Shields/Combat: What's gonna be left?

[SE-Apocalypse]

I can't relate to your "stand and tank" opinion. Anacondas rip you apart in a Viper, even more so in a Cobra, when you just stand there head to head for a shootout. Their damage kills shields faster than the shield cells can refill them, so this point is moot.

Anacondas can not even hit you beyond 1km even if you go head to head with them and just reverse + lateral thrust. If you really that bad than get a pair of rails, bring the shields that way down (laser damage falls off to hard at long-range) and go than in for a quick kill of the powerplant with gimballed cannons and your rails.

And use a double chaff setup and forget about the kws, at least until you start to get a hang for controlling you lateral thrust. Let me guess, you are a mouse player and lateral thrust and flight assist off is not in your tool kit? ;-)

BTW how old are you that you complain about your hand-eye coordination to someone who is closer to 40 than 30?

The sweet spot for the anaconda is btw 90° top/aft and 90° bottom/aft, that way you can still hit the power plant just fine, even with fixed and super easy with gimbals and have only to bother about one or two turrets shooting at you 50% of the time (keep using those chaffs).

The part why I use still shield cells is that I do not stay behind the thing, but instead fly the anaconda with flight assist off, 4 pips to weapons, 0.5 or 1 to engine and the rest to shields while firing with verything I have onto the power planet. This means I get a full load return fire from the anas top turrets, and as I am using fixed lasers I can not evade to much if I want to hit the powerplanet with them. On the plus side, you need that way just two passes to kill the thing, which reduces the time to kill the anaconda below the time the cops need to show up.

Which I have the feeling you forgot to activate either, because this would help you elite to spread the anaconda damage out a little. "report crimes against me" would call for reinforcements and is in general a decent plan if you have trouble with your target.

If all this does not help, just use 2 gimballed beams and dumbfire missiles or even just 4 dumbfire launchers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ps-GaRpDZfQ

So, lastly the irony lies in the fact that you should be happy that there is still challanging content for you. With time you will get better and pve combat might become as easy and dull as trading is for most. Making the content more challenging should be good for pve players, because it keeps things interesting.

 

[Andi]

I do use lateral thrust a lot, especially in my Viper, but why don't they hit YOU from 1km, when they clearly hit ME? And they don't only sting a little, they hurt like a . And it's not like they'd stand still and let you kill them, right. Those small blind spots aren't easy to hold.

And yes, you're right, I'm a mouse player (but plan to get a stick soon). With Viper much more nimble than an Anaconda, what does FA off do for me here?

 

[SE-Apocalypse]

Asp is mainly an exploration vessel.

*rolleyes* Yeah, that is what all those weapon and utility slots are telling me too. Best use in areas with no combat at all and no weapons outfitted. The Asp is an awesome combat vessel too and imho the best stealth bomber in the game if you equip a few heatsinks + 6 dumbfire or torpedos.

 

[Raz0rking]

shield cells are usefull but not crucial. A lot of pvp battles between "capital" ships are won by whom has the most shield cell banks...

 

[SE-Apocalypse]

And yes, you're right, I'm a mouse player (but plan to get a stick soon). With Viper much more nimble than an Anaconda, what does FA off do for me here?

Flight assist off.

And the npc anaconda simply can NOT aim decently at ranges above 1km, if you reach about 2km you can more or less even stop evading (still watch out for the slow green shots, they can oneshot you). As the ana is so big it still super easy to hit the chasing mob and just kite it and it does not try to evade at all, it just tries to chase you with both speed while you simply fly backwards and slowly kill it's shields. Outside of crashing into an asteroid I think it is impossible to lose against an npc ana with anything that is faster. Don´t get to far away, at about 2.5km your pirate lord might actually just charge his fsd and warp away.

BTW, what distance you are to your target when you try to stay behind? I am usually below 100m, often even below 30m, which allows me to use the hull of the Anaconda itself as cover, if you are further away the fire arcs of the weapons have it easier to hit you and simply rolling of the enemy can not be compensate anymore with lateral thrust.

 

[Mr_Blastman]

Shield potions shouldn't even be here in my opinion. Everybody has shields, the playing field is level. Why are shield potions necessary? If assassination missions are too tough, then balance them, but don't do it by giving players access to magic potions that restore their shields or fights will degenerate to who's got the most shield cells competitions, all other things being equal and that just sucks tbh. Maybe have a module that increases the durability of the shield, or increases resistance to a single damage type with a module limit per ship of 1, but shield potions suck and I would happily see them removed from the game.

Here here! Remove the potions!

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In PVP, they hardly matter. Whoever runs out first loses and has to flee - so what?

So what?

Let's see... umm... he who brings the most cells to a fight, wins. And by proxy, the ship that can haul the most, wins (assuming equal pilots). That's a problem. The determining factor shouldn't be a potion, it should be skill. That's a huge problem.

 

[Dogoncrook]

Here here! Remove the potions!

