Modes The Solo vs Open vs Groups Thread [See new thread]

[Commander Silex]

One playstyle already has a clear advantage over the other. And FD is pushing it even more.

'Clear' is a very stong way of putting it. A slight advantage, certainly and one this is set to change as the devs have clearly stated they intend to improve the viability of the other roles as a career path. Now before I say this next bit, I want you to understand I support PvP in E and certainly don't wish to see it shoved off to a corner to die. I play almost exclusively in Open and have only so far gone into Group or Solo when connection issues or friend preferences have required it. You can even check my post history if you like.

You have an expectation of PvP in Elite Dangerous that is unrealistic given the context of every single developer post that has been made during the previous and current development of the game. They have no intention of separating modes. End of story. You are going to be disappointed if that's what you want. This isn't a bleeding edge competitive game. It's a multiplayer sandbox with varying levels of potential PvP involvement with a freeflowing movement between these modes. Asking them to change it would be like asking Weetabix to start making their cereal with corn.

I honestly think you're going to be surprised to find how many players just don't care that people can move between modes. I think you're also going to find your prophecies of death to the game if this does not go your way are about as realistic as those claimed by those on the 'PvP I didn't sign a form agreeing to is bad' crew on the other side of this. You're both blowing it out of proportion and demanding things you're almost unfeasibly likely to get.

 

[LordBad]

Who defined 'interaction' as simply PvP? There are many more interactions other than shooting at each other. I choose to play in open so that I can co-operate with others. Is this the sort of interaction you want us to avoid? If you mean Pvp, please say PvP and don't try to make the term interaction into something so one dimensional.

I wasn't suggesting it was one dimensional, I was simply saying that pirates/criminals are part of the interaction of open play and you don't get to pick what kind of interaction your going to have in open play. That MUST always remain the core of Open Play.

 

[Cpt.Badger]

Ok, two answers to that. the first one is the part you DIDN'T answer... How do you know the player didn't make all his money in Open? Very easy to do, just go somewhere quiet. And the second part goes all the way back to what was being discussed earlier. You play PvP by choice. By making that choice you have to accept the limitations that come with it.

First, there's no way for me to know that. Second of all it does not matter. All it matters is that there is an easy, unfair way to gain advantage in this game by playing solo mode only. I did not answer the question before because I find it completely irrelevant to the subject matter.

I could use a counter argument: why can't people that don't want to interact with other players accept the limitation of separate offline / online save ? A guy in this thread argued that "he has little time to play the game". As such he isn't willing to accept the limitation of his own RL and wants to switch on demand "because it suits him this way".

Works both ways.

Unfortunately only one side is being favored by the devs.

 

[Joe Spivey]

Is it? So explain this. Enjoy.

Not sure why you posted this long speil on traders in combat but anyway our long quote does nothing to give lie to my stating that PvP is discouraged in ED. I think you should know this quote from DB by now

"Most of the ships you encounter will be AIs - and in many cases you will kill them - which is why we want the majority to be AIs. Generally speaking we expect players, even beginners, to be more of a challenge than an AI ship, and something that players will tend not to attack, but more cooperate with, and we are designing the bounty system (and others) to discourage PvP and encourage player cooperation."

Your long quote does nothing to give lie to my stating that PvP is discouraged in ED.

 

[Asp Explorer]

Well no wonder it doesn't make sense to you if you expect people to find Player Versus Player activities in a SINGLE PLAYER mode.

The cute thing is - people can make you play single player in Open in their instances. They can leave your instance any time they want, and you have absolutely no say in the matter at all. None.

Don't like that? Well you'd better get coding and invent a new datagram protocol. It can't be that hard, surely?

 

[Joe Spivey]

... That MUST always remain the core of Open Play.

Can you give your reasoning why you think this has to be so?

 

[Commander Edison]

You truly don't get it. It's not about hating on traders and its not about auditing the rich people and checking if they've made their credits in open. Its a meta-idea that a roaming buccaneer should STATISTICALLY see more traders and miners around. Currently they reside in solo and mobius group and such. Its really not that hard to comprehend this.

I think you're confusing a massive gameworld where player density is never going to be high enough to support a mainly PVP playstyle with "Everyone is hiding in solo!"

 

[Cpt.Badger]

Are you scared of a bunch of carebears in Pythons who overheat when they deploy hardpoints?

Scared ?

Dude, don't you get it ? I WANT ALL TRADERS IN MY OPEN GAME.

All of them. The more the better!

It all comes down to this. I want EVERYBODY in OPEN play.

And you can not in your right mind argue it will somehow make the game less successful in the long run.

 

[Gunslinger]

My only concern (though I'd not even say it's big enough to warrant the word concern at this point) is that for some playstyles or mindsets, there's no incentive at all to join the open play, which then sucks for those in open play because there's fewer people there to interact with.

