Friendly fire thread

[gozulio]

This isn't Skyrim. You are not the chosen one. You are a small person in a big universe. The universe does not revolve around you.

after skyrim i would say the world didn't seem to revolve around me in that game either. ungrateful .

on another note. if a cop strays into a vigilantes line of fire, the judge is going to roll his eyes. though i havent heard someone say the cops are there grudgingly accepting your help, definitely an interesting thing to think about.

anyway, AI could be a bit more mindful about firing arcs. ...then again so could i. ^.^

 

[Major Lag]

I find this behaviour a lot of fun, actually, because in the end it makes me a better pilot. I don't know you what motivates you, but I for one find it refreshing that I can't behave like a bull in the china shop.

Flying in real Newtonian space flight would make me a better space ship pilot too, doesn't mean its fun for the vast majority of people. Since the designers said game play trumps realism it will be up to them to decide what the best game play regardless of how it relates to reality.

And if that stray shot went straight through your cranium, you'd be singing a different song, I'm sure. Well, you'd be dead, of course, so you could sing with the angels. Hit a cop - get out and pay off your bounty - come back and try a bit harder not to hit the cops. Learn and adapt.

Are we talking about killing the cops? No we are talking about single stray shots that bounce off their shields, your not making any sense.

 

[KillaALF]

Again, strawmen.
No one asks for 0 consequences for friendly fire.
People ask for reasonable penalty, not a mandatory 10-minute trip to a station to pay 300 cr bounty.

A 10 minute trip (you must hunt quite far off the grid) sounds like a reasonable penalty to me, but then again, I hardly ever hit the cops, so the point is moot.

 

[Zvanya]

You're right, it does need to change ASAP. Improve your awareness and stop shooting the cops.

Yeah I was thinking about the same thing.

 

[Dissentient]

A 10 minute trip (you must hunt quite far off the grid) sounds like a reasonable penalty to me, but then again, I hardly ever hit the cops, so the point is moot.

As I said, during the time I got 620 bounties, I accidentally hit someone around four times, which is once in 150 destroyed ships.
This penalty is simply annoying and inconvenient: I'd rather pay 20k fine without a bounty than waste my time doing the boring jump-cruise-dock routine.

 

[Rockspider]

It's like you people aren't capable of rationality. Does it not occur to you that the damage threshold before turning hostile could be quite minimal?
Not a single person has suggested that they should be immune to the consequences of friendly fire or be completely reluctant to return fire until they're at 1% hull.
How the - do you come to this extremity?

Now this is the crux of it at some point some one would friendly fire one extra hit past any set amount!?! I have a bounty boohoo

and be on here complaining friendly fire is set too low blah blah blah

You can not win lol

 

[Dissentient]

Now this is the crux of it at some point some one would friendly fire one extra hit past any set amount!?! I have a bounty boohoo

and be on here complaining friendly fire is set too low blah blah blah

You can not win lol

Not having to make a trip to the station because of a stray bullet that did 0.0001% shield damage is a huge win.

By the way, remember that last hit issue? They fixed it. Now no one complains.

 

[Speedbird]

Ok,

game or no game, you are flying a deadly weapon.

when I was learning weapons and later teaching them rule 1 was to respect it at all time and never ever point it at anything that you did not want to hit.

when training for a range officer, we were taught that everyone was an idiot, including us. We never took chances, we understood our arcs of fire, our safe zones, and the weapons we were using, and we knew when anything was in the danger zone we checked fire.

i have no sympathy to any CMDR who hits a player, npc's, or system authority ship in game.

when you have a deadly weapon at your disposal, you take FULL responsibility for its use, and your actions. Hit anything other then your target and you will get the consequences.

rules.

1. You are responsible.
2. Police have the right of way, you are doing it for money, they are doing it as a job.
3. Clean/ innocent means just that.
4. Not sure, CHECK FIRE.
5. Lost a bounty due to 1-4 tough, go deal with it.
6. You are responsible

Speedbird.

 

[Dissentient]

game or no game, you are flying a deadly weapon.

You are trying to sound important, but what you are saying is a load of complete irrelevancy.

5. Lost a bounty due to 1-4 tough, go deal with it.

I actually never lost a bounty because of that. System authority vessels are so harmless that I can safely finish my kill while taking their fire, even if it's an anaconda with more than 50% hull left.

And by the way, even if it's such a big issue, why am I paying a measly 300 credits for that?

 

[Major Lag]

game or no game, you are flying a deadly weapon.

Who here or anywhere has reported killing a cop with stray fire? No one.

In real life a stray bullet can insta-kill, but in real life no one gets executed for friendly fire, this isn't real life.

I don't think anyone has a problem with bounties for killing a cop or a fine for hitting them.

