PvP vs Piracy...they are not the same.

Good post.
have some rep.
the only thing I will say that's not strictly true, modern pirates do at times attack naval ships, either through mistaken identity or through brazen disregard for giving a s***.
its rare though.

back to the game.
whilst I don't like pirates, I understsnd its a natural selection for some, I also won't say they are completely cowardly. If done right, it's like a game of poker, its all about bluffing. That by itself is a game of chance.
they could intersect a ship that is far more deadly than they expected, one who's captain likes to pull the trigger on pirates too.
it could even be a 'honey pot' trap for bounty hunters.
 
Last edited:
In my opinion, from ambush with overwhelming firepower is the only way to attack, a fair fight is one that should be avoided at all costs. Go ahead and analyse me, tell me how i have a massive inferiority complex, that i am immature and/or how I am less of a valid human being that you, because that's what all of these threads are, and its getting to the point where its hilariously short sighted and prejudiced.

You have a massive inferiority complex, you are immature and and a less valid human being.

Better?
 
I don't like playing pirate these days - Played it out back in my Freelancer days and got bored of it in the end. Hell, got bored of PVP itself back then!

Anyway.

I agree with the OP. Pirates, TRUE pirates, are more interested in the bottom line than actual combat. Yes, violence and brutality are essential spanners in the toolkit, but there are a lot more logistics involved than just blowing away newbs in sidewinders. Frame shift drive wakes are a cool idea, allowing you to pursue targets through hyperspace (I assume, that's how it worked in Frontier Elite), but it seems to me no-one uses them. Certainly I've not seen any complaints about them on the forums, so they can't be all that commonly used. There needs to be more scope for planning, tracking, true HUNTING, not just blind fishing.

When I try to imagine pirates as they COULD be in space games (Elite, EvE etc) and certainly how I tried to imagine myself when i was freelancing, was more akin to Black Sails (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ab8VqJ0eHBI) Blood and violence, YES, but weeks of chasing a particular prey. Meticulous planning and careful target selection, not blindly assaulting the first ship you see, only taking on uneven odds when you know you have a trick up your sleeve...

Pirates are cowards, as much as any trader. And here's the thing. Any trader would HAPPILY turn pirate if they thought they would get away with it. Any PIRATE would turn trader if it meant a safer cargo haul. They weren't in it for the glory, they were in it for the money.

I play solo exclusively. Don't feel I'm missing anything by avoiding open right now, it's too chaotic for a retired pirate. Too risky. Too expensive.

Offer me something akin Letters of Marque and Reprisal however, and the toolkit to make it exciting? Well. I might just be tempted to take up the black again.
 
Currently in another thread about people disconnecting, there is a debate about PvP and piracy. In the same thread the developers made suppositions that are not fully supported by human nature. They make sense...but they have logical fallacies in them. This post is meant to help with those fallacies.

As we all know, people in Elite can be broadly categorized. We have traders, miners, Bounty Hunters, Pirates, and so on. This post is mainly about pirates and their profession. Simply put, and not meant to be provocative, pirates are cowards. Why would I say that? Well it is simple, the developers suppose that a pirate is taking up piracy because they want to engage in PvP. That they desire to get in to fights. This is a logical fallacy.

Piracy as a profession is about one simple thing: Money. It is not at all about fighting, in fact a pirate, like a trader, wants to stay out of fights because those fights loose them money. If a ship explodes before it can drop loot means the pirate is out of money in the form of ammo, time spent, and potentially damage to their ship it's self.

Look at modern piracy, do you see pirates advertising their positions or attacking navy ships...heck no. The attack cargo ships or cruise liners. Their goal is to take the ship and ransom it. They take the ship, the companies pays the ransom, and the pirates hightail away before a navy destroyer can be on scene. The organizer of the pirates gets millions, the pirates get payed, and no one hopefully dies in the process.

The problem is that PvP is not being properly delineated. There are multiple types of PvP and they do not have the same interests. As discussed above, pirates are not at all interested in combat as it would take away from their profits. There are the people that want a fair fight, we see them posting. There are opportunists, they see a commander and well there is a fight to be had as long as it is close. Then there are those that just want the world to burn, see commander kill commander. Plus there may be more that I am not thinking about.

This should be taken into consideration when defining who wants what. But for pirates I would say they could use some more tools. Methods to temporarily disable a targets FSD (some kind of weapon or hack) while also making it easier for the pirate to ransom their victim (Would you want cargo...or a credit transfer?). Now I do not profess to be the devs or to have access to what they know. But I can get into the mindset of the profession.

So that is that, I hope there is a good discussion and may all professions be viable.

When it comes to PvP, I have exhausted all ends of the spectrum in terms of playing the "pirate" role. First, interdiction is bugged to the extreme and even when successfully interdicting a player out of space 50% of the time the target won't even appear in the same instance. The pirate ends up having to hyperdrive back out and hope the victim will be back on supercruise so he can try again, this after the pirate suffers hull damage to his ship. When the pirate does get a successful interdiction the opposing trader will simply log out or disconnect, leaving their ship to magically spin in circles and there is nothing I can do to damage it further. The very few times where I was able to interdict and scan a player they FSD out of the system before I can get a chance to work on them for cargo. My final analysis on this is that piracy is meant to be a PvE activity and not a PvP activity. So, as a PvP player I have taken to simply attacking all players and blowing up their ships no matter which ship they are flying. I don't care if you fly a sidewinder or an Asp, if I see you I will interdict you and my only goal is to blow your ship up. Cheers! Blame FD, don't blame the pirate!
 
