PvP vs Piracy...they are not the same.

[Cmdr Effie Trinket]

And PvP oriented players wonder why people think PvP should be even more heavily constrained and discouraged and why the demands that the game be rebalanced around that small aspect of the game is met with indifference.

I feel your pain, but you don't redesign and 'rebalance' the entire game, because one guy is a pseudo bully. Your chances of actually ever seeing this guy, are so remote it's not funny.

Please stop assuming that everyone in your town is a burglar, just because your local petrol station got robbed five years ago.

 

[cyd]

There is certainly a certain amount of hatred for pirates in this game that goes beyond what is logical.

Make a thread where a pirate is trying to interdict a ship and he exits the game. Everyone will blame the pirate for interdicting the ship calling him every name under the sun.

Make a thread about a bounty hunter trying to interdict a wanted player who exits the game and OMG the world will explode with the fury of women scorn ready to get their pitchforks and torches to set the world on fire. All of them wearing "Je suis bounty hunter" T-shirts.

Hypocrisy is pretty thick around these parts.

 

[Cathalo]

Where, in any of Frontier's advertising for the game, does it say that any of the roles will be exclusively (or even mainly) carried out against other players?

Ahem, open mode? Risk vs Reward? Elite: "Dangerous"?

 

[Robert Maynard]

Ahem, open mode? Risk vs Reward? Elite: "Dangerous"?

I thought that you would have trouble finding anything in the advertising that would support your case.

Open mode: where all players of all playstyles play - not "reserved" for PvP, indeed PvP can also take place in Private Groups.

Risk vs Reward: not necessarily anything to do with PvP.

Elite: Dangerous: As has been said many times, the "Dangerous" in the game's name refers to the lowest reputation rank at which pilots are approached for associate membership of the Elite Federation of Pilots.

 

[SyberSmoke]

@ OP; declaring Pirates to be Cowards in your opening barrage, yes, barrage, is counter-productive. Especially coming as it does, from a person claiming to be bringing clarity and objectivity to the subject.

This thread is another example of, <deleted>


Oh well, never mind. Half the folk here are very different to the other half. That ain't gonna be changing anytime soon and I pity FD, having to deal with both. I trust them to make the game that THEY want and to largely ignore most, if not all of the rubbish spouted in here.

Cowardice is defined simply as a lack of bravery. A thief, something a pirate is in all honesty, is not brave. Much of the time pirates are that way through desperation or situation. Only in a game are pirates that way through nothing but choice to play that way. But that does not make them brave.

As was stated in another post, Pirates are really no different then traders. They are both seeking one simple thing, profit. This is just through different means. But thievery or piracy are not professions for the brave, they depend on financial incentive to be present. People trade for hours, days at a time because that time will net them profits. A pirate will track a target and attempt to take their goods for the same reason...profit.

Thus both professions show a measure of cowardice. The trader will seek routes of high profit with low chance of interdiction. While a pirate will choose the best ship they can to assure overwhelming superiority in an effort to persuade the target to drop their loot. It does not take bravery, just enough guns to make the other guy far less brave then would be needed to run.

 

[Cathalo]

Blame the sand.

So if your sandcastle falls down then go around kicking over everyone else castles too.

If we are talking about a sandbox, then we are talking about a system. The system as advertised said that piracy was a playable profession. I don't even care that it was advertised to me and not delivered. I care that If I choose to outfit my ship with heavy hitting weapons I can play the role of "murderer" and take out player ships before they even get a chance to escape. I choose to play a role that was not presented to me when I bought the game, because a role I intended to play was not supported.

 

[Tas Devil]

Ok I'll bite. If player contracts ala EVE is implemented and the inevitable flood of credit farmers, account hijackers, and money scammers come along, you want FD to maintain a staff out of the generosity of their hearts to keep that in check? You really expect the full services of an MMO for a one time payment?

Why must they be implemented 'a la EvE' ?

Where is your evidence that EvE suffered from a 'flood of credit farmers, account hijackers, and money scammers' ?

ALso there is a very clear and easy way to deal with all such things. Tackle the demand not the offer.

If FD make it abundantly clear that any credit purchase out of the game with real cash will lead to immediate account banning, they will destroy the business model of the credit farmers etc...

EvE cannot implement such a strategy because they are subscription based. But in a game where revenues come all upfront with a one off payment, and as long as their T&Cs are very clear about the risk of a ban for credit purchasing, what have they got to loose scaring the player base into avoiding credit purchase in the first place.

If there is no demand there won't be a market for credit purchases...

 

[Cathalo]

I thought that you would have trouble finding anything in the advertising that would support your case.

Open mode: where all players of all playstyles play - not "reserved" for PvP, indeed PvP can also take place in Private Groups.

Risk vs Reward: not necessarily anything to do with PvP.

Elite: Dangerous: As has been said many times, the "Dangerous" in the game's name refers to the lowest reputation rank at which pilots are approached for associate membership of the Elite Federation of Pilots.

