Rebalance dumbfire missiles please

Bortas · Jan 22, 2015

The more I'm reading about the Python nerf, the more confident I am, that dumbfires need a look at by the dev team, too...

Just take a look at this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ps-GaRpDZfQ

[video=youtube;ps-GaRpDZfQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ps-GaRpDZfQ[/video]

Basically a ASP or even Viper (seen a vide of a Dumbfire Viper destroying a player Python in seconds, yesterday, just can't find it now... maybe someone else can post it), equipped with Dumfires can basically destroy anything within seconds... so fast, that even using shield cells is hardly possible.

added:
[video=youtube;WRQ52Q6UUaY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRQ52Q6UUaY[/video]
thanks to heartorhead for the link.

This problem will get even worse, once wings are introduced... think about a small wing of 2 or 3 vipers or even eagles with dumbfires destroying Pythons and Anacondas with a single volley of dumbfires in a few seconds. This is just wrong.

The problem is not even the high damage of dumbfires, but the rate of fire is totally ridiculous. Please reduce it to the same rate as heat seeking missiles to give pilots of slow ships that cannot evade a chance to use shield cells. It would be pitiful to see only players with Vipers in open with the large ships forced to solo, because of dumbfire missiles being a death sentence to them.

Valor_Bunker · Jan 22, 2015

Vipers needs to be toned down as well. I think four small hardpoints are more than enough for such a small and cheap ship. The shields are too strong. Its too nimble to have such a perfect hardpoint position and two medium hardpoints are far too much. Cobra on the other hand, had to be buffed. The shields are too weak.

simon terlecki · Jan 22, 2015

What makes me laugh about the video you posted is that yes dumbfires can be very powerful, but the way he's using it, he's going to be at a nav beacon for a minute, or a minute and a half, then go back to restock, hand in his bounty vouchers and lose money on the whole transaction.

In general, I would think the only balancing they need is to make them more expensive to buy, maybe as expensive as heat seekers since the seeker missiles do less damage, but don't need to be aimed.

Someone who has that loadout will spend all his time in supercruise to go get more ammo, so that's a balance, lol.

Dakron Nova · Jan 22, 2015

I think to many people are focused of trying to balance everything here. Whats the point.

You may as well just restrict everyone to a single ship, same weapon loadouts, samw jump range, same bountys, same profit per tonne, etc

There should be these differences it keeps every thing interesting.

On the forums lately Ive read a lot about the python being over powered, and now it turns out that dumb fires are a fairly effective weapon against them people want it changed?

Its madness to keep chasing the dials keep it stable and people will learn the best tactics for a given situation otherwise the devs will spend all their time tinkering to please the community and never develop new content.

Kyokushin · Jan 22, 2015

LOL. Another nerfing thread.

As i said. YOu nerf one thing at demand and everyone do want nerfing everything.

Bortas · Jan 22, 2015

simon terlecki said:
In general, I would think the only balancing they need is to make them more expensive to buy, maybe as expensive as heat seekers since the seeker missiles do less damage, but don't need to be aimed.

Not sufficient... Price doesn't matter when it comes to PvP, unless they cost 50k per missile. 500 is nothing.

Someone who has that loadout will spend all his time in supercruise to go get more ammo, so that's a balance, lol.

That's not the point... a player who wants to kill a player Anaconda or Python doesn't mind getting back to a station after doing that. I'm not talking about PvE here, for which a dumbfire loadout is of course pretty pointless. For PvP they are ridiculously overpowered. Maybe we will talk again, once you own an Anaconda and got destroyed by a player Viper before you even realized, what was going on.

Bortas · Jan 22, 2015

Dakron Nova said:
Its madness to keep chasing the dials keep it stable and people will learn the best tactics for a given situation otherwise the devs will spend all their time tinkering to please the community and never develop new content.

Please let us know your tactic of how to defend against dumbfire missiles in a big ship then... I will help you out... doesn't exist.

I'm not the type to balance everything... but when you look at dumbfire missiles, it looks like they forgot to limit their rate of fire in the first place. They are game-breaking and need to be fixed.

Niewinter · Jan 22, 2015

Yes letz nerf everything shield cells dumbfire shields Eagels Vipers Phytons Anacondas oh and the transporters they have waaaayy to much cargo space this is imba OP and not fair.
ohh wait .. lets remove all ships from the game and only keep the sidewinder with two small hard points and 4 cargo space then the game is fair for every one

i am so sick about nerf that nerf this if some thing is so imba then why is not everyone in elite flyning it????

kelticfury · Jan 22, 2015

Niewinter said:
Yes letz nerf everything shield cells dumbfire shields Eagels Vipers Phytons Anacondas oh and the transporters they have waaaayy to much cargo space this is imba OP and not fair.
ohh wait .. lets remove all ships from the game and only keep the sidewinder with two small hard points and 4 cargo space then the game is fair for every one

i am so sick about nerf that nerf this if some thing is so imba then why is not everyone in elite flyning it????

Yeah, space trucks can haul way too much tonnage. I can't compete in my hauler. NERF trading!

SE-Apocalypse · Jan 22, 2015

Valor_Bunker said:
Vipers needs to be toned down as well. I think four small hardpoints are more than enough for such a small and cheap ship. The shields are too strong. Its too nimble to have such a perfect hardpoint position and two medium hardpoints are far too much. Cobra on the other hand, had to be buffed. The shields are too weak.

