Scrap or redesign shield cell modules, they are too overpowered and trivialize PvP.
- Thread starter KazumaKat
- Start date
Hello Commander Johnny Spaceboots! and Commander Defacto!
Argh, just saw this as I was turning stuff off in the office! Must... Reply... (don't worry, that just means I enjoy the conversation).
Don't worry, we don't have to agree! And also, you may be right!
Sure, cells keep your shields up, but in my experience, when I'm taking a lot of hits from a ship I can't hit very well, having more shields doesn't help me destroy them...
Although at it's heart there will always be a whiff of the restorative about shield cells (because, well, they're consumables), it has always been the intention to involve timing skill in their use: this is why there is a delay when using a cell before the regenerative effect kicks in.
When the tweaks roll out, Commanders will have less of them, using them will be more expensive, and potentially they might have to alter or mess with their power plant settings to carry them.
If this proves to have little to no effect (and honestly, the jury is out for me at the moment, I will look forward to seeing the results) then we'll go further.
My first line of thought runs to some additional negative effect that triggers if a cell is used and the shield is not badly damaged, coupled with a longer delay between triggering a cell and receiving its benefits. In theory, this would mean that you would need to use a cell within a window of opportunity or risk A) leaving it too late and having the shield break or B) using it too soon and having something bad happen (like damage to your shield generator, or no benefit of the cell, etc.)
But, one step at a time.
And now, really for real this time, have a great weekend!
I appreciate you taking the time to have a conversation about this, and I like that you seem to be open to suggestions.
Is there any reason that they have to be consumables with a restorative effect? What if it was a temporary boost that consumed SYS power, overcharging your shields for a short time at which point it returns to normal. This way, lets say you have a viper decked out completely with dumbfire missiles on your tail. He fires all of them at you, but you time it just right so that your overcharged shields allow you to absorb the barrage without getting obliterated, after which your shields return to normal, your sys bar is depleted (so you can't spam it) and you need to recharge before you can do that again.
This, in my mind, achieves more of the goal of staying alive while not determining the outcome of a fight before it even begins (an example being two cobras with similar loadouts and pilots, one with 25 cells, one with 30. The second one will pretty much just straight up win) via straight up having more health than the opponent. It's also more skill based, and the opponent could basically overcome it by noticing the overcharge and holding their fire (thereby allowing them more time to recharge their weapons).
I dunno. I just find an active block mechanic to be preferable to a mechanic that essentially just multiplies your HP via consumable shield potions.
And making them more expensive is a really underwhelming solution. At a certain point, money loses its relevance in the game.
This isn't an issue of it being "hard." It's an issue of it seemingly being almost mathematically impossible to destroy the player abusing the cells. 3 players + some npcs using teamwork and skill vs 1 player in a python, not even bothering to avoid fire whatsoever. What's the result? The python kills one of the players and escapes with zero damage. Ridiculous.
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Making them more expensive is, I think, the worst possible solution. Combat, real combat, is already an incredibly money-sink. Fights should be about skill and equipment, not simply who is most willing to dump in credits they won't recoup.
Something definitely needs to be done about them though. Most of my fight end up being half an hour of more trying to run out the other person's shield cells, followed by the first person to be about to run out running away because it's an incredibly lopsided fight if your opponent has shield cells and you don't. (Or with both parties just agreeing to end the fight in a draw).
Here is what I would suggest:
Shield cells only increase your shield power to a max of 75% of whatever max value you reached since the last shield cell was used.
Can someone keep spamming shield cells, here? Yes, but if they're under constant fire the whole time, the benefit is going to steadily decrease unless they pull off and recharge normally.
Person is at 100% shield, drops to 10%, uses a cell. This brings him back up to 75% (assuming no damage taken during the recharge!) If fire then resumes, and brings him down to 10% again, the next boost only brings him up to 56%... and the next to 42%. Diminishing benefits.
Suddenly, there's a reason to not use a shield cell. The more often you use them, the more often you HAVE to use them to get the same level of protection.
And then, suddenly, much more quickly, you'll be out.