Last edited:
Piracy is OK. But from my point of view attacking innocent player in a system with a govermnet - no matter if it is independent, Alliance, Empire or Federation should cancel his ensurance. His "profession" is out of law, if he's dead - ensurance company would not pay for his ship. Only the full price, dude. Only hardcore)
This period of cancelation should be about a week or two.
Be a pirate - no problem, but in anarchy regions, or risk your ship.
 
Piracy is OK. But from my point of view attacking innocent player in a system with a govermnet - no matter if it is independent, Alliance, Empire or Federation should cancel his ensurance. His "profession" is out of law, if he's dead - ensurance company would not pay for his ship. Only the full price, dude. Only hardcore)
This period of cancelation should be about a week or two.
Be a pirate - no problem, but in anarchy regions, or risk your ship.

I'm fine with that, so long as FD gives pirates a device that can scramble the opposing players FSD to keep them in system for longer than 15 seconds.
 
The problem is that PvP is not being properly delineated.
No, it isn't a problem.
Also, dropping 4t of 400t palladium total is hardly a loss for a trader. They are just too greedy or dumb. Take your pick.
Traders can defend themselves with torpedos. 4 torpedos is enough to kill any pirating cobra/viper (rarely you will ever meet anything else because it's not cost efficient).
 
Last edited:
I dont think anyone was asking for a literal translation... but thanks anyway.

Actually that's what we should stick to. Because if all involved actually were aware of the literal translation we would avoid a lot of pointless rehashing of the same debate every week.
 
PvP = Player vs Player
PvE = Player vs Environment


PvP allows players to perform action usually only against NPCs, but against players, be these fair or not.

On ED/EVE a player can attack another player for:
- loot
- no reason
- rp reasons
- *more_here*

Killing for loot = Piracy
Killing for no reason = Murder
Killing for RP reasons = RP


Is that hard to understand?


Edit: I knew today gamers had no idea the terms used in gaming, but... Do we really need this same discussion every week?


Killing for no reason = Griefing

What you guys don't understand is that the game mecanics include Pirates but not griefers. Pirates do not kill for no reason. A good pirate do not kill at all.

Guys making PvP, both consenting, ok. But if a guy kill another for no reason, not even a mission or so, it's a griefer.

http://elite-dangerous.wikia.com/wiki/Griefers

And those would get a heavy, non wipeable bounty, including in anarchy systems. I think, destroying their reputation in an non-anarchic system is also a solution. If guy want to have fun by shooting each other, they just have to put "report crimes against me" OFF

But how the game can make a difference between pirates and griefers ?
 
Last edited:
I dont think anyone was asking for a literal translation... but thanks anyway.

No, no one asked, doesn't change the fact that no one knows the terms either, and that this discussion comes up every week, one op with a little better understanding or total lack of it on the matter on each topic.

Sadly this is beating a dead horse, the community won't learn because they don't want to.

I know it sounds harsh, sorry that wasn't the idea.

And lol Lary, please, stop it, no one likes your poor jokes.
 
Last edited:
I'm fine with that, so long as FD gives pirates a device that can scramble the opposing players FSD to keep them in system for longer than 15 seconds.
Ok. And the same stuff for the police forces that should arrive at any interdiction signal in 2 minutes.
 
The maxim in EvE was "if you're in a fair fight you are going it wrong" To me true PvP'ers are the guys who want to compete with equally equipped and skilled players. E.g, tournament style or in conflict zones where everyone has brought their best combat ship and is prepared to fight and die. The rest (and unfortunately the majority) are just looking for easy kills to feed their ego. I'm happy to go head to head if my opponent wants to dance but I just wouldn't blow some guy up in a trader just to give my ego a boost. Thats just a bit pathetic

"If you're in a fair fight you are going it wrong" doesn't mean you can't be in the same ship with same modules than your target, it means that you don't attack from the front but the back, simply put, you try to control the fight as much as you can. That passive aggressive about "true / pathetic" pvp just means you got no idea why, and how people do it. I touched on the nature of pvp in this game, probably in the thread OP describes, and it really, really hasn't anything to do with honor and equality. It's hunt or be hunted, and both roles are fun. And that's how it's supposed to be. If you want your so called "true-pvp" go play BF. We're all doing business here (or should be, "psycho's" are different but then again, nothing we can do about that), and like traders buy low and sell high, pirates bite the small ones instead of the big ones.

But, I completely agree with OP with the fact that pirates don't have enough reasons to be cowards. Where traders need to calculate risk and reward, so should pirates. You don't see drug dealers running in city centrals beating up people and then ask if they want to buy their product, that's bad business because it draws heat. And it's not just the popo's who get mad at the punch swinging evildoer, their respective criminal organization get's mad too. And that's something that is missing from the game mechanics, and one of the three major problems in the trader-pirate-bountyhunter trinity.