2. Police have the right of way, you are doing it for money, they are doing it as a job.

Isn't making money the definition of a job? Then again this is supposed to be a fun game that sacrifices reality to some degree for fun.

 

[Arubeto]

By the way, remember that last hit issue? They fixed it. Now no one complains.

A lot of people were unhappy about the update because it allowed little sidewinders to get bounties for elite anacondas if they hit it just once, within ten seconds of the anacondas' death, after security forces or other NPCs did the main part of wearing down the anaconda. There even has been a thread about someone gaining combat ranks ridiculously fast by exploiting this new mechanic in a high conflict zone without actually doing a lot of damage himself.

It's the same with this new request. People who only want to play dogfights and nothing else demand that everything else is optional. If you don't want to fly to the station to pay your bounty be extra careful not to hit the police with stray bullets. And if it happens anyway once while taking down hundreds of wanted ships - what's the big deal? If it is so rare that you accidentally hit security forces than getting back to the station to pay your bounty is rare as well. If, on the other hand, you hit security forces often and deliberately, it's your own fault and you should learn to aim better.

Edit: have a read of the Reputation thread in the DDA: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=6279 The plan initially was even harsher, in a way that you could loose reputation by just deploying weapons near a police craft, since it could deem it a threat. This never materialized, but now people complain for being punished when shooting a police vessel? That's just ridiculous. I am not a very good dogfighter by a long shot, and even I managed to avoid hitting police crafts after my first time accidentally hitting one in early beta. If it happens for you once in while, because you are doing so much bounty hunting, carry the consequences and pay your bounty of at the station. If you pay as much attention to not hitting police crafts as you say, it won't happen to often anyway.

 

[Red Kite]

I have posted numerous replies to indignant commanders who have been bitten by the friendly fire problem. Then I got caught myself and thanks to some stupid choices it cost me a lot of money.

My own fault, but it hasn't changed my opinion. When using weapons in an area where you know there are police and clean civilians around it is your responsibility to avoid your fire hitting the wrong targets.

What I still feel is unbalanced is the level of penalty. A few stray hits, causing no significant damage, should attract a moderate fine, say 500Cr or so, not a bounty for attempted murder. If you persistently hit police or a clean ship which you have targetted then you deserve the maximum penalty.

 

[Dissentient]

A lot of people were unhappy about the update because it allowed little sidewinders to get bounties for elite anacondas if they hit it just once, within ten seconds of the anacondas' death, after security forces or other NPCs did the main part of wearing down the anaconda.

Those people have no right to be unhappy because it doesn't concern them, and in general, combat earns tiny amounts of money compared to trading so it's not a problem.

There even has been a thread about someone gaining combat ranks ridiculously fast by exploiting this new mechanic in a high conflict zone without actually doing a lot of damage himself.

You can't make it ridiculously fast, as NPCs are extremely slow at killing each other.

And in general, it's the issue with how FD fixed the problem. They could just credit the kill to the one who did the most amount of damage in last 60 seconds, for example. Instead, they just went with something extremely simple which always favors the player.
Anyway, this new issue of lasthitting for bounties you can't kill yourself is way less serious compared to what it was before.

It's the same with this new request. People who only want to play dogfights and nothing else demand that everything else is optional. If you don't want to fly to the station to pay your bounty be extra careful not to hit the police with stray bullets. And if it happens anyway once while taking down hundreds of wanted ships - what's the big deal? If it is so rare that you accidentally hit security forces than getting back to the station to pay your bounty is rare as well. If, on the other hand, you hit security forces often and deliberately, it's your own fault and you should learn to aim better.

It's a big deal simply because it's annoying and actually not in any way punishing. If you want situational awareness to actually impact person's ability to earn money, instead of 200 cr bounty for assault, make it 10000 cr [or whatever you deem reasonable] fine. Now you don't have to waste time paying 200 cr bounties while people who actually watch their fire earn more money than those who don't.

 

[Major Lag]

The plan initially was even harsher, in a way that you could loose reputation by just deploying weapons near a police craft, since it could deem it a threat. This never materialized, but now people complain for being punished when shooting a police vessel? That's just ridiculous. I am not a very good dogfighter by a long shot, and even I managed to avoid hitting police crafts after my first time accidentally hitting one in early beta.

Point defense turrets used to count in beta too, so if someone shot a missile at you a stray shot would count as hit, they changed that because it wasn't fun. Realistic, not fun, they changed it. There is still some sort of situation where the point defense will set off a station and get you insta-killed.

If you have only hit a cop once then your not in combat enough. I have gotten better at avoiding them because of the bounty system, I would have done the same with a fine too except I would have had much more fun doing so.

No one is complaining about being punished, only that the punishment is too severe, no reason to be hyperbolic.

 

[Speedbird]

there is a difference between the police and a person who vigilante.

the police do not choose when and where they have to go, they get the task/ job, and sometime that will put them in harms way. You make the choice to put yourself in combat, you decide to take that risk.