While a player who combines his shield cells with normal defensive strategy, cuts sight lines and uses obstacles and positioning, will get far more benefit out of the same number of shield cells by choosing NOT to use them.
Something definitely needs to be done about them though. Most of my fight end up being half an hour of more trying to run out the other person's shield cells, followed by the first person to be about to run out running away because it's an incredibly lopsided fight if your opponent has shield cells and you don't. (Or with both parties just agreeing to end the fight in a draw).
Here is what I would suggest:
Shield cells only increase your shield power to a max of 75% of whatever max value you reached since the last shield cell was used.
Can someone keep spamming shield cells, here? Yes, but if they're under constant fire the whole time, the benefit is going to steadily decrease unless they pull off and recharge normally.
Person is at 100% shield, drops to 10%, uses a cell. This brings him back up to 75% (assuming no damage taken during the recharge!) If fire then resumes, and brings him down to 10% again, the next boost only brings him up to 56%... and the next to 42%. Diminishing benefits.
Suddenly, there's a reason to not use a shield cell. The more often you use them, the more often you HAVE to use them to get the same level of protection.
And then, suddenly, much more quickly, you'll be out.
While a player who combines his shield cells with normal defensive strategy, cuts sight lines and uses obstacles and positioning, will get far more benefit out of the same number of shield cells by choosing NOT to use them.
Because they weren't very coordinated and their loadouts were ill-suited to the task at hand (the destruction of the most powerfully shielded ship in the game, piloted by a competent human, and equipped with the strongest SCBs it can carry).
If I had five people, two of them would be running all beam lasers and two heatsink launchers each (each heatsink restores three bars of WEP on an A3 distributor...dump them all as fast as you can and you get quite a bit of laser in a short time), two of them with a mix of railguns and torpedo pylons (for destroying any anti-missile defenses, if any, then the FSD), and one with four dumbfire racks (for whenever the opportunity presented itself). If the attacks could be synchronized well enough, any two of these could probably be omitted.
At numerous points during the fight SUBSYNK was performing very linear maneuvers while running down individual fighters and would have been highly vulnerable to dumbfires. Certainly he would have mixed things up a bit more had he been in more danger, but it's very hard to fight several people at once with a slower ship and not leave an opening for at least a few of them.
NPC have been using SCBs since late Beta 2. It's not even that rare, and I have no idea why the idea persists that NPCs don't use them.
[video=youtube;y98_xOrr4Kc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y98_xOrr4Kc[/video]
Maybe one-in-four of the NPCs I encounter has an SCB they can be prompted to use. They are especially common in Conflict Zones amongst higher rank ships.
He probably just would have left immediately once he realized he was heavily outnumbered.
You added it more than two months ago!
darshu
Banned
I feel like people don't understand what the python actually costs. Please fit one out on this site http://www.edshipyard.com/ and take a look at the price tag at the bottom right and tell me why it shouldn't be able to handle a few fighters that cost a very small fraction of what it does.
I have been reading this thread from the start and it just seem to me like you are complain and moaning that it takes more than a couple minutes to destroy a larger more expensive vessel. Are shield cells unbalanced? Yes I very well agree, but like the dev said knocking it down to a single module is not clearly an option as there is other ways to try and balance it. A cooldown is still a silly idea. We don't need silly timers on modules preventing us from using them.Everything in this game is fluid and doesn't need to be held back by a clock telling me when it is alright to use it again.
I like the idea of causing the cell to generate heat. It like your systems are forcing a large amount of energy into your shields to instantly recharge them. So in a sense it could also empty out your system capacitor as well as overall heating up your ship. This way you have to pay more attention to your capacitor. Since if you were getting pounded on by multiple ships you really may not have a chance to put power into weapons or engines since you need everything to keep your shields up.
Also he said the Python is going to become less maneuverable. Meaning its slower and turns longer making it easier to hit. Also like another mentioned... Using the shield cell could cause your FSD to become unusable since the power draw to keep using shield cells takes from the FSD.
And then there like he said a penalty if you accidentally over charge your shield causing excess heat. Or perhaps you can move the shield cell to a utility mount since its more of a defensive module. What about that idea? that way you have to choose between shield cells, chaff, heat sinks or point defense. I feel this could really balance it since if you fit shield cells you lose some other form of defense.
