Friendly fire thread

[spacejumbofudge]

Friendly Fire Module Friendly Fire Module

There's been a lot of discussion about friendly fire incidents - hitting people other than your target and getting an insta-bounty.

Here's a possible fix that might satisfy both the people who think it's fine and the people who think it isn't.

Create a Friend or Foe module that takes up a utility space or internal space. Taking up a space is important as it makes this approach come with a drawback - these spaces are very important so equipping this unit means you might not also be able to fit a shield cell or Chaff or something.


When fitted, this module records your intent when firing and as a result friendly fire incidents only result in the fine not the bounty. You have to pay for the action as currently, but you can show you didn't commit a crime worthy of attack.

This could be exploited by someone with fixed weapons fitting the system and firing on someone else - the other person couldn't fire back as you wouldn't be wanted. To prevent this you could make the friendly fire unit actually prevent you firing unless you had a target roughly in your firing line.

I think the current system is clearly designed to say 'if fired upon, you can fire back', it just means that accidental shots can have a greater impact than they should. The FOF module would help ensure you were really fired upon, not just hit by a stray bullet.

People who want things to stay as is can just not fit the module, fit a better module instead and consider themselves rewarded for their greater situational awareness.

 

[spacejumbofudge]

I think I've come up with a decent solution that both camps in this argument might find acceptable. A friend or foe module, described in this suggestion thread:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=95416&p=1486431#post1486431

 

[Archvillain]

...Here's a possible fix that might satisfy both the people who think it's fine and the people who think it isn't.
Create a Friend or Foe module that takes up a utility space or internal space.
...When fitted, this module records your intent when firing and as a result friendly fire incidents only result in the fine not the bounty...

Nice idea.
An alternative way it could work is that whenever the module thinks your shot is blocked by a friendly and you press the trigger, it simply doesn't fire the guns and instead flashes up a caution (so you know why the guns didn't fire). Because the module can't know for sure whether a projectile will hit a friendly due (to lead-fire and unpredictable flight paths), the module can err on the side of caution, which can be a further penalty for using it - shots that risk hitting friendlies are stopped, meaning that some stopped-shots could have potentially hit the intended target, but the module was all "tut-tut, none of that!"

 

[spacejumbofudge]

OK looks like my suggestion thread got moved here by a mod. I'm all for keeping all this in one place, but I'm not sure there was anything wrong with having a stand alone module idea in the suggestions thread. Moving it here pretty much means it'll get stamped over by arguing between the two camps and ignored.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

Nice idea.
An alternative way it could work is that whenever the module thinks your shot is blocked by a friendly and you press the trigger, it simply doesn't fire the guns and instead flashes up a caution (so you know why the guns didn't fire). Because the module can't know for sure whether a projectile will hit a friendly due (to lead-fire and unpredictable flight paths), the module can err on the side of caution, which can be a further penalty for using it - shots that risk hitting friendlies are stopped, meaning that some stopped-shots could have potentially hit the intended target, but the module was all "tut-tut, none of that!"

Yeah I put something like that at the end to prevent exploits using fixed weapons.

 

[Archvillain]

I don't agree with the mod jamming the friendly-fire-module idea into this thread. The user presumably posted it in the suggestions discussion area so the idea could be discussed by other users or seen by devs. Burying it under 17 pages of arguments about trigger discipline pretty much kills that.

 

[spacejumbofudge]

I don't agree with the mod jamming the friendly-fire-module idea into this thread. The user presumably posted it in the suggestions discussion area so the idea could be discussed by other users or seen by devs. Burying it under 17 pages of arguments over trigger discipline defeats the point.

Yeah that was my fear, hence putting it in the other thread and then linking to it here. Anyway, it's a tough job being a mod on this forum so I can't really complain. At least someone saw the idea!

As an extension, maybe the FOF module could only really work with gimballed weapons - so if you had a friendly fire incident with a fixed weapon or with gimballed but no target locked, then the existing behaviour would apply. That would further prevent people trying to exploit it to attack someone without getting wanted. It'd also further make it a negative to fit it, making the 'against change' people happier.

 

[Satanski]

Maybe the simplest solution would be to implement system which would check if you were constantly hitting other target just before you hit someone accidentally and in that case issue a fine instead of a bounty. Any drawbacks? Would it be explotable?

 

[spacejumbofudge]

Maybe the simplest solution would be to implement system which would check if you were constantly hitting other target just before you hit someone accidentally and in that case issue a fine instead of a bounty. Any drawbacks? Would it be explotable?

I don't think constantly hitting someone is a great criteria, the criteria should be deliberate vs accidental. The people annoyed with friendly fire as it is are going to be just as annoyed if they miss someone and get a bounty rather than hit someone and get a bounty.

Plus I think it's important to get the drawback of having to use a module space up so people who don't want the current system are happy (or less unhappy). Additionally, the FOF module would be a 'realistic'. The police magically knowing if your shot was deliberate or not makes less sense than you trying to protect yourself by fitting a system that recorded your actions as proof you didn't mean to and only deserve a fine not a bounty.