With that said, solo has its purpose - not everyone wants to play with others, hell while learning the ropes I've stuck to solo for that reason too. I just think it'd be nice if there was something that said to the non pvp-focused players "hey, we know you're not that interested in PVP, but you might consider joining open anyway because $reason"

 

[CMDR Sheehy]

I wasn't suggesting it was one dimensional, I was simply saying that pirates/criminals are part of the interaction of open play and you don't get to pick one kind of interaction your going to have in open play. That MUST always remain the core of Open Play.

No-one is denying your choice of how you play. However, even the post Mahlin refers to acknowledges that there is far too heavy a loss on the Trader's side in this and that they are going to look in to this. Cargo insurance may be part of the answer to this.

Despite all the challenges facing traders, there is very little challenge to PKers, regardless of their motivation. If you want to go on a killing spree now, easy. Just gank on anything with less ability than yourself. Do it until you've had your fill of fines and then pay off the fine and go back to trading. Of all the previous talk about risk/reward - this is the lowest of the low in those terms. Little risk, and no reward, except lulz.

It adds nothing to the game and does not encourage Open play.

 

[Commander Silex]

Your long quote does nothing to give lie to my stating that PvP is discouraged in ED.

There's absolutely reams of posts by the Lead designer clarifying what level of discouragement they're going for. So long as people aren't reading 'discourage' as 'punitively punish until it becomes an insignificant concern beyond abberant player behaviour' then they should get along in Open fine.

 

[tagos]

Is it? So explain this. Enjoy.

I expect he'll come back with the quotes you've missed out. The ones about introducing real and harsh consequences for player-killing to curb the behaviour of the consequence-free killing that deters people from playing in Open.

PvP has it's place. It's a small place and contingent on PvP players showing the kind of common sense decency and restraint that is needed for the god of the game as a whole.

And I've yet to see this in any game with PvP content. There will always, always, always be a significant minority who see it purely as a chance to be jerks.

So the only way to deal with it is to ensure the consequences are severe enough to ensure only those people who really want to embrace and play the role of pirate are rewarded for doing so.

And that means an equality of consequences not a balancing of ships. Of course a trader will usually lose. What makes things balanced is if the trader has a reasonable possibility of getting out with minimum losses (and not as at the moment - potentially catastrophic losses) and the pirate then faces serious in-game consequences (instead of no serious consequences).

As a trader I'm okay about pirates stopping me and asking for cargo so long as I have a fighting chance to get away. The trouble is, when i'm intericte the liklihood is I'm going to be straight out attacked and destroyed because for the attacker there isn't actually any real downside.

 

[Azulkb]

First, there's no way for me to know that. Second of all it does not matter. All it matters is that there is an easy, unfair way to gain advantage in this game by playing solo mode only. I did not answer the question before because I find it completely irrelevant to the subject matter.

I could use a counter argument: why can't people that don't want to interact with other players accept the limitation of separate offline / online save ? A guy in this thread argued that "he has little time to play the game". As such he isn't willing to accept the limitation of his own RL and wants to switch on demand "because it suits him this way".

Works both ways.

Unfortunately only one side is being favored by the devs.

pvp for me is boring. i accept some players love pvp. can you accept some of us hate pvp and like pve ? game in open offer and will offer some interactions with another goal and not only kill each other. so yes i farm credy for insurrance cost because if i play in future in open , many pk want destroy my ship. but with credit i can buy insurance and enjoy pve aspect, or other interactions. but i am not competitive, and i am not a pvpers. for me its "BORING".

 

[Joe Spivey]

You truly don't get it. It's not about hating on traders and its not about auditing the rich people and checking if they've made their credits in open. Its a meta-idea that a roaming buccaneer should STATISTICALLY see more traders and miners around. Currently they reside in solo and mobius group and such. Its really not that hard to comprehend this.

There are many many traders and miners around. The fact that more of them are not players seems to be the bone of contention. But then, ED is not a PvP centred game and those players in solo and group choose to play that way for a variety of reasons. Yes SOME of them may be trading their way up to a big ship in solo. So what? The same player can do so in open and in all the time he is doing so will likely never meet another player. The point is, once he has his mega ship, how is anyone going to know HOW he got it? It doesn't matter how he got it because EVERYONE can do exactly the same thing. To use your words it is a meta-game the whole family can play. The fact that you may choose not to doesn not mean you have any say in how others play the game. This is the concept the game was designed around. You have to come to terms with that.

 

[CMDR Sheehy]

Scared ?

Dude, don't you get it ? I WANT ALL TRADERS IN MY OPEN GAME.

All of them. The more the better!

It all comes down to this. I want EVERYBODY in OPEN play.

And you can not in your right mind argue it will somehow make the game less successful in the long run.

What you want is down to you. You cannot force your wants on everyone else (thankfully.)

And yes we can argue that it will make the game less successful in the long run seeing the long history of PvE in the Elite series.

 

[Flyinpiranha]

First, there's no way for me to know that. Second of all it does not matter. All it matters is that there is an easy, unfair way to gain advantage in this game by playing solo mode only. I did not answer the question before because I find it completely irrelevant to the subject matter.

