Imperial Slavery is still Slavery!

[Pomerlaw]

Empire be damned!

My upgraded Viper is coming for you princesses.

 

[Zhang]

What do they call Federal slaves?

Interns.

 

[Evil]

The alliance will allow you to free them back into the wild, we need these trapped controlled people to be free and add to our ranks !

 

[CR33P]

This is exactly the attitude I would expect to see from a culture with no sense of honour. You take our way of life and transpose your value system onto it. Just because this is how your capitalist driven mentality would handle those placed into your care does not mean that is how it is handled in the Empire.

The principle of honour is a two way street, the Imperial slave is in the position they are in because by making this choice they are clearing their debts. They are not forced to return to society with no means of supporting themselves. Once they have cleared their debt they could remain in servitude until they have sufficient means to be self supporting. They can also broaden their skill sets whilst in servitude, giving them a better position from which to continue their lives.

It is a question of honour for their master to ensure good working and social conditions for them, we don't value their existence based on how it balances the books, but on how it balances our souls. To mistreat a slave is to dishonour yourself, reputation is worth more than coin.

EDIT - This does need to be moved to the Roleplaying section though.

So it's like being an intern?

 

[Morbad]

Imperial Slavery has a huge body of law designed to protect the rights of slaves from being abused by their owners as well as outlining the duties owed by the slave to their owner.

Without enforcement laws are nothing but hypocrisy.

Last time I bought a canister of Imperial Slaves, the merchant glanced at the "intended use" section of the transfer forms, for which I wrote "dog food", shrugged her shoulders, and took my credits.

 

[Kadius]

Point me to official lore that states this is the case.

Point me to the lore that states anything of substance (besides the basics), we're all pretty much making this stuff up as we picture it to be.

 

[fw190a8]

Just wanted to say great thread, really enjoyed reading through this. Some really interesting points raised on both sides, and it's good we have a fictional place to discuss these issues without needing to worry about offending too many people or dragging up history!

I wanted to point out we covered two sides of the story in a couple of video interviews, which some might find interesting. The first - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goF-9ZmeOkk - is from an ex-slaver who is now advocating an anti-slavery stance, and the second - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xt9RB4jQSrQ - is from an Imperial slaver who had an interesting counter perspective. In both videos the interview is near the end after the main news items in case you would prefer to skip right to it.

 

[Suprez]

I am curious about something. How does per tons slave work ? 1 tons of slaves mean what ? 12-13 slave ?

So if you have 200 tons cargo bays. 2500 slaves ? So there's 2500 humans in my cargo bay ? I hope it's comfortable.

and when you eject them in space. How do they survive ?

 

[BigBadB]

Point me to the lore that states anything of substance (besides the basics), we're all pretty much making this stuff up as we picture it to be.

The lore (and the way things are set up in game) makes it clear that the Empire's economy is based on slavery. As I've said before, dress it up however you like, slavery is still slavery.

 

[Ttaskmaster]

The difference is that poor Federation citizens are still citizens, with the same legal rights and protections as any other citizen.

As are Imperial Slaves, right up to the point where they themselves waive those legal rights *of their own volition* and sign on.
They have all the protection they could want but if they sign it away, for a fixed period or otherwise, then they get what they asked for and who are you to question their choices?

By contrast, FedCits may well have all these legal rights and whatever... but just YOU try and enforce them!!
You could be the best lawyer in the galaxy, hellbent on obtaining what your client is entitled to - But all it would take to get your client locked up and you in the cell next to them is the right money in the right hands.

Legal rights in the Federation... HAH!! That's like thinking your 'Human Rights' entitling you to "life, liberty and security of person" will stop you from dying when a star goes supernova and blows the system you're in to pieces!!

Imperial slaves are property, not recognised as citizens, and do not have the same legal rights and protections as Imperial citizens.

They are contracted workers and must fulfil the conditions of that contract, just as the person or persons to whom they are indentured must fulfil theirs.
ImpSlaves can marry, own property, receive wages, vote, bear witness, serve on a jury and have many other entitlements... they can even bring legal action against those to whom they are indentured, particularly for violating the contitions of their indenture.

If there is a legal right, beyond the basic fundamentals of the indenture, that they don't have and/or are whining about it then they simply didn't read what they signed. No different to any contract in a Federal System.

If you really think those are the same thing, I would seriously suggest a little light reading about the history of slavery in the real world.

This *is* the real world, bub... Your problem is that you're still living in the 21st Century - Get with the times, ya hoopless frood!!

Point me to official lore that states this is the case.

Lore? Of what, exactly?
What does anything historic have to do with the way things are today, eh?