Shields in this game a stupidly weak and fold very quickly when under sustained fire. I mean if a Cobra with two class 2 beams can melt a shield of a Python (as clearly shown in that video) then clearly there is a need for shield cells. Also hull strength is pointless since targeting a sub system often blows a ship up way before the percentage drops below 50%.
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python is significantly more expensive. its supposed to appear OP in this situation.
This idea of them being a temporary boost to shield durability without actually recharging the shield is fast becoming my favourite I have to say.
It should be able to handle some fighters.
It shouldn't be invincible and literally in no danger of 6 different ships repeatedly hammering it from all angles. I was really hoping that Elite wouldn't turn into a typical MMO whereby ships = levels, and where a level 5 ship attacking a level 90 ships does 0 damage. The game was supposed to be about skill, not a numbers game.
Change shield cells to utility hard points and you will balance them out. A ship with 4 or more will have 0 defenses vs gimballed, turreted and missile type weapons.
the python takes representative damage like everything else, if you 4 pips shield and use cells nothings likely to get through but its slow and the weapons won't charge fast enough.
I've not watched the vid but I've seen plenty of streamers in asps tanking 4 or 5 police ships, most of the time its just bad weapons + bad aim vs 4 pips shield + cells lol, I think you could do it in a viper or a cobra as well.
I've not watched the vid but I've seen plenty of streamers in asps tanking 4 or 5 police ships, most of the time its just bad weapons + bad aim vs 4 pips shield + cells lol, I think you could do it in a viper or a cobra as well.
It's not, at least not automatically.
darshu
Banned
Then what exactly should a player get in return for 230mil+ on a fitted Python exactly ? maybe they should just remove every combat ship but the viper ? I have no idea why you would think spending 200mil + would not allow yo uto have a significant advantage in combat why else would you spend that much on one ship ?
Edit: also they could of killed the python but they were not coordinating their attacks.
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Your plan only works if you can get past their 10+ shield recharges, FINALLY bring their shields down, and then hope to kill the module before they go back up again or be cursed with repeating the process.
My thoughts:
1. I appreciate the subtle-adjustment approach rather than applying the nerfhammer. The proposed changes sound good to me: make it more expensive to run them (and especially to run *multiple banks* of them) so that there's actually a tradeoff. Want lots of shield cells? Alright, but it's gonna cost you a bunch of energy. Want to spam them in quick succession? OK, but your heat's going to skyrocket...
2. I have never, not once, seen an NPC use a shield cell.
1. I appreciate the subtle-adjustment approach rather than applying the nerfhammer. The proposed changes sound good to me: make it more expensive to run them (and especially to run *multiple banks* of them) so that there's actually a tradeoff. Want lots of shield cells? Alright, but it's gonna cost you a bunch of energy. Want to spam them in quick succession? OK, but your heat's going to skyrocket...
2. I have never, not once, seen an NPC use a shield cell.
Irrespective of cost, no player ship should be able to withstand 5 minutes of all out attack from 4 or 5 other fighter ships, since were realistically unlikely to see any larger groupings than that it makes it effectively invulnerable in normal play except to more ships of the same size, and I dont think as a matter principal that any player ship in ED should be effectively invulnerable to a group of fighters. If we dont address this then ED essentially becomes a tiered experience where only ships of the same class can fight each other.
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Yes, not automatically. You have to fit shield cells on it and then use them for it to reach that level of absurdity. Apart from that, I have no problems with the advantages that a python has.
The strongest shields in the game, maneuverability almost on par with a cobra, 3 large hardpoints, a massive amount of hull durability, and enough internal modules and utility slots to make it great as both a combat ship and a trader? Is that not enough? It has a large advantage over vipers, cobras, etc in practically every way already, yet, it's still somewhat vulnerable if it gets outplayed. Sounds good to me.
The ships are already somewhat well balanced for their cost. Shield cells, however, destroy that balance.
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I think to be fair shield cells destroy the balance of every ship, go take a viper out with an A shield and just fly around taking shots with 4 pips you'll be amazed at how long it takes you to go down.