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So what?

Let's see... umm... he who brings the most cells to a fight, wins. And by proxy, the ship that can haul the most, wins (assuming equal pilots). That's a problem. The determining factor shouldn't be a potion, it should be skill. That's a huge problem.

I'm not sure how I feel about nerfing these, but how is it skill based to show up in an eagle with rockets? This game will never be twitch skill based as loadouts aren't equal and classes aren't balanced. The skill here is about picking your battles and fighting with the advantage. This isn't world of tanks, it's more falcon 4. Migs can't win an encounter with an f-16 1v1 and That has nothing to do with the relative skill of the pilot.

 

[aspiring_captain]

Anacondas can not even hit you beyond 1km even if you go head to head with them and just reverse + lateral thrust.

You're talking about the 150k assassination mission elite anacondas right? Not nav point or asteroid belt ones.
I know a viper can stay in its blind spots but I kill them the slow way by flying backwards at 2.5km, use chaff, and avoid the plasma shot using lateral thrusters and I STILL need to use shield cells. This in a kitted out Cobra.
So you're either really frickin leet or I don't believe you.

 

[Andi]

No idea how you stay that close. I can't do that even in my Viper.

 

[Eagle Eye]

I use SCB and will be HAPPY to have it removed. Viper/Cobra dismantling an Anaconda solo is not balanced in any way, I did it plenty of times in both ships, even against the supposedly "harder" Python (this one I try to challenge myself and use Eagle instead of Viper) they are still too easy to beat. I have been saved from many bad situations I put myself through bad piloting by a simple push of a button that will fully charge my shield every time I need it. That's not balanced.

 

[Mohrgan]

Balancing for PvP is a terrible idea. Pandering to small factions of players is troubling. FD should tune this whole thing out, and design the game as they have been. Balance is futile. There will always be a group that wants changes, giving into them will just invite more complaining.
:
FD needs to stick to their guns, and design the galaxy with the philosophy have used so far, not from opinions on a forum post. Mine included.

 

[Dogoncrook]

Just nerfing or getting rid of them probably isn't the solution. In Beta the main complaint was that traders had nothing, they were sitting ducks. There was no downside to interdicting one, and no risk. So I always assumed these and interdictee damage was the fruit of that tree.

Maybe it was maybe it wasn't but making it a choice between offensive or defensive would be more palatable to me. Make them take up a hard point or use up your weapons pips. Makes it more interesting.

 

[DCello]

In my personal opinion, shields act more like deflectors screens than actual shields right now. They are great for soaking up minimal damage and deflecting minor bumps, but they can't really absorb anything without crashing. Case in point, bumping into a station.

 

[SE-Apocalypse]

No idea how you stay that close. I can't do that even in my Viper.

Throttle management and playing with the lateral thrusters. Reverse thrust, forward, sideward, upward, etc …

It not even hard because once you are that close all the anaconda does is basically spinning and trying to get you face to face, which it never ever will reach because you can orbit faster than the anaconda can pitch. So it basically just rolls and does not move relative to you at all, while it gets hit by your guns.

It literally farming them without paying much attention if you use one or two shield cells, you have to managed your energy if you don´t, because for sure you get sometimes hit if you want to kill them fast enough before they can escape.

Right now I am using c2 gimballed-multis to hit the powerplant as fast, hard and easy as possible together with c1 fixed pulse. I guess using fixed cannons with fixed beams would be smarter, but my mainboard fried on my gaming rig, so I have not played for a few days and not tested some other weapon outfits. Used before just 4 fixed pulse laser, took quite a lot longer to kill the power plant, guess pulse lasers simply do no good damage against armor and thus are not good to snipe sub-systems.

 

[Andi]

Okay now, I tried the "fly backwards and fire, he can't hit you" tactic. Result: Shields down before a shield cell could recharge the shield (Viper), hull to 47%, shortest attempt ever. So obviously this doesn't work.

Staying at 30m (!) is impossible, too.

 

[SE-Apocalypse]

You're talking about the 150k assassination mission elite anacondas right? Not nav point or asteroid belt ones.
I know a viper can stay in its blind spots but I kill them the slow way by flying backwards at 2.5km, use chaff, and avoid the plasma shot using lateral thrusters and I STILL need to use shield cells. This in a kitted out Cobra.
So you're either really frickin leet or I don't believe you.

Yeah, 200k assassination missions with 50k bounty anacondas, not the strong 100k+ elite ones from the res, those are actually stronger imho.
And the target profile from the viper is simply much smaller than your cobra, I see lasers nearly hitting me a lot, but actually hitting is rare and when they do I just change lateral thruster direction again and the follow up shots will most likely miss me > the joys of gimbal mechanics. Always dance, always lateral thrust and always rotate your pattern else the npc will start hitting.