You wanna try the Law instead, matey... which just happens to say that Imperial Slaves are perfectly legal and absolutely dandy over in the Empire.
Don't like it, don't go there. Simple as!

 

[BigBadB]

I am curious about something. How does per tons slave work ? 1 tons of slaves mean what ? 12-13 slave ?

So if you have 200 tons cargo bays. 2500 slaves ? So there's 2500 humans in my cargo bay ? I hope it's comfortable.

and when you eject them in space. How do they survive ?

Slaves are transported in 'stasis tubes' (suspended animation). It seems fair to assume that the tubes (or the cannisters the tubes are in) have some form of backup power supply that can keep the occupants alive for a short time.

 

[Kadius]

The lore (and the way things are set up in game) makes it clear that the Empire's economy is based on slavery. As I've said before, dress it up however you like, slavery is still slavery.

I'm pretty sure we call it Imperial Slavery.

We Imperials know what we're in for should we decide to take this route, the main difference being that it's regulated none are taken against their will. This is a last resort and our answer to debt, homelessness and starvation, last I checked the Federation provides no solution for its starving children and homeless citizens.

 

[BigBadB]

As are Imperial Slaves, right up to the point where they themselves waive those legal rights *of their own volition* and sign on.
They have all the protection they could want but if they sign it away, for a fixed period or otherwise, then they get what they asked for and who are you to question their choices?

Lies. There is simply no way that all Imperial slaves are 'volunteers'. You'd never get enough slaves to make a significant economic impact on an interstellar civilisation that way.

By contrast, FedCits may well have all these legal rights and whatever... but just YOU try and enforce them!!
You could be the best lawyer in the galaxy, hellbent on obtaining what your client is entitled to - But all it would take to get your client locked up and you in the cell next to them is the right money in the right hands.

Legal rights in the Federation... HAH!! That's like thinking your 'Human Rights' entitling you to "life, liberty and security of person" will stop you from dying when a star goes supernova and blows the system you're in to pieces!!

I'm no fan of the Federation, either, but at least their system is based on principles of democracy and freedom, however corrupt the current government may have become. The Empire is based on principles of despotism and slavery.

They are contracted workers and must fulfil the conditions of that contract, just as the person or persons to whom they are indentured must fulfil theirs.
ImpSlaves can marry, own property, receive wages, vote, bear witness, serve on a jury and have many other entitlements... they can even bring legal action against those to whom they are indentured, particularly for violating the contitions of their indenture.

If there is a legal right, beyond the basic fundamentals of the indenture, that they don't have and/or are whining about it then they simply didn't read what they signed. No different to any contract in a Federal System.

More lies. They're not called 'Imperial contracted workers', they're called 'Imperial Slaves'. You know why? Because they're slaves.

Slave
NOUN
1 a person who is the legal property of another and is forced to obey them

As to your other claims:

* Marriage may be allowed by the slave's owner. Guess what their children will be? Slaves. From birth
* Property can't own property
* Property can't vote. And even if it could, the Empire is a despotic autocracy, not a democracy. Hard to vote when there aren't any elections
* Slaves may be able to bear witness. In ancient Rome, the model that Marlin Duval based the Empire on, they could only bear witness when tortured. If they weren't tortured, their testimony wasn't admissible. Sound familiar?
* Hard to serve on a jury when the Empire doesn't have trial by jury
* Legal action against their owners? Don't make me laugh

 

[Kyryck]

Imperial slavers often say that Imperial slavery isn't actually slavery, it's paying off a debt. It's the lie they use to make money from other people's debt fueled misery.

Imperial slavery is slavery with a fake smiley face.
People who gets into debt trouble they can't pay back are told "hey become an Imperial slave and work off your debt", what they aren't told is that this is just the first turn around a bitter cycle of slavery and debt.

Imperial slaves aren't paid much at all. Often times, it's just a little food and an air mattress on the floor and that's it. If you had to buy a slave and then pay them, you would just hire someone normally and just pay them. That's why people buy Imperial slaves because they work for next to nothing.

Then at the end of a year or seven years (no one is a slave for a week), where you aren't paid much if anything, so you can't save anything, you're 'released', sure your debt is paid, but you have no job and often no home. You can't rent a place because you have no job, no credit, you can't get a job because your recent job history was being a slave
if you had a rielative or friend who could help you out or hire you, you probably wouldn't have been a slave to start with. So you either get extremely lucky (win the lottery?) , or you run up debt again paying for food,rent etc(if someone will loan you money) and SURPRISE!!! you have to be slave again to pay it off and the whole cycle starts all over again.