Be good to get some feedback on the FOF module idea from one of the 'don't change the current system' people.

 

[Satanski]

I don't think constantly hitting someone is a great criteria, the criteria should be deliberate vs accidental. The people annoyed with friendly fire as it is are going to be just as annoyed if they miss someone and get a bounty rather than hit someone and get a bounty.

Plus I think it's important to get the drawback of having to use a module space up so people who don't want the current system are happy (or less unhappy). Additionally, the FOF module would be a 'realistic'. The police magically knowing if your shot was deliberate or not makes less sense than you trying to protect yourself by fitting a system that recorded your actions as proof you didn't mean to and only deserve a fine not a bounty.

Be good to get some feedback on the FOF module idea from one of the 'don't change the current system' people.

To be honest i think its a waste of dev time implementing additional, complicated module when there is much simpler option. I also dont like sacreficing more interesting, tactically viable module otpions for this one. Regarding realism, go look for russian traffic videos on yt. There, everybody have camera in their car ;-). Offcourse im not saying that your proposal shouldt be discussed or considered, good work on having an interesting idea. Its just i wouldnt use it anyway.

 

[spacejumbofudge]

I think the fact someone might not fit it suggests it gets the balance right. I wouldn't fit the nav computer for docking, but some people do.

 

[Satanski]

I think the fact someone might not fit it suggests it gets the balance right. I wouldn't fit the nav computer for docking, but some people do.

Depands on how many people would use it. If its only you and bunch of others, the rest is still unsatisfied and dev time wasted. Maybe make some poll?

 

[spacejumbofudge]

Depands on how many people would use it. If its only you and bunch of others, the rest is still unsatisfied and dev time wasted. Maybe make some poll?

There's people on this thread want a solution. If there are people on this thread that want a solution but one with no downsides, then maybe that's not fair on those that don't want the fundamental rule changes as they don't see a problem?

I know I'd use it when bounty hunting, which is mostly what I do. If you're saying you wouldn't use it because you don't want a module space wasted, maybe you don't see friendly fire as that big a deal, which is why I said I thought it maybe suggested the balance was right. If either EVERYONE wanted to fit it or no one, then you'd be better off not making it at all or changing the fundamental rule.

Does that make sense?

 

[Satanski]

There's people on this thread want a solution. If there are people on this thread that want a solution but one with no downsides, then maybe that's not fair on those that don't want the fundamental rule changes as they don't see a problem?

I know I'd use it when bounty hunting, which is mostly what I do. If you're saying you wouldn't use it because you don't want a module space wasted, maybe you don't see friendly fire as that big a deal, which is why I said I thought it maybe suggested the balance was right. If either EVERYONE wanted to fit it or no one, then you'd be better off not making it at all or changing the fundamental rule.

Does that make sense?

Im not arguing that it doesnt make sense, im just not sure if there is _enough_ interested players to justify spending time implementing it. Note, i dont say that there is not. Whether FF is a big deal for me im not sure as i just decided, i will blow to oblivion any commander who will cross my lasers. Multiple times if i suspect it was on purpose. Actually im getting excited for this hehe. Stupid NPCs are other story, but oh well.

 

[Sherlock161]

This needs to be change ASAP This needs to be change ASAP

Everytime I fight something big, for example Anaconda and other NPC a police are helping me, my gatling accidentely hit the cop and they start attacking me and I have to run away and pay 600 bounty on me. NPC ships should be hostile after multiple hits, not a first single one.

 

[Tettric]

Sounds like you need to watch your fire more. I mean, how are the cops supposed to know you're not in cahoots with the criminal and are defending him?

 

[Enride]

I think the fighting becomes more interesting due to having to watch my fire carefully.
Lend a bit more thought to combat.

 

[Tyler-Rid]

Everytime I fight something big, for example Anaconda and other NPC a police are helping me, my gatling accidentely hit the cop and they start attacking me and I have to run away and pay 600 bounty on me. NPC ships should be hostile after multiple hits, not a first single one.

What I "would like to see" happen, rather than "need" to see happen, is for people to search the forums before starting a new thread on a subject that's been done to death already..

Also, notice the difference between "need" and "would like to see".

 

[3DJutsu]

Sounds like you need to watch your fire more. I mean, how are the cops supposed to know you're not in cahoots with the criminal and are defending him?

If I'm shooting pirates and you streak into my line of fire, how am I defending the pirate?
Imo they should only attack after multiple hits or if you fire at them whilst locked onto them (but then that just lets people free fire without lockon, so multiple hits would work better).
And to fix the problem of the police getting 1-shotted by powerful weapons, all police in that sector/uss/nav beacon become hostile to you if you kill one of them.

 

[CATPAIN KIRK]

You could also turn "report crimes against me" off in the right hand panel - they won't show up then...

 

[Sherlock161]

But gatling bullets have some travel time, I watch my shots, but sometime bullets missed and hit someone else, looks like I will stop using this weapons then. But one single bullet should't make friendly cops hostile, that's just stupid and my reputation suffers too, really frustrating to keep my reputation high in this game.