Attacking traders drives trade out, tightens security measures and draws bounty hunters in a system, which is bad for criminal business. So each committed crime needs to make enough profit to compensate for that. Maintaining that chaotic balance is the lifeline of pirating. So a plain murder shouldn't be punished by the system government only, but the criminal organization too. Kill a trader and steal the cargo: cargo items get flagged as homicide evidence and should be worth a lot less. Kill a trader without cargo and hits the fan. Black markets block you unless you pay a compensation fine, become a mass murderer and the criminal organization dispatches assassins to get rid of you through bulletin board missions. Make bounties unremovable through paying fines, maybe add some kind of a fake ID system that helps you hide your wanted status. Buff clean pirating, nerf psychos.

The second major problem is the equipment. Playing RP-pirate or even using a cargo scanner is super cumbersome because you're giving your target too much leeway. The same goes with KWS. Which has lead to the situation: shoot first, ask later. This has to change, either enable cargo scanner and kws in supercruise or balance the speed of their use. System wide bounty lists for bounty hunters and bulletin board kill cmdr missions that has a system tracker and a hefty paycheck.

The third major problem is open vs. solo trading. There needs to be a carrot to do it in open. And I'm not talking about a simple station buy price buff, that's just clumsy and "unrealistic". A better way would be to make some kind of a meaningful interaction for traders against pirates in a case by case manner. Get pirated, get something. Bait missions with location trackers in cargo that light up the pirate for all using kws for example. Make stuff like that a part of a cargo insurance system. The problem with that is how to prevent exploitation of that system. But again, Frontier should have people to crack nuts like that.
 
Cash transfer is left out probably to prevent currency trading, farming, and account hacking.

This argument is ridiculous and FD will eventually have to bend over.

They are damaging the experience of all players in the game in the belief that introducing credit transfers amongst players (and thus the ability to have contracts) would introduce something that would impact a small minority of the community negatively.

We all get punished by the lack of a very much needed game mechanic because of the 'potential' for said mechanic to be abused by a few ?

Nonsense !
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
Piracy I could understand in ED if you could ransom the pilot. Most pirates are in small ships (vipers etc) and they have no cargo space anyway. The ability to ransom (transfer cash to the pirate or die) would make pirating legitimate and profitable. And dont tell me transferring cash is a big change. The 'luxuries wanted' guys can magic cash into your account and commodities out of your hold

Ransom would not make piracy any more legitimate than it is already. Thankfully there is no plan to allow escape pods to be scooped.

The ability to credit transfer in space would encourage extortion of far greater credit sums than the pirate could ever carry as cargo as the extortion would now have leverage over the insurance excess cost as well as the loss of cargo. A Type 9 with a 5M Cr. insurance excess and a 5M Cr. cargo value is looking at 10M Cr. loss on destruction - what would you expect the pirate to demand?
 
Last edited:
Killing for no reason = Griefing

Griefing happens in real life, it doesn't happen in video games where everything is made up of 1's and 0's. If you can't handle being destroyed in a video game then you got probs, serious. <REDACTED>
 
Last edited by a moderator:
No, no one asked, doesn't change the fact that no one knows the terms either

Some do ;)

--

Piracy has not been fully implemented and right now is a shadow of what was discussed by FD during the DDF.

Pressure them to implement piracy in it's full (rating & declaration of piracy) to stop a few who use it's name as an excuse for their actions.
 
Killing for no reason = Griefing

What you guys don't understand is that the game mecanics include Pirates but not griefers. Pirates do not kill for no reason. A good pirate do not kill at all.

Guys making PvP, both consenting, ok. But if a guy kill another for no reason, not even a mission or so, it's a griefer.

http://elite-dangerous.wikia.com/wiki/Griefers

And those would get a heavy, non wipeable bounty, including in anarchy systems. I think, destroying their reputation in an non-anarchic system is also a solution. If guy want to have fun by shooting each other, they just have to put "report crimes against me" OFF

Can't you actually read your own link ?

A player killing another player for no reason is NOT a griefer.

You link to a source that tells you that yet conclude the opposite !
 
This argument is ridiculous and FD will eventually have to bend over.

They are damaging the experience of all players in the game in the belief that introducing credit transfers amongst players (and thus the ability to have contracts) would introduce something that would impact a small minority of the community negatively.

We all get punished by the lack of a very much needed game mechanic because of the 'potential' for said mechanic to be abused by a few ?

Nonsense !

Absolutely. Although while unable to transfer credits we can't have and finance twinkie pirate/criminal accounts. Well, not easily. Where there's a will there's a way...
 
I'm fine with that, so long as FD gives pirates a device that can scramble the opposing players FSD to keep them in system for longer than 15 seconds.

A tool like this should have a huge downside. Personally I would have the device block the FSD of all parties even the one using it. It should also be power hungry as a downside as keeping some one in the instance should not be easy and should be risky.
 
Back
Top Bottom