That's the ugly truth about Imperial slavery that slavers don't want to talk about. Once you become a debt slave, it's very hard to get out.
I hear that the loan sharks who loan money to newly 'released' slaves at exorbitant rates are often a front for slavers themselves and when the poor ex-slave can't meet the high payments, they offer slavery as a way out again. Slavers can sell the same person many times over.

Imperial Slavery is Slavery, except it's worse. It's slavery with a lie that it's not. Slavery, Imperial or otherwise is wrong and treats humans like commodities with no more rights than a ton of biowaste. It needs to stop.

First, they haven't gone into many Imperial Slavery details. So you don't know how things are handled once a term is finished. Where are you getting this whole bit about them only being given a mattress? About them not being paid well? About the term of servitude? Links.

In point of fact, at numerous points in history, with cultures such as the Romans and certain Chinese dynasties, when a slave's period of service was over, they were set up by the person who had owned them. It was a way for a person to achieve a form of citizenship in some cultures actually. So before you ride off on your high horse you might want to actually familiarize yourself with what 'slavery' actually was throughout history to different cultures. Stop assuming that American experiences are somehow representative of the rest of the world and the rest of history. They aren't.

Third, if you feel so strongly about video game slavery, then I assume you must be out there campaigning vigorously against the form of wage slavery they have in the world today. We'll just focus on that one type of servitude since you are likely a North American, at least judging by your syntax and the background assumptions you seem to be drawing on to try and make your point. There have literally been thousands (if not more) of books written on the current form of slavery in 'Western' society and how pernicious a system it is. It has precisely many of the details you describe as indicative of slavery in your view. So I can only assume that you're quite active in supporting living wages, so people can live off of what they make and not be the working poor. I further assume that you support meritocracy and proper distribution of wealth, especially on the news that within two years, the richest one percent of the people in the world will own more than the other ninety-nine percent combined. That is a mere sampling of the various things you must be ardently opposed to if you can take the time to protest video game slavery, of which they have released only the bare bones details about. You literally know nothing of the system of Imperial Slavery in this game beyond what, at most, must account to a couple of paragraphs that Frontier has directly released along with what you could possibly intuit indirectly from Galnet and other such sources.

In short, find something better to whine about. Educate yourself before flying off half-cocked about things that you know quite literally almost nothing about.

 

[Zvanya]

So what are you namby pambys that say Imperial slavery is so horrible and needs to stop going to do about it? I doubt that scolding the Empire will free many slaves.

So are you going to take action to stop it? Or whine in a forum about it?

First, they haven't gone into many Imperial Slavery details. So you don't know how things are handled once a term is finished. Where are you getting this whole bit about them only being given a mattress? About them not being paid well? About the term of servitude? Links.

In point of fact, at numerous points in history, with cultures such as the Romans and certain Chinese dynasties, when a slave's period of service was over, they were set up by the person who had owned them. It was a way for a person to achieve a form of citizenship in some cultures actually. So before you ride off on your high horse you might want to actually familiarize yourself with what 'slavery' actually was throughout history to different cultures. Stop assuming that American experiences are somehow representative of the rest of the world and the rest of history. They aren't.

Third, if you feel so strongly about video game slavery, then I assume you must be out there campaigning vigorously against the form of wage slavery they have in the world today. We'll just focus on that one type of servitude since you are likely a North American, at least judging by your syntax and the background assumptions you seem to be drawing on to try and make your point. There have literally been thousands (if not more) of books written on the current form of slavery in 'Western' society and how pernicious a system it is. It has precisely many of the details you describe as indicative of slavery in your view. So I can only assume that you're quite active in supporting living wages, so people can live off of what they make and not be the working poor. I further assume that you support meritocracy and proper distribution of wealth, especially on the news that within two years, the richest one percent of the people in the world will own more than the other ninety-nine percent combined. That is a mere sampling of the various things you must be ardently opposed to if you can take the time to protest video game slavery, of which they have released only the bare bones details about. You literally know nothing of the system of Imperial Slavery in this game beyond what, at most, must account to a couple of paragraphs that Frontier has directly released along with what you could possibly intuit indirectly from Galnet and other such sources.

In short, find something better to whine about. Educate yourself before flying off half-cocked about things that you know quite literally almost nothing about.

Have rep.

 

[Anthony Jones]

Imperial slavers often say that Imperial slavery isn't actually slavery, it's paying off a debt. It's the lie they use to make money from other people's debt fueled misery.

Imperial slavery is slavery with a fake smiley face.
People who gets into debt trouble they can't pay back are told "hey become an Imperial slave and work off your debt", what they aren't told is that this is just the first turn around a bitter cycle of slavery and debt.

Imperial slaves aren't paid much at all. Often times, it's just a little food and an air mattress on the floor and that's it. If you had to buy a slave and then pay them, you would just hire someone normally and just pay them. That's why people buy Imperial slaves because they work for next to nothing.