Oo
Remember me to ignore your balance ideas.

kelticfury · Jan 22, 2015

Bortas said:
Please let us know your tactic of how to defend against dumbfire missiles in a big ship then... I will help you out... doesn't exist.

I'm not the type to balance everything... but when you look at dumbfire missiles, it looks like they forgot to limit their rate of fire in the first place. They are game-breaking and need to be fixed.

Have you actually looked at the missile launcher that is installed on a ship? it has.. what 9 missile tubes? Maybe 6 I can't remember. Looks like it is supposed to have a rapid rate of fire, til reload anyway.

CmdrZaratan · Jan 22, 2015

I'm looking forward to seeing how point defense goes against Dumbfires after they release the fix that allows dumbfires to be hit by point defense and turrets (currently dumbfires have a zero sized hitbox so they can't be shot down by anything). Should at least allow an Anaconda some protection.

Firing rate for them is also probably a bit on the high side. Won't take much to fix them.

SE-Apocalypse · Jan 22, 2015

Bortas said:
The more I'm reading about the Python nerf, the more confident I am, that dumbfires need a look at by the dev team, too...

Just take a look at this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ps-GaRpDZfQ

[video=youtube;ps-GaRpDZfQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ps-GaRpDZfQ[/video]

Basically a ASP or even Viper (seen a vide of a Dumbfire Viper destroying a player Python in seconds, yesterday, just can't find it now... maybe someone else can post it), equipped with Dumfires can basically destroy anything within seconds... so fast, that even using shield cells is hardly possible.

This problem will get even worse, once wings are introduced... think about a small wing of 2 or 3 vipers or even eagles with dumbfires destroying Pythons and Anacondas with a single volley of dumbfires in a few seconds. This is just wrong.

The problem is not even the high damage of dumbfires, but the rate of fire is totally ridiculous. Please reduce it to the same rate as heat seeking missiles to give pilots of slow ships that cannot evade a chance to use shield cells. It would be pitiful to see only players with Vipers in open with the large ships forced to solo, because of dumbfire missiles being a death sentence to them.

There is one twist to this all: Point Defense can not hit Dumbfire missiles right now, once this get patched the meta will shift again and a useful defense against dumbfire spam might be possible.
There is a second twist tot his as well: Eagles are better than vipers with dumbfire, while laser vipers and cobras can deal just fine with eagles before they get in range. So we have here a chain of counter-plays to this and imho it is a given that large heavy ships have a weakness against small bomber-like ships. Get some escort eagles for your combat ana.

Ghostickles · Jan 22, 2015

sigh, better things to do at this phase of the game, but w/e..................

Vandaahl · Jan 22, 2015

simon terlecki said:
What makes me laugh about the video you posted is that yes dumbfires can be very powerful, but the way he's using it, he's going to be at a nav beacon for a minute, or a minute and a half, then go back to restock, hand in his bounty vouchers and lose money on the whole transaction.

In general, I would think the only balancing they need is to make them more expensive to buy, maybe as expensive as heat seekers since the seeker missiles do less damage, but don't need to be aimed.

Someone who has that loadout will spend all his time in supercruise to go get more ammo, so that's a balance, lol.

This exactly.

Bortas · Jan 22, 2015

kelticfury said:
Have you actually looked at the missile launcher that is installed on a ship? it has.. what 9 missile tubes? Maybe 6 I can't remember. Looks like it is supposed to have a rapid rate of fire, til reload anyway.

Interestingly my heat seeking launcher looks the same and can't fire all missiles at once... weird...

Belsameth · Jan 22, 2015

Niewinter said:
Yes letz nerf everything shield cells dumbfire shields Eagels Vipers Phytons Anacondas oh and the transporters they have waaaayy to much cargo space this is imba OP and not fair.
ohh wait .. lets remove all ships from the game and only keep the sidewinder with two small hard points and 4 cargo space then the game is fair for every one

i am so sick about nerf that nerf this if some thing is so imba then why is not everyone in elite flyning it????

Because they're situationally "imba", like the dumbfire. In that situation, however, they're bordering on silly in their power.
Should a dumbfire be powerfull? Yes, absolutely.
Should you be able to spam half a metric ton in the space of a second? Absolutely not.

One solution would be giving them splash damage. That way you have to keep somewhat of a safe distance from your target, which means the Conda or Python can hammer you back.

heartorhead · Jan 22, 2015

This is the video

[video=youtube;WRQ52Q6UUaY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRQ52Q6UUaY[/video]

CmdrZaratan · Jan 22, 2015

They're a bit too effective against shields really. Bet the python in the video didn't have 4 pips to shields though.

SE-Apocalypse · Jan 22, 2015

Belsameth said:
Because they're situationally "imba", like the dumbfire. In that situation, however, they're bordering on silly in their power.
Should a dumbfire be powerfull? Yes, absolutely.
Should you be able to spam half a metric f-ton in the space of a second? Absolutely not.

One solution would be giving them splash damage. That way you have to keep somewhat of a safe distance from your target, which means the Conda or Python can hammer you back.

Uhm, don´t they already have splash damage? Is explosive damage not supposed to splash?

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CmdrZaratan said:
They're a bit too effective against shields really. Bet the python in the video didn't have 4 pips to shields though.

The Python in the video dies mainly because of gimbals and chaff btw, with fixed guns it would have blown away that Viper in the last second, but instead the gimbal guns were shooting everywhere but at the viper. A wonderful fail fit.