I could use a counter argument: why can't people that don't want to interact with other players accept the limitation of separate offline / online save ? A guy in this thread argued that "he has little time to play the game". As such he isn't willing to accept the limitation of his own RL and wants to switch on demand "because it suits him this way".

Works both ways.

Unfortunately only one side is being favored by the devs.

That first question is 100% relevant. You're basically saying that you have no idea how a person got to where they are, but if they did it a certain way it isn't "fair". But you have absolutely no way of knowing either way.

And I'm glad the developers favor it this way, you go on this rant about "it's so unfair" but you can't even point to a player and tell me if they did it one way or the other. You're just mad because "they can do it that way".

To answer your second question. I don't give a crap about PVP, but I may want to try it in a while. I play every now and then in Open if I am not distracted. This isn't some eSport game of "Elite" competition. It's a space sim where we fly little ships and shoot lasers at each other. Why are you making this such a huge competition when THE GAME ALLOWS YOU TO DO THE SAME. Because you CHOOSE to "only PVP" isn't the games problem, isn't my problem, it's YOUR problem because you couldn't even tell if the person made their money in Open or Solo. It's hilarious.

"I HATE THAT GUY!"
"Why?"
"Cuz he play diff'rent"

Scared ?

Dude, don't you get it ? I WANT ALL TRADERS IN MY OPEN GAME.

All of them. The more the better!

It all comes down to this. I want EVERYBODY in OPEN play.

And you can not in your right mind argue it will somehow make the game less successful in the long run.

Oh, that challenge of taking out a Type 6 or Type 7 ... much challenge.

And how do you know it will make the game better in the long run? Do you have statistics on who is playing Open?

That's one thing that could easily settle this argument and what people want to see the game 'made into'. If FD would tell us "This % plays Solo mostly, this % plays Private Groups, and this % plays Open". It would let me know what their direction is because they will obviously follow the player base.

The funny thing is, is that I don't see a 3000+ member PVP group started. If there are so many like minded individuals, why not play with a bunch of people that also want this same style? You basically want to force people that can't/won't/don't enjoy PVP into an Open field where YOU have obviously the tactical advantage ... and even if the majority did play in Open, you'd still be mad "cuz they earned their money in Solo".

 

[ianw]

Scared ?

Dude, don't you get it ? I WANT ALL TRADERS IN MY OPEN GAME.

All of them. The more the better!

It all comes down to this. I want EVERYBODY in OPEN play.

And you can not in your right mind argue it will somehow make the game less successful in the long run.

Are you trying to argue that if people were forced to choose between open and solo all those that don't like PVP would choose open rather than solo?

 

[tagos]

Scared ?

Dude, don't you get it ? I WANT ALL TRADERS IN MY OPEN GAME.

All of them. The more the better!

It all comes down to this. I want EVERYBODY in OPEN play.

And you can not in your right mind argue it will somehow make the game less successful in the long run.

Then you need to join us in arguing for draconian deterrents for player killing, lower consequences for traders and a proper chance for dedicated pirates to really be treated as the outlaws they are.

Pirating should be a serious career choice with consequences that are fun to play and hard to shake off, not a temporary mood choice with consequences that can be laughed off.

 

[Cpt.Badger]

As a trader I'm okay about pirates stopping me and asking for cargo so long as I have a fighting chance to get away. The trouble is, when i'm intericte the liklihood is I'm going to be straight out attacked and destroyed because for the attacker there isn't actually any real downside.

Fighting chance to get away in a hauler ? Why stop at it ? You should also get some auto IDDQD and IDKFA as soon as your hauler is being fired upon!

 

[DaveB]

Not sure why you posted this long speil on traders in combat but anyway our long quote does nothing to give lie to my stating that PvP is discouraged in ED. I think you should know this quote from DB by now

"Most of the ships you encounter will be AIs - and in many cases you will kill them - which is why we want the majority to be AIs. Generally speaking we expect players, even beginners, to be more of a challenge than an AI ship, and something that players will tend not to attack, but more cooperate with, and we are designing the bounty system (and others) to discourage PvP and encourage player cooperation."

Your long quote does nothing to give lie to my stating that PvP is discouraged in ED.

Every time I've posted that quote or seen it posted, none of the "make the PvP better!" crowd answer it. They simply don't seem to be able to get their heads around the fact that a multiplayer open universe game could EVER be anything but PvP-focused, so they carry on (as we see here) as if DB had never made that statement and that somehow ED "has to be" more PvP-focused.

Personally I love PvP-focused games but I knew that I wasn't buying one when I bought into ED and I don't want to see anyone try to turn it into one - it is so fundamentally designed to discourage a primary PvP-focus that to attempt to make it PvP-focused would have mediocre results at best, as well as spoiling a great deal of the game for the non-PvP crowd - so both camps end up disappointed.