Because of of that choice, you also forfeit the right to complain when you hit a system authority vessel. You do not have to run to the sound of the guns, they do. Difference between job and carrer choice.

Speedbird.

 

[spacejumbofudge]

This thread should be locked, it's become a dumping ground and every possible point of view stated.

I put a perfectly good solution on page 16/17, but that just gets buried by another thread getting dumped on top then everyone pilling in to say 'it's meant to be hard, get better' or 'this is annoying as is' without even pretending to see things from the other persons pov.

 

[Speedbird]

You are trying to sound important, but what you are saying is a load of complete irrelevancy.
I actually never lost a bounty because of that. System authority vessels are so harmless that I can safely finish my kill while taking their fire, even if it's an anaconda with more than 50% hull left.

And by the way, even if it's such a big issue, why am I paying a measly 300 credits for that?

Try telling anyone who carries a weapon that they are not responsible, it is the first thing that we are taught, responsibility
ergo, not irrelevant, unless you do not care for consequences. But I always like dissenters, they make life fun

what I take umbrage with is those CMDRs who complain about the consequences of their actions to the extent s that they want the mechanic changed, when a simple bit of restraint would suffice on their part. I.e do not shoot when someone else is in your firing arc.

Speedbird.

 

[Major Lag]

there is a difference between the police and a person who vigilante.

Not in the world of Elite where we are essentially private police augmenting the public ones. Vigilantes don't get paid for their actions.

the police do not choose when and where they have to go, they get the task/ job, and sometime that will put them in harms way. You make the choice to put yourself in combat, you decide to take that risk.

Because of of that choice, you also forfeit the right to complain when you hit a system authority vessel. You do not have to run to the sound of the guns, they do. Difference between job and carrer choice.

Are you implying the police are slaves and have no choice? Because otherwise they can quit and become a trader or explorer just like the rest of us. There is no lore that says cops have no choice any more than we do. This is a silly argument.

 

[Arubeto]

Those people have no right to be unhappy because it doesn't concern them...

If that is so, then why do you complain yourself about people who make more money than you by successfully avoiding to hit security ships?

Now you don't have to waste time paying 200 cr bounties while people who actually watch their fire earn more money than those who don't.

It's just another case of "that doesn't concern you". Also, you say it yourself: those people earning more watch their fire! Shouldn't they be rewarded for that?

It's a big deal simply because it's annoying and actually not in any way punishing. If you want situational awareness to actually impact person's ability to earn money, instead of 200 cr bounty for assault, make it 10000 cr [or whatever you deem reasonable] fine.

Ok, I agree, a high fine would be more appropriate than a low bounty. But then you'd definitely need some kind of threshold, since otherwise you could continuously shoot at police ships while only receiving fines.
Instead at some point (said threshold) the game should say: "enough is enough, this is not just merely a commander with a bad aim, this guy deliberately shoots at security vessels, for which he gets a bounty instead of a fine!"
To finetune this threshold would be much more subjective (and everyone would have his own threshold that he'd think would be appropriate - most likely proportional to his own flying skills or rather the lack of it) than just saying: "every hit on a police vessel results in a bounty, period", and therefore would produce even more discussion and frustrated pilots that would argue "lower that threshold, it's to harsh" until it's meaningless altogether.

You can't make it ridiculously fast, as NPCs are extremely slow at killing each other.

With "ridiculously fast" I only meant he got awarded many more kills than he should have, thus exploiting the system. That guy just flew around in a combat zone and more or less "tagged" low health ships shortly before they were destroyed.

And in general, it's the issue with how FD fixed the problem. They could just credit the kill to the one who did the most amount of damage in last 60 seconds, for example. Instead, they just went with something extremely simple which always favors the player.

They actually had a pretty long discussions about the way how and if to share bounties among multiple commanders that were involved in taking down a wanted ship. Since I wasn't to interested in the topic at that time I can't tell you what the reason was to opt for the current system where only one commander gets money from taking down a wanted ship, but I know they didn't choose this mechanic lightly or just because they were to lazy to implement something else.

what I take umbrage with is those CMDRs who complain about the consequences of their actions to the extent s that they want the mechanic changed, when a simple bit of restraint would suffice on their part. I.e do not shoot when someone else is in your firing arc.

This pretty much describes how I feel about this topic, too.

 

[Arubeto]

Are you implying the police are slaves and have no choice? Because otherwise they can quit and become a trader or explorer just like the rest of us. There is no lore that says cops have no choice any more than we do. This is a silly argument.

You deliberately misunderstand what he is saying. The police is send where it's needed. Doesn't have anything to do with being a "slave" or not having a choice. If you want to keep talking about it "in-game", you could say "those NPCs choose to become policemen; by this they of course became responsible to fulfill their duties."