Scrap or redesign shield cell modules, they are too overpowered and trivialize PvP.

[NeilF]

I'm not suggesting anything. People can choose what they want and live with the consequences of their choices. When I fly in an ASP equipped as a trader I have dual chaff, dual cells and a weapons load-out to give me time to bug out. I also fly so that it's very hard to get interdicted. Once interdicted I don't care what the other guy is loaded with. If they have 4 sets of cells or none that is their choice not mine. They play their hand and I play mine and let the cards fall where they may.

So be honest... If you had an Asp with 1 shield cell unit, and you fought another equally equipped Asp but with 3 or more Shield Cells... Who do you recon would win most times? I think we both know the answer

So why should it come down simply to who has the more Shield Cells to use wins? Is that good mechanics, or should some sort of more skill based factor maybe dictate it a little more?

 

[Khan]

Khaaaaaan. Sorry couldn't resist. Seriously though I have not flown bigger ships yet either and that is why I said perhaps they should be limited to the larger and slower traders and such to allow for increased survivability. We just can't continue with the complete removal of skill that they provide for currently.

Its more along the lines of once you get that large, shields go down stupid rapidly with any given load-out. When you get to that point, a lost engagement can also cost the amount to 5 million+ lost on the spot. Cells make those fights bearable, and escape-able. Cells also keep stupids in the Viper from being stupid and making things like the Asp pointless to fly. Even though it already is unless you are flying out to the edge of the galaxy, but that's beside the point.

Why are you intent on doing off topic?

Anyhoo! An Asp can bring a shield that's about 30% more powerful to the battlefield. And if people use the C1 spots for lasers and C2 for cannons/autocannons, then the Asp has twice as many.

Once again, not 30%, try again and this time don't use the Google spread sheet

Maybe we can stick to the topic rather than "frills"?

And you wonder why Shields feel OP with that load-out!

Class 1 lasers, have all forty of my keks.

 

[Phaaded]

This would be my answer.

Honestly, an Asp with cells vs an Asp without ... what are we going to do next, make sure that Vipers with weapons can't battle Type 6's without weapons?

I mean, what about a Python fully decked taking on a Sidewinder fully decked? I don't get this argument. This game isn't a dueling game, it's not designed around 'evenly matched PVP' but here we are trying to change basic functions of a mainly PVE game to make sure CMDR DuelDAEMON can fight CMDR DuelMcDuelz on an equal footing when all one has to do is earn more credits to have a better ship. What if his Thrusters are A and the other's is E? What if the shields on the Asp are one class lower than the other Asp?

You see where I'm going with this? If you want to PVP, you kit for it. I have two in my Asp 'just in case'. I sacrifice cargo space and any other module that would fit there that may come in useful.

Same sacrifice for a Trader, it's the shield vs cargo space.

From what I read it's people angry that fights last longer than 30 seconds. Are we going to stop people from buying better weapons than their opponents? This game isn't about 'balancing around dueling'. I'm only in this thread in case the developers read it to show that my absolute worst fear for this game is for it to become "balanced around 1v1" fights which is exactly what nerfing one aspect of the game would be when there are 100 other ways to 'imbalance' 1v1 as it is.



NPC Anaconda? Sure. Why not. What does it affect me? If they want to stack up their entire inventory with "health potions" why should I stop them? Maybe increase the NPC difficulty and AI instead of taking away a valid tactic that can be used.

You clearly have no concept of balance.

All things being equal, the guy with more shield cells wins. THERE IS NO TACTICAL CHOICE OR TRADEOFF.

It is a poorly designed, unimaginative module that should not exist. So many better ways to allow ships to tank damage.

 

[NeilF]

Simple. Active module that when online restores power to shields at the cost of Systems capacitor. Boom, problem solved. Now you must make tactical decisions on what to power, instead of 3/3 eng/wep or even 4/2 while potion spamming.

There should also be a hull variant.

I know, it's like, imagination, or something.

I considered something along those lines, but I was wary of:-
- how big a negative impact it would have draining SYS.
- what if you have no SYS anyway? What's the penalty?

 

[Evil]

You clearly have no concept of balance.

All things being equal, the guy with more shield cells wins. THERE IS NO TACTICAL CHOICE OR TRADEOFF.

It is a poorly designed, unimaginative module that should not exist. So many better ways to allow ships to tank damage.

The chance of PvP equality within Elite is extremely slim (let alone the equality of external control and perfs), there are many variables to any single encounter, if you are looking for equality balanced PvP, this is the wrong game, and when wings are released the balance you are calling for will be even more obscure.

Shield cells are a fine mechanism.

