Players losing it all and quitting - sure, their fault but not good for the game.

[ste]

I admit danger and concequence makes victories and achievements ingame feel all the more worth-while.
Still, the original poster has a -very- good point when fearing the game loosing Players permanently.
Arguments like "It's their fault, good riddance to them" and similar sound awfully elitist and lacking understanding.

You cant have both types of player though, you cant design a game that appeals to players who prefer a consequence and achievement, but make it so players who dont want any consequences and everything given to them just for picking up a controller happy too.

Most games try to appeal to the second type of player on the thinking it will attract the casual and the average gamer will buy anything anyway. And that is why the first type of players are complaining that games seem to be targeted at the lowest tolerance level players as if the game has no barriers it means everyone can play it which means everyone will buy it. Well thats what EA thinks anyway. Simcity is an example of this. Appeal to Mr pick up and play, make a really bad game, turn all the original fans away as the experience feels so cheap and empty.

The problem is though (and please keep in mind I love this game) is that it pretty much is dumbed down already, it's not a complex game at all and it's so far removed from being Dangerous it isn't even funny.
What it is instead is cumbersome, inconvenient and obtuse.

I don't even want anything changed but lets not kid ourselves here.

Thats the problem though, instead of making it more difficult frontier are going the other way instead to appeal to the players who want it more straight forward when its already at rock bottom levels already. They cant add any difficulty as people want pick up, play and win, frustration free instant but short lived fun.

 

[Phier]

True , I came to this game from other space simulation like Orbiter , now that's HARD, and totally unforgiving , The players who remain after the 1st year, will know how to fly safe, the rest will go back to WOW COD or gardening. For me I want ED to be more dangerous. Each time I take off I want to be terrified ,of the big black expanse & what it may throw at me next

The one time I flew uninsured was a milk run in a t6 and I was on the edge of my seat until I docked. I'm not crazy enough to fly without insurance as a rule, but danger makes even the mundane more interesting.

 

[Thebadmf]

I and the creative process that developed this disagree with you. I see this 'find your own way' to be key to this game. It's inherent in it's design philosophy. It would betray the Founders, Backer et. al. that put this game together. My new motto: 'The galaxy doesn't care'.

I am very sure that you only read a portion of my post. I completely agree that one should find their own way in Elite (my copy of the original had no manual and as an 8 year old, I learned to play) but the game needs to display information to an adequate level so that these decisions are informed. It shouldn't be complete guesswork to see the relative strength of various shields, for example. If a reminder to drop your landing gear can be given so can a pop up to highlight insurance or lack of.

Eliteangerous is the foundation of a great game and to make it better, as well as giving us more content ,the information given to the player needs to improve so the decisions a player makes, whether right or wrong is a reasonably educated one. The freedom to find your own path is the spirit of Elite. Not window licking until you find the right one.

 

[Ideas Man]

I am very sure that you only read a portion of my post. I completely agree that one should find their own way in Elite (my copy of the original had no manual and as an 8 year old, I learned to play) but the game needs to display information to an adequate level so that these decisions are informed. It shouldn't be complete guesswork to see the relative strength of various shields, for example. If a reminder to drop your landing gear can be given so can a pop up to highlight insurance or lack of.

Eliteangerous is the foundation of a great game and to make it better, as well as giving us more content ,the information given to the player needs to improve so the decisions a player makes, whether right or wrong is a reasonably educated one. The freedom to find your own path is the spirit of Elite. Not window licking until you find the right one.

I agree, the difficulty of the game isn't an issue really, but the general polish and, Quality Of Life and user friendliness could do with a look at.

 

[Mikkel Toxwenius]

So many people here would rather see this game dwindle down in population with "punishing actions" vs try to keep the game growing. WoW removed the punishing action of corpse running that EQ had and I would say that worked out really well for Blizzard and not so well for EQ. I forget though that everyone here wanted this game to be single-player instead so having a small pop would make it better for them.

I don't equate holding people's hands with having an extra reminder saying, "You have insufficient funds for insurance." Possibly better if there was a training mission "How Insurance Works" that put you in a python, have a notification that told you to look at your current funds of 20K, then another to look at your rebuy cost. Then told you to undock despite having a "WANTED" status and have a security ship immediately scan you and you get destroyed. You succeed the mission by choosing to give up the Python and be put back in your sidewinder.