Help me to understand why anyone would play open if they weren't expecting a chance to be attacked by other players? Wouldn't they choose Solo Mode or Group Play?

Maybe I'm missing something here.

 

[Mohrgan]

There is certainly a certain amount of hatred for pirates in this game that goes beyond what is logical.

Make a thread where a pirate is trying to interdict a ship and he exits the game. Everyone will blame the pirate for interdicting the ship calling him every name under the sun.

Make a thread about a bounty hunter trying to interdict a wanted player who exits the game and OMG the world will explode with the fury of women scorn ready to get their pitchforks and torches to set the world on fire. All of them wearing "Je suis bounty hunter" T-shirts.

Hypocrisy is pretty thick around these parts.

A total burst of hyperbole. I have been following all of those threads and than isn't how it's going at all.

 

[Tas Devil]

Elite: Dangerous: As has been said many times, the "Dangerous" in the game's name refers to the lowest reputation rank at which pilots are approached for associate membership of the Elite Federation of Pilots.

That is your interpretation. Please provide a quote from anyone associated with FD suggesting that's the case.

 

[Cathalo]

Blame the sand.

So if your sandcastle falls down then go around kicking over everyone else castles too.

If this game was advertised with PvE as emphasis and PvP was to be minimal to non existant only to find that you were lied to, then I'm quite sure you would be on the other side of the fence right now.

See? I was sold on this as being a hardcore PvP game, through false advertising.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Help me to understand why anyone would play open if they weren't expecting a chance to be attacked by other players? Wouldn't they choose Solo Mode or Group Play?

Maybe I'm missing something here.

That's changing your argument somewhat - of course there is the possibility that players will be attacked by other players in multi-player - there is nothing in the game to stop that.

Solo and private groups are in the game to satisfy the advertised "And the best part - you can do all this online with your friends, or other "Elite" pilots like yourself, or even alone. The choice is yours...".

What you were inferring was that the game should be designed such that one particular role (piracy in this instance), played in a particular way (i.e. targeting players only) should be profitable. Restricting your play-style to one role and a tiny subset of all ships is your choice.

 

[Matnik]

If I interdict, I'll always send a message telling the player to drop 5 units. Not a lot, but then I don't have much cargo space.

Almost every single time, players will just go full thrusters and try to escape, ignore comms (BECAUSE WE DON'T NEGOTIATE WITH TERRORISTS) and hit the FSD.

Clearly, that player doesn't want to drop their cargo. If piracy was just about avoiding combat, you'd let them go, but then where's the incentive to cooperate with pirates? "LOL no mate. Bye" would be your response, leaving the cocky pirate to sit in space and cry.

Pirates *must* attempt to destroy ships that don't drop cargo immediately for the profession to work at all.

 

[Mohrgan]

If we are talking about a sandbox, then we are talking about a system. The system as advertised said that piracy was a playable profession. I don't even care that it was advertised to me and not delivered. I care that If I choose to outfit my ship with heavy hitting weapons I can play the role of "murderer" and take out player ships before they even get a chance to escape. I choose to play a role that was not presented to me when I bought the game, because a role I intended to play was not supported.

The Dev's created Interdictors, limpets, cargo holds as targets, and cargo scanners. They gave the traders a way of dropping cargo, and a way for pirates to scoop it up. Just, what more do you expect an unforgiving galaxy to supply? That 'I-Win' button I always hear about. You are a failed pirate, and tjat makes you sad. But, luckily you have an entire galaxy to take it out on. Bravo to FD for hooking you up.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

If this game was advertised with PvE as emphasis and PvP was to be minimal to non existant only to find that you were lied to, then I'm quite sure you would be on the other side of the fence right now.

See? I was sold on this as being a hardcore PvP game, through false advertising.

Please present this advertising. I saw nothing of the kind when I was doing my do diligence while deciding to make the purchase.

 

[Robert Maynard]

That is your interpretation. Please provide a quote from anyone associated with FD suggesting that's the case.

Covered here:

Becoming Elite - Ratings
•The “Elite” rating is a combat rating based on the number of successful pirate kills by a pilot. To get this rating requires a great deal of dedication. Additional routes to an “Elite” rating and that coveted membership were introduced in 3290.
•Three new possible “Elite” rankings, in addition to the combat effectiveness rating (still based on number of kills using a player rating and ship formula) now cover new key areas:
•Wealth: profit over accumulated net worth (though both values are taken into account)
•Influence: based on contacts and successful negotiations or diplomacy.
•Knowledge: acquisition of data, particularly through exploration.

