. It really an issue with the basic mechanics of the game. Everyone who wants bigger ships will do trading and everyone who wants combat will use than his trade money for his combat expenses. That is how eve works for example and it is not a good model to be honest.

Don't get me wrong, I actually agree with you completely.

To simplify my earlier post, I'll say this;

''People are not happy with the disparity between Trade income and all other income, BUT, the issue is NOT necessarily with trading itself. The changes most likely need to happen elsewhere to be brought up to the same standard as trading.''

And my personal example is; My ASP, despite costing SO much more than any Viper, has no opportunity to put itself to the test. I'm not saying saying the ship tiers should be a traditional ''best at the top'' setup. I LIKE that the Viper and Cobra will always have a place.

The problem is, without any better payout options, there's nothing worth risking some hull scratches or low fuel on a Python or Anaconda for, other than turning them into trade boats. And you had to trade to get them in the first place at this rate, so it all just feels a bit like the game is saying ''Trade to get the ship you want, then do the activity you want if trading isn't actually your cup of tea.''

 

[crushdepth]

Eh, a mercenary vs a pilot captain yearly salary is probably about the same. 100-250k.

Third world mercenary salary is more like food and a few bucks a month.

 

[changtau2005]

Just to reiterate my original point, as the topic has degraded back into ''stop saying trading can't make more.''

The cost of an Anaconda is a MASSIVE grind even in a Type-9. How are you ever supposed to make that money in any OTHER profession? I wouldn't mind if it was the Panther Clipper, a gigantic TRADING ship, but so far only traders are making enough money to reasonably get the largest, multi-role ship in the game, in any real time.

I've flown the Conda for a while and I have to say, although it has the firepower boot, due to its low turn rate, you do not want to use it in active combat if you had a choice. IMO the Anaconda is a great trading and exploration vessel, that can defend itself competently if need be, thanks to its excellent shielding and shield cell sizes.

The Python is a much better candidate for a multi-role, sans exploration due to its mediocre jump range.

 

[AndyWeller]

I agree that the missions in the bulletin board don't scale well enough with your own standing / progress.

 

[Allant Doran]

I've flown the Conda for a while and I have to say, although it has the firepower boot, due to its low turn rate, you do not want to use it in active combat if you had a choice. IMO the Anaconda is a great trading and exploration vessel, that can defend itself competently if need be, thanks to its excellent shielding and shield cell sizes.

The Python is a much better candidate for a multi-role, sans exploration due to its mediocre jump range.

Seeing as you've flown one I trust your judgement

But then I would ask; Given that you say it makes a better Exploration and Trading vessel, and I propose that Exploration could currently, realistically, never save up for such a ship, doesn't it seem a shame that Explorers can't save up for their ''top tier'' ship, should they want to abandon their Adders and ASPs?

I'm also hoping one day that the Anaconda has more roles designed for it in combat. NPC Pirate Capital Ships perhaps? haha!

 

[Darkfyre99]

Right now, to have a whole lot of money and huge ship is counterproductive at every single task except trading. Mess up fighting and you either lose an unnecessarily expensive ship or obtain a hefty repair bill which will chew into your profit margin, maybe even go negative. We dont even have have all the ships and we desperatley need more.... but we also need more things to do as well, on top of what little we have.

Multi roles and non-trade ships need more reasons to exist and to use. Some may argue, but this game is extremely linear right now, probably the most linear game ive ever played that wasnt on rails.

For logistics sake on average if one was to trade from the time they got a Type 6 and upped to a 7 then 9 so they can get an Anaconda it would take around 80~ hours of straight trading. Then when you get the Conda... well all you can do to stay afloat is keep trading.

I feel the exact opposite. The fact that bigger isn't always better is IMO the exact opposite of non-linear.

I feel that a lot of the complaints about non-trading roles being underpaid is due to the fact that a lot of people trade until they get a fortune, buy the most expensive ship and gear they can, and start doing a job and fail spectacularly because they don't have the skills to support that ship.

 

[Allant Doran]

I feel the exact opposite. The fact that bigger isn't always better is IMO the exact opposite of non-linear.