Personally I liked seeing commanders flying around. Guess I'm a minority.

I really like your suggestion on the game informing the player on how insurance works. I donøt think there is much wrong with the insurance system now, but there is definitely a problem with the lack of info on how it works. In fact is there any info at all, except when you actually die?

 

[Matt Hawkins]

The "insurance" system is just fine as it is. When you upgrade your ship you check the rebuy cost. You then make sure you've got that in your cash pile. Round it up to make the maths easy. If you fail you end up in a Sidewinder. If you can't afford the debut cost it's your risk. Nothing that needs fixing.

Without this there would be zero incentive to not crash their fancy ship.

Once you get caught out you learn and don't do it again. Don't you? Basically people are looking for excuses for their mistakes.

 

[evilquesadilla]

How about making people pay for insurance up front? When you buy a car, at least here in the US, if you don't have insurance already, the car dealer makes you purchase temporary insurance in addition to your down payment, before letting you drive the car off the lot.

So when you buy a ship, have a additional itemized item that is the insurance of the ship that people cannot opt out of.

When I first heard of the insurance in Elite, I assumed it was paid up front. Paying after your ship is destroyed is more like a deductable. I was surprised to find out insurance is free until you lose your ship, which isn't really realistic. And I'm not saying Elite should make insurance realistic, but rather I'm saying making people pay for insurance up front isn't unrealistic.

 

[Ideas Man]

The "insurance" system is just fine as it is. When you upgrade your ship you check the rebuy cost. You then make sure you've got that in your cash pile. Round it up to make the maths easy. If you fail you end up in a Sidewinder. If you can't afford the debut cost it's your risk. Nothing that needs fixing.

Without this there would be zero incentive to not crash their fancy ship.

Once you get caught out you learn and don't do it again. Don't you? Basically people are looking for excuses for their mistakes.

I think I agree that the system is fine but the info relayed to the player ahead of a time when you need to use it could be tweaked to be more user friendly, I think a 'Would cost xxxx CR to rebuy on destruction' tool tip at the side of ships when you are buying them would be good.

 

[Mikkel Toxwenius]

I think I agree that the system is fine but the info relayed to the player ahead of a time when you need to use it could be tweaked to be more user friendly, I think a 'Would cost xxxx CR to rebuy on destruction' tool tip at the side of ships when you are buying them would be good.

+rep for the suggestion on increased information on insurance. The system works, but new players need to have some way in-game to be informed/learn how it works.

 

[Ideas Man]

+rep for the suggestion on increased information on insurance. The system works, but new players need to have some way in-game to be informed/learn how it works.

Thanks Yeah I see it here and there in this game and it is mistaken by some as 'difficulty' when in reality it's just the game being a bit obscure.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

There's an idea. How about loans? If a player dies without re-buy money, the money they don't have is loaned to them, plus interest, and their credit balance is drained with each transaction until the loan and interest are repaid, at increasing rates of drain based on how much was owed? This would slow down their future progress in the game (maybe badly), without causing them to lose ALL of it.

That's what actually happens now, up to a limit of a 200,000 CR loan, and the fact that you don't know that just reinforces my point of view - that there needs to be more info for the player in game.

 

[Mikey2305]

ive got 16m saved up now and insurance on my asp is 600k. this means i can afford to lose my ship 26.666 times before im back to a sidey... perhaps im being over cautious?

 

[NettiWelho]

ive got 16m saved up now and insurance on my asp is 600k. this means i can afford to lose my ship 26.666 times before im back to a sidey... perhaps im being over cautious?

Upgrade your Asp, you can sell the parts for the same money later on.

 

[Ian Skippy]

I have to agree with the original poster.

I always try to set aside re-buy money... but what if I get whacked twice in a row? I want my ship to be the best I can afford for it to be, so I don't have a backup ship. That means that if I do die twice in a row, unless I happen to have saved up an enormous amount, I am ALL the way back to zero.

I've invested MONTHS of my time into this game. Losing it all would drive me beyond despair and into a deep pit of depression. How many people do you want to commit suicide because of this game? I bet there have already been some. Ok, sure, that's kinda crazy, but then, some people ARE kinda crazy. And no, I won't do it; I'd just rage-quit like the others.