•Getting the Elite rating (in any of the four rankings) automatically gets you into the exclusive “Elite Federation of Pilots” – and being a member of the Elite federation confers many privileges. It is also possible for pilots without the “Elite” rating to gain admission to the EFP, but access to the organisation is extremely difficult: one must show extraordinary promise as a pilot to be admitted.
•The pilot ratings are displayed openly if the pilot selects their rating to be public
•If the player selects their rating to be private then it is only revealed via a scan

•These values never decrease
•Once admitted the pilot will be awarded a badge including the “Elite” logo, but with their current rank below. It is expected the majority of these will be “Elite: Dangerous” and “Elite: Deadly”. Those with an “Elite” rating get the original, unadorned badge.
•The different ratings have their own badge colour
•Once admitted to the EFP, elite missions/events become available to the event generator
•Successful resolution of elite missions/events will increase a hidden elite value
•In general, elite missions/events are not tied to any particular location or gameplay area, and are given context as having come through the EFP’s good offices (see the Pilot’s Federation document for more detail)
•There will be missions available from the EFP to non-members, and will be presented as tests that will help gain admission. Elite missions/events are more likely to be generated for pilots with suitable reputations in specific areas (mercenary, bounty hunting, assassination, smuggling)
•When the elite value is high enough a commander is invited to join the Elite Federation
•Elite level missions will be unlocked once the commander has entered the Elite federation to give them new content to experience

I'm pretty sure that there's more....

 

[Cathalo]

What you were inferring was that the game should be designed such that one particular role (piracy in this instance), played in a particular way (i.e. targeting players only) should be profitable. Restricting your play-style to one role and a tiny subset of all ships is your choice.

Well, I'm a PvP player. So it makes perfect sense that I would want to choose this role (as was advertised to me) and have a chance to profit by it without having to subject myself to PvE. How many times do I hear PvE players say the following "We don't want to be forced to be your content??" I hear this argument all the time. Has it never occurred to you or people like you that we as PvP players do not want to be forced to do "PvE content" either? Yet, as a pirate and to afford my Python I find myself doing PvE stuff about 80% of the time I play this game. THAT IS WRONG. Please understand.

 

[Commander Azriel]

Ahem, open mode? Risk vs Reward? Elite: "Dangerous"?

What do you risk? You are attacking traders in a Python, lol. Tough guy...

 

[Cathalo]

What do you risk? You are attacking traders in a Python, lol. Tough guy...

My rebuy cost is more than I can make in a week doing PvE scavenge runs, which is how I bought the ship in the first place. That doesn't matter much though, because I play Perma-Death. If I every get killed or ever forced to self destruct I reset my save anyway.

 

[DimGook]

Why must they be implemented 'a la EvE' ?

Where is your evidence that EvE suffered from a 'flood of credit farmers, account hijackers, and money scammers' ?

ALso there is a very clear and easy way to deal with all such things. Tackle the demand not the offer.

If FD make it abundantly clear that any credit purchase out of the game with real cash will lead to immediate account banning, they will destroy the business model of the credit farmers etc...

EvE cannot implement such a strategy because they are subscription based. But in a game where revenues come all upfront with a one off payment, and as long as their T&Cs are very clear about the risk of a ban for credit purchasing, what have they got to loose scaring the player base into avoiding credit purchase in the first place.

If there is no demand there won't be a market for credit purchases...

Any persistent world game where credits can be transferred easily between accounts will suffer this problem. If you doubt EVE's issues google it, it is the poster child for these sorts of problems which is why I use it as an example. As for your solution, where's the money to develop tools and hire staff to determine whose accounts are banned? Because a few false positives will ruin FD's reputation. And scaring the demand away doesn't work. EVE bans hurt a lot more than losing $60, they warn players all the time and have a very easy in-game alternative, but just google "buy eve isk" and you'll see the problem has never gone away.

In short credit transfers opens the pandora's box on metagaming that you probably don't want just so you can have your pvp pirate cake and eat your profits too.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Well, I'm a PvP player. So it makes perfect sense that I would want to choose this role (as was advertised to me) and have a chance to profit by it without having to subject myself to PvE. How many times do I hear PvE players say the following "We don't want to be forced to be your content??" I hear this argument all the time. Has it never occurred to you or people like you that we as PvP players do not want to be forced to do "PvE content" either? Yet, as a pirate and to afford my Python I find myself doing PvE stuff about 80% of the time I play this game. THAT IS WRONG. Please understand.

I understand that you have made a number of choices as to how you want to play the game. That said, there is nothing that you as a player can do to make pirating players profitable - it is up to the players that you are targeting to co-operate to some extent by dropping cargo. Even if they do, you have no influence over which cargo is dropped and, even if it is the most valuable in the cargo hold, whether it is of any real value to you. Disabling ships by shooting out thrusters will require the pilot of the target to self-destruct to continue their game as they are effectively marooned in space - so disabling ships is likely to make players simply self destruct as soon as they are disabled - no profit in that for you either.

I also understand that, given the size of the galaxy, player encounters are rare outside the most populated systems and that most ships that you encounter will be NPCs.

If the game had been advertised as PvP centric then you might have had a point.