I feel that a lot of the complaints about non-trading roles being underpaid is due to the fact that a lot of people trade until they get a fortune, buy the most expensive ship and gear they can, and start doing a job and fail spectacularly because they don't have the skills to support that ship.

Agreed, bigger isn't always better. I love that about the game, currently. I don't think I'll ever trade up my ASP.

Still, the trouble is that if you want truly open gameplay, then a combat-only pilot should have some way, even if it is very difficult, to also be able to save up for, purchase AND run the Anaconda with their credit income. Currently, that's just not even remotely time OR cost viable, which is a shame.

 

[ZenioAlpha]

Another thread.. same responses. Why do people want to decide how other players should make money. Balance the income (of corse there might be some differences) and let everyone decide. Period.
Trading is done with one hand on joystick watching tv (that is how I was trading - zero risk max profit, even after interdiction i just warped away)
In Eve (i understand it's not the same game) there were some activities (exploring, hunting in null sec) that gave you huge ammounts of money but they were risky. Also there were activities like missions ( they were scaling up regardless of their type) or even bounty hunting (bigger better ship more dangerous npc you could encounter).
In this game nothing scales up except damn trading. Want to make assasination missions: no, because every third is bugged and cannot be completed. Want to do missions: no because standings/influence are bugged and income is plan joke. Want to explore: no because further you go more disconnections you get (that was in my case after 1000LS from habitated system)
It's a freaking game, there is nothing like what you need and what you want. If somebody want to trade in Viper it's hes choice not yours. If somebody wants to fight in Type 9, who you are to judge. And again i do not see threads complaining about trading, but I see hundreds of people complaining about all other things to make in this game. Still nothing rings a bell?
If only somebody only done damn trading, he/she should stop discussing balancing the game as clearly he/she has no idea about other professions.

 

[Allant Doran]

I hate to use the EVE example, as I am not fond of the ''X does it, so Y should/Should not too!'' BUT, there is one I can think of that is pertinent;

There are PvE locations in EVE space that are VERY, VERY rewarding, but basically require a Supercarrier to accomplish. For those who aren't EVE-savvy, a Supercarrier is a ship that is phenomenally expensive, a couple of kilometers long, and is unable to even dock at stations due to their size. They must be protected by allies through other means.

To make this comparison apt to Elite; What does Elite's biggest ship even have to do that something else can't do better? Or is owning an Anaconda really ONLY supposed to be an expensive, fun little distraction for the novelty?

Sure, you can explore or what have you in an Anaconda, but since you can afford a Type 9 or an Adder/Asp so much sooner, why even risk it? Why even try to grind out the expenses to pay for it?

 

[Bearded Rooster]

if anything the chain from who makes the most to who makes the least is:
explorers: they are the ones going out finding new planets for inhabiting and also finding mineral rich zones for mining
miners: once the explorers find the fresh newly rich mining deposits this should spawn a gold rush of people mining and selling their newly found wealth
traders/smugglers: once the miners bring in the ore then the traders are responsible to move it from station to station where new goods can be turned into more valuable goods
military: after a "gold rush" is discovered factions and cartels will want to get their hands on it and should pay very well while the conflict is happening
pirates: after the "owner" of the system is established, pirates then parasitically pray off the other carriers to take the valuable data/cargo and make themselves rich
bounty hunters: the influx of pirates will make the less combative carriers slow down and passably halt, so bounty hunters begin slaying pirates in order to restore the order.

this is how the pecking order should be imo. each job feeds off the other and needs to be catered too. as a bounty hunter, myself, i do not mind not making as much as the other carriers and is also at the bottom of the list. but the spread shouldnt be more than 100k-200k per hour in between each of the carriers.

 

[Allant Doran]

And therein lies the problem, for me. Trading is trading. Flat out, no question. You fill your hold for Credits, you empty it for more. There isn't a more difficult trading challenge. The cargo haul just gets bigger.

