Modes The Solo vs Open vs Groups Thread [See new