Then at the end of a year or seven years (no one is a slave for a week), where you aren't paid much if anything, so you can't save anything, you're 'released', sure your debt is paid, but you have no job and often no home. You can't rent a place because you have no job, no credit, you can't get a job because your recent job history was being a slave
if you had a rielative or friend who could help you out or hire you, you probably wouldn't have been a slave to start with. So you either get extremely lucky (win the lottery?) , or you run up debt again paying for food,rent etc(if someone will loan you money) and SURPRISE!!! you have to be slave again to pay it off and the whole cycle starts all over again.

That's the ugly truth about Imperial slavery that slavers don't want to talk about. Once you become a debt slave, it's very hard to get out.
I hear that the loan sharks who loan money to newly 'released' slaves at exorbitant rates are often a front for slavers themselves and when the poor ex-slave can't meet the high payments, they offer slavery as a way out again. Slavers can sell the same person many times over.

Imperial Slavery is Slavery, except it's worse. It's slavery with a lie that it's not. Slavery, Imperial or otherwise is wrong and treats humans like commodities with no more rights than a ton of biowaste. It needs to stop.

i hear you.

more rights are needed for biowaste!

 

[Kadius]

Lies. There is simply no way that all Imperial slaves are 'volunteers'. You'd never get enough slaves to make a significant economic impact on an interstellar civilisation that way.

I've seen a lot of worlds with 6 billion+ populations, assume only 5% of that per world, volunteer and you've got an immense workforce.

I'm no fan of the Federation, either, but at least their system is based on principles of democracy and freedom, however corrupt the current government may have become. The Empire is based on principles of despotism and slavery.

...and I'm sure the starving and homeless people appreciate the harbored principles and freedom to die hungry and cold.

Slave
NOUN
1 a person who is the legal property of another and is forced to obey them

As to your other claims:

* Marriage may be allowed by the slave's owner. Guess what their children will be? Slaves. From birth
* Property can't own property
* Property can't vote. And even if it could, the Empire is a despotic autocracy, not a democracy. Hard to vote when there aren't any elections
* Slaves may be able to bear witness. In ancient Rome, the model that Marlin Duval based the Empire on, they could only bear witness when tortured. If they weren't tortured, their testimony wasn't admissible. Sound familiar?
* Hard to serve on a jury when the Empire doesn't have trial by jury
* Legal action against their owners? Don't make me laugh

This may be true for slaves, which are illegal and not tolerated within the Empire, Imperial Slavery however removes the filth, then refines and improves the process to provide for those with no other path to take.

 

[Marikc0]

Imperial slavers often say that Imperial slavery isn't actually slavery, it's paying off a debt. It's the lie they use to make money from other people's debt fueled misery.

Imperial slavery is slavery with a fake smiley face.
People who gets into debt trouble they can't pay back are told "hey become an Imperial slave and work off your debt", what they aren't told is that this is just the first turn around a bitter cycle of slavery and debt.

Imperial slaves aren't paid much at all. Often times, it's just a little food and an air mattress on the floor and that's it. If you had to buy a slave and then pay them, you would just hire someone normally and just pay them. That's why people buy Imperial slaves because they work for next to nothing.

Then at the end of a year or seven years (no one is a slave for a week), where you aren't paid much if anything, so you can't save anything, you're 'released', sure your debt is paid, but you have no job and often no home. You can't rent a place because you have no job, no credit, you can't get a job because your recent job history was being a slave
if you had a rielative or friend who could help you out or hire you, you probably wouldn't have been a slave to start with. So you either get extremely lucky (win the lottery?) , or you run up debt again paying for food,rent etc(if someone will loan you money) and SURPRISE!!! you have to be slave again to pay it off and the whole cycle starts all over again.

That's the ugly truth about Imperial slavery that slavers don't want to talk about. Once you become a debt slave, it's very hard to get out.
I hear that the loan sharks who loan money to newly 'released' slaves at exorbitant rates are often a front for slavers themselves and when the poor ex-slave can't meet the high payments, they offer slavery as a way out again. Slavers can sell the same person many times over.

Imperial Slavery is Slavery, except it's worse. It's slavery with a lie that it's not. Slavery, Imperial or otherwise is wrong and treats humans like commodities with no more rights than a ton of biowaste. It needs to stop.

Would you shut up, it's a game.

 

[daan2002]

OP is a prime example of taking things way too seriously...... this just in ITS A GAME!!!

 

[Kadius]

OP is a prime example of taking things way too seriously...... this just in ITS A GAME!!!

The OP was RPing, he didn't realize there was a specific forum for it at the time.