Currently in Elite, Combat is a more scaling profession, but the scale stops at Viper-level. Exploration and Mining also don't make enough money to save/support massive ships. So the issue for me is how low on the scale of career the other professions stop, not how good trading is. Trading is probably in a good spot. Type 9 pilots SHOULD be making that much credit per hour. But then what of the Python pilots? Sure, it makes killing that 150k mission pirate easier... but you could have done that in a Viper. It wasn't necessary.

I don't mind the game being about unnecessary things in favour of fun, but I would also like to see them have SOME necessity. It should be more about whether you choose to use them for that, not that they don't have any.

 

[ZenioAlpha]

I hate to use the EVE example, as I am not fond of the ''X does it, so Y should/Should not too!'' BUT, there is one I can think of that is pertinent;

There are PvE locations in EVE space that are VERY, VERY rewarding, but basically require a Supercarrier to accomplish. For those who aren't EVE-savvy, a Supercarrier is a ship that is phenomenally expensive, a couple of kilometers long, and is unable to even dock at stations due to their size. They must be protected by allies through other means.

To make this comparison apt to Elite; What does Elite's biggest ship even have to do that something else can't do better? Or is owning an Anaconda really ONLY supposed to be an expensive, fun little distraction for the novelty?

Sure, you can explore or what have you in an Anaconda, but since you can afford a Type 9 or an Adder/Asp so much sooner, why even risk it? Why even try to grind out the expenses to pay for it?

This gave me and idea that maybe devs were thinking that nobody will buy those ships anyway so soon and whole realm for them is not done yet?..

 

[Don_Von_Hulio]

I feel the exact opposite. The fact that bigger isn't always better is IMO the exact opposite of non-linear.

I feel that a lot of the complaints about non-trading roles being underpaid is due to the fact that a lot of people trade until they get a fortune, buy the most expensive ship and gear they can, and start doing a job and fail spectacularly because they don't have the skills to support that ship.

If you want to keep advancing and upgrading to advance faster, you must upgrade to a bigger ship with a bigger hold. Money is power and the same is true in Elite.
You are still correct, in some instances it isnt better... but if you want the optimum income you do need the biggest you can afford.

I doubt someone that bad would make it past an ASP before getting smart. lol

 

[Allant Doran]

You are still correct, in some instances it isnt better... but if you want the optimum income you do need the biggest you can afford.

Unless you're bounty hunting and doing missions. You don't NEED more than a Viper for that content, no matter your wealth.

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This gave me and idea that maybe devs were thinking that nobody will buy those ships anyway so soon and whole realm for them is not done yet?..

Possibly. The Anaconda's price could be set to a point so that we're not awash with them before their tier of content comes in, haha.

 

[Don_Von_Hulio]

Unless you're bounty hunting and doing missions. You don't NEED more than a Viper for that content, no matter your wealth.
.

Thats literally the exact same thing i just said but from the angle of a Hunter... lol

 

[ZenioAlpha]

as a bounty hunter, myself, i do not mind not making as much as the other carriers and is also at the bottom of the list. but the spread shouldnt be more than 100k-200k per hour in between each of the carriers.

As a bounty hunter myself (however tried everything except smuggling and mining) I do not mind I can earn less. My rant is that the current income (bounty hunting/assasinations) is a joke and that after some point (for me it was fully upgraded Viper/Cobra) nothing is scaling in combat. So i Expect that in B class ASP I should be able to earn a bit over 1mil per hours in combat. Due to lack of scaling and npc randomness I earn around 150-450k and npc combat is too easy now.

 

[LongTimePlayer]

I can make 1 million credits in about 30 minutes In a Cobra

So playing 6 hours you can make 12 millions? I think - NOT. As rears doesn't appear that quickly.

And for the serious part:

I can see that the money in this universe are getting very cheap, I can see inflation. Why do we pay millions for something not worth it.
Suggestions

From developers side to do an easy job:
1. Decrease all ships and modules prices by some factor.
2. Decrease all commodities prices by some factor.
3. Give a tractor beam for miners.

That the easiest solution for current situation. I know that it will not solve all the issues with missions scaling and so on... but it will bring trading and ships cost to a level, when bounty hunting will be feasible to do.