It really not about being crazy good, it just that the AI is crazy bad. Lots of people do it, I am for sure not alone with this. Forum is full of people who tell us how easy Anacondas are and that they can do them without shield cells. Heck, I did my first elite anaconda in an eagle with pulse lasers and one missile launcher without shield cells because I did not know better ... now that was fun and I immediately upgraded to a viper for more firepower because it was very much and very long 'fun' ... though the eagle for sure takes much less damage, actually it takes no damage at all in that blind spot. So in this regard the viper was an downgrade, but c2 hurt so much more, so it was simply a necessity to farm. Though maybe a triple dumbfire eagle might actually be good at the job too, because eagle dumbfire are so super cheap.

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Staying at 30m (!) is impossible, too.

I think you have taken this part a little to literally. That is a minimal distance and you will not able to do damage, evade fire and keep that distance at all times and avoid getting rammed at the same time. Don´t get closer than that, try to achieve that optimum distance, but don´t be over-enthusiastic about it. As long as the enemy anaconda fills most of your screen you are for sure close enough.

 

[Dogoncrook]

Okay now, I tried the "fly backwards and fire, he can't hit you" tactic. Result: Shields down before a shield cell could recharge the shield (Viper), hull to 47%, shortest attempt ever. So obviously this doesn't work.

Staying at 30m (!) is impossible, too.

Practice in nav points when they are distracted because you have to get their routine down. What he is talking about is powergaming and is more or less exploiting holes in the ai routines. I'm pretty sure you'd be obliterated by a cmdr, or it would just jump out. I've had them spam mines so getting behind them only works on the low ranked ones. Although I don't hunt uss spots so they may spawn differently there.

 

[Andi]

What would I train there?
They shoot me down within a few seconds at 1400m. There is nothing to train here, as they just start to shoot and it's over.

I normally fly close, try to somehow stay behind them as good as possible, shields 4 pips, rest in weapons, to fire my multis, and that's it. Finger on the shield cell hotkey.
That's how I kill them in a Viper.

Now, make the shield cells uneffective and there's no chance I can beat them.
I killed one with lasers only, too, so I can survive in a Viper against them, but ONLY with shield cells. That's how it is.

 

[Dogoncrook]

Yeah, 200k assassination missions with 50k bounty anacondas, not the strong 100k+ elite ones from the res, those are actually stronger imho.
And the target profile from the viper is simply much smaller than your cobra, I see lasers nearly hitting me a lot, but actually hitting is rare and when they do I just change lateral thruster direction again and the follow up shots will most likely miss me > the joys of gimbal mechanics. Always dance, always lateral thrust and always rotate your pattern else the npc will start hitting.

It really not about being crazy good, it just that the AI is crazy bad. Lots of people do it, I am for sure not alone with this. Forum is full of people who tell us how easy Anacondas are and that they can do them without shield cells. Heck, I did my first elite anaconda in an eagle with pulse lasers and one missile launcher without shield cells because I did not know better ... now that was fun and I immediately upgraded to a viper for more firepower because it was very much and very long 'fun' ... though the eagle for sure takes much less damage, actually it takes no damage at all in that blind spot. So in this regard the viper was an downgrade, but c2 hurt so much more, so it was simply a necessity to farm. Though maybe a triple dumbfire eagle might actually be good at the job too, because eagle dumbfire are so super cheap.

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I think you have taken this part a little to literally. That is a minimal distance and you will not able to do damage, evade fire and keep that distance at all times and avoid getting rammed at the same time. Don´t get closer than that, try to achieve that optimum distance, but don´t be over-enthusiastic about it. As long as the enemy anaconda fills most of your screen you are for sure close enough.

I'm not so sure the ai is crazy bad though the ships aren't being used properly. A big lumbering ship should be escorted by fighters. I don't actually think 1v1 it's that far out of balance. A better fitted ai cobra is a better example. Thats the fight that needs balancing. As a modern example we didn't sink ships with naval engagements anymore we send a tiny plane to drop a tiny bomb and that's that. The bigger the ship the more vulnerable it is.

 

[SE-Apocalypse]

Practice in nav points when they are distracted because you have to get their routine down. What he is talking about is powergaming and is more or less exploiting holes in the ai routines. I'm pretty sure you'd be obliterated by a cmdr, or it would just jump out. I've had them spam mines so getting behind them only works on the low ranked ones. Although I don't hunt uss spots so they may spawn differently there.

The USS are super easy compared to the high bounty RES ones, so you are definitely doing the harder ones. I got nearly blown up in my eagle from a 100k ana in a res and I did unload 16 dumbfire into it when the shields were down, it barely noticed the damage. A lot more respect from those, because within a few seconds when unloading my missile my shields and hulll did melt like a snowman in the summer.

Anyway, here a little video from someone else:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5iFTpiNN5k

It is a shame that his face is in the way, watching his power management would be more interesting. He is imho not aggressive enough too and could do a lot better at evading and getting closer, but well, down is down, even when it is not a nice kill and playing while talking is hard, so he actually might be better than me when he is not streaming/ commenting & recording.