Seriously, though. This game isn't all it can be if you lose THAT much of your real-world time and work for a simple mistake. I think the makers should come up with a different way to penalize players for dying without re-buy money. How about being kicked off the game for a day, while their 'toon "earns the re-buy money" or "negotiates a loan?"

There's an idea. How about loans? If a player dies without re-buy money, the money they don't have is loaned to them, plus interest, and their credit balance is drained with each transaction until the loan and interest are repaid, at increasing rates of drain based on how much was owed? This would slow down their future progress in the game (maybe badly), without causing them to lose ALL of it.

No to all your suggestions. Insurance is 5%. Just keep 3x insurance, it only makes things 15% more expensive once. Whenever you end up without enough for insurance, sell a module, get a cheaper ship and earn your insurance back. There is really no excuse for loosing everything other than impatience and greed. Just work one hour more before getting into your expansive ship. If you really can't muster the self-control and bring yourself into a situation where you risk everything: blame yourself, not the game. And I'd suggest changing your own behaviour, not the game.

And just to be sure: everyone who even remotely considers any kind of self-harm when contemplating losing everything in ED should quit right now and get help. Immediately.

 

[Tempered]

Newsflash! People are quitting or taking a break from the game because :

1. They find the game boring.
2. Mad about no single player.
3. There are way too many really good games out that they would rather play.
4. They find the game too hard.
5. They are mad about it not being world of tanks/world of warcraft/sims online.

Losing everything because of lack of insurance is just the last insult that did them in. If they really enjoyed the game, they would learn their lesson and continue playing.

 

[Ideas Man]

If they really enjoyed the game, they would learn their lesson and continue playing.

Yeah, people really need to man up and not expect to have so much fun in their leisure time. Well said, hopefully we never get the much more fleshed out systems and polished gameplay of those other games you mentioned as well, bravo old chap.

 

[marnikos]

From my point of view the death penalty is very harsh, it is quite annoying especially for beginners every once in a while to have to start over. And over and over again. More than a dozen times I destroyed for various reasons and I had to set back to 1000cr. For 2 weeks since I started playing I haven't progress at all... More confused and more annoyed every day. Although my skills improv, I don't feel I'm accomplyshing anything...

the game punishes the player to much.

I guess it's only my fault or it isn't?

 

[NettiWelho]

If you are a beginner you can take advantage of the 200k loan. Its good all the way up to ships worth 4m.

 

[Ideas Man]

How about something like this...

So, you really really messed up, your ship is gone, not enough for a loan and insurance can't help, you are, in short - knackered.

OK, that sucks but now you have an option, it's a rep based mission and this time you'll be gaining rep with the Intergalactic Loan Company. They throw you the keys to the saddest Sidewinder you have ever seen, complete with their logo and company motto "Don't Fly What You Can't Afford" emblazoned down the side.

They want you to run missions for them, real low level stuff 'Can you deliver this paperwork?' and stuff like that, there's no money in it but if you can pull it off and stick it out they say they'll let you have a bigger loan.

OK, give me the damn keys, at least your destiny is still in your own hands.

 

[Zvanya]

Not true. I've loved the game so far, though it's not perfect, yet I highly doubt I'd have the will to start over all the darn way from scratch if I lost my Cobra and the MONTHS of time I've spent earning money to upgrade it almost to the top tier.

Getting set back by entire months is just... just... utterly beyond the pale. Sure, it happens in real life, but that is NOT the kind of thing I want to carry over from real life into a game! I get plenty of work-without-the-net in real life. E needs to come up with a different system.

Don't risk it then! If you don't have rebuy money to fly the Cobra take a lesser ship to make the money you need. You can't expect this game to eliminate any last possibility that lack of judgement will result in a horrible loss. You can prevent yourself from suffering that loss though, simply by never taking that risk.

EDIT: Or, maybe you can expect just that. Maybe that will happen and they will change things so no one ever loses their ship no matter how foolish they act. I hope not.

 

[Ideas Man]

You can't expect this game to eliminate any last possibility that lack of judgement will result in a horrible loss.

Yes you can, or at least you can keep the power to make it right in the players hands.