 

[Jer the Stampede]

I'm not suggesting anything. People can choose what they want and live with the consequences of their choices. When I fly in an ASP equipped as a trader I have dual chaff, dual cells and a weapons load-out to give me time to bug out. I also fly so that it's very hard to get interdicted. Once interdicted I don't care what the other guy is loaded with. If they have 4 sets of cells or none that is their choice not mine. They play their hand and I play mine and let the cards fall where they may.

I guess the problem is with shield cells in smaller ships is one thing but when scaled up to Anacondas and the alike it's perfectly possible to build an invincible configuration.

The problem plain and simple is skill is secondary to how many shield cells a ship has and no matter which way that is sugar coated it's wrong and not conducive of good game play. I have no doubt shield cells will be addressed either by nerf or counter measure at some point, so for now let everyone enjoy their health potions while they last

Personally I lean more towards shield cells being a means to accelerate bringing downed shields back online or as they are now with a cooldown time comparable to a shield generators recharge time.

 

[AlexRyder]

So be honest... If you had an Asp with 1 shield cell unit, and you fought another equally equipped Asp but with 3 or more Shield Cells... Who do you recon would win most times? I think we both know the answer

It depends on which of the Asps I am flying

 

[bassman]

You clearly have no concept of balance.

All things being equal, the guy with more shield cells wins. THERE IS NO TACTICAL CHOICE OR TRADEOFF.

It is a poorly designed, unimaginative module that should not exist. So many better ways to allow ships to tank damage.

Indeed, for instance hull strength and upgrades are now pretty much an irrelevant tactical parameter wheres as pre shield cells hull strengh was a key consideration.

I would favor binning cells and making hulls much tougher (and tougher still with hull upgrades) perhaps also provide a bigger range of hull upgrades with some being super tough but also very heavy, this would provide alot of scope for proper tactical tradeoffs.

Also we played without shield cells for a good 6 months and I dont recall anyone moaning about fights being too quick, it being too hard to run away, or ships to easy to kill in general or really any of the justifications now being voiced in support of cells. In these "good old days" a fight wasnt necessarily over when one person lost shields because there was still a chance that you could get the other guys down, nowadays if you lose shields before the other guy and he has cells left your stuffed unless he messes up really badly.

 

[Morbad]

So why should it come down simply to who has the more Shield Cells to use wins?

It doesn't.

You clearly have no concept of balance.

All things being equal, the guy with more shield cells wins. THERE IS NO TACTICAL CHOICE OR TRADEOFF.

All things being equal, the guy with more/better shield cells is heavier and can't catch the other guy in the first place.

And yes, I have been in situations where a 2-3m/s advantage speed was the difference between victory and defeat...actually more of these than where SCBs were the difference.

The chance of PvP equality within Elite is extremely slim (let alone the equality of external control and perfs), there are many variables to any single encounter, if you are looking for quality balanced PvP, this is the wrong game, and when wings are released the balance you are calling for will be even more obscure.

Agreed. If you want to take balance to an absurd level, you should probably be playing Tekken or something, and make sure you choose the same character as your opponent.

skill is secondary to how many shield cells a ship has

No, it's not.

 

[Evil]

Indeed, for instance hull strength and upgrades are now pretty much an irrelevant tactical parameter wheres as pre shield cells hull strengh was a key consideration.

I would favor binning cells and making hulls much tougher (and tougher still with hull upgrades) perhaps also provide a bigger range of hull upgrades with some being super tough but also very heavy, this would provide alot of scope for proper tactical tradeoffs.

No need to bin cells, yup many more modules, armour repairs, combat drones, EMP etc.. would all be good to mix it up in pvp !

 

[CreepyD]

What if shield cells recharge shields from your SYS pool of energy.
If you have a full tank of SYS energy, then sure it's going to work to it's fullest and restore your shield.
If you are empty it's going to do jack all.

That way ok you have lots of shield cells, but you need to divert power to use them, meaning your powering down engines or weapons - a tradeoff.

If you're trying to escape 4 pips to shields and 2 to engines likely wont work even with shield cells against anyone who can shoot anyway - you will take damage.

Having said that I still think we should only be able to equip 1 shield cell though.

 

[Flyinpiranha]

You clearly have no concept of balance.

All things being equal, the guy with more shield cells wins. THERE IS NO TACTICAL CHOICE OR TRADEOFF.

It is a poorly designed, unimaginative module that should not exist. So many better ways to allow ships to tank damage.

I do have a concept of balance, in small scale PVP based MMO's or MP games that I have played, I would see the problem.

Did you read my post? What if I brought a Python and they had a Sidewinder? Is that not "unbalanced". What if I had all the best kitted out weapons, and they had nothing in a T6? Is that not "unbalanced".

This game is not designed around 1v1 balance that is being addressed here. People talking about "what if we both had two Asp and ... blah, blah". It's up the USER to decide what is best for him.

What if there are two Vipers vs one Sidewinder? What if there are 4 Pythons vs 1 Cobra? You see where I'm going with this?

The game is not balanced around 1v1 and hopefully will never be.

 

[Phaaded]

I considered something along those lines, but I was wary of:-
- how big a negative impact it would have draining SYS.
- what if you have no SYS anyway? What's the penalty?

Balance can be worked out later, that's what beta was for....

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

I do have a concept of balance, in small scale PVP based MMO's or MP games that I have played, I would see the problem.

Did you read my post? What if I brought a Python and they had a Sidewinder? Is that not "unbalanced". What if I had all the best kitted out weapons, and they had nothing in a T6? Is that not "unbalanced".

This game is not designed around 1v1 balance that is being addressed here. People talking about "what if we both had two Asp and ... blah, blah". It's up the USER to decide what is best for him.

What if there are two Vipers vs one Sidewinder? What if there are 4 Pythons vs 1 Cobra? You see where I'm going with this?

The game is not balanced around 1v1 and hopefully will never be.

Your entire argument literally makes no sense.

There is no tradeoff. Shield cells vs no shield cells, sheild cells win. This, is not balanced. It's really, really simple.

 

[Flyinpiranha]

EDIT: Nevermind, looks like I'm wrong.

 

[Sandro Sammarco]

Hello Commanders!

Just a quick heads up: we've been looking at the stats for shield cell banks and have made some tweaks, which should filter out in a near future update. Basically, cell capacities have been reduced, cost per cell has been increased, and the passive power draw for having a cell bank active has increased.

We're not totally convinced this is the end of tweaking shield cell banks, but we think it will be a move in the right direction.

 

[Flyinpiranha]

Hello Commanders!

Just a quick heads up: we've been looking at the stats for shield cell banks and have made some tweaks, which should filter out in a near future update. Basically, cell capacities have been reduced, cost per cell has been increased, and the passive power draw for having a cell bank active has increased.

We're not totally convinced this is the end of tweaking shield cell banks, but we think it will be a move in the right direction.

Wonderful. Fixing the game for PVP "balance". I guess I know where this road goes ...

 

[NeilF]

Hello Commanders!

Just a quick heads up: we've been looking at the stats for shield cell banks and have made some tweaks, which should filter out in a near future update. Basically, cell capacities have been reduced, cost per cell has been increased, and the passive power draw for having a cell bank active has increased.

We're not totally convinced this is the end of tweaking shield cell banks, but we think it will be a move in the right direction.

Thanks for the update. But until you can only have one of these fitted to your craft, IMHO it will simply stay an arms race. ie: If two CMDRs are fighting and one simply has more shield cell units, we all know who will win. So players feel compelled to have two... then three.. then four...

Limit it to one please.


Worse case make it so you can only have one Shield Cell unit active at a time, and if you move to another, there's a significant charge time or something. ie: So in a single combat a CMDR cannot simply move from Shield Cell unit 1 to 2 to 3. However, after a combat has completed and they have time they can move to unit 2 and wait for it to be available ready for the next combat.


ps: Or are you hoping increasing the power draw will achieve this somehow? So having more than one online at a time will be tricky?

Wonderful. Fixing the game for PVP "balance". I guess I know where this road goes ...

With individuals being unecessarily sarcastic? Especially when it seems they're not getting their way?

 

[ATrifleMiffed]

Hello Commanders!

Just a quick heads up: we've been looking at the stats for shield cell banks and have made some tweaks, which should filter out in a near future update. Basically, cell capacities have been reduced, cost per cell has been increased, and the passive power draw for having a cell bank active has increased.

We're not totally convinced this is the end of tweaking shield cell banks, but we think it will be a move in the right direction.

Might I suggest giving them a cooldown instead? These changes will only result in people packing more of them into a ship, and nothing to alleviate their overpowered nature. They are supposed to be an emergency measure, not a device that lets a Cobra absorb volleys from an Anaconda for upwards of five minutes. A cooldown would make them useful, while not veering into being mandatory for anyone who intends to fight. A small ship should not be capable of destroying a near-capital ship that is several million times more expensive, which is currently the case whn fighting assassination targets.

 

[Sandro Sammarco]

Hello Commander Flyinpiranha!

I should add that the main reason we're tweaking the shield cell bank is simply because we think our initial numbers were a bit messed up.

I think it's fair to say that a shield cell bank will potentially give a combatant a significant advantage in terms of survivability even after our changes. The way they work has not fundamentally changed at all.

However, before the tweaks, their various costs failed to update in line with other values, making them fairly ridiculously good value, which was never the intention.

 

[psyantologist]

I agree shield cells are overpowered. Even implementing just your first idea, a limit of one per ship, would help a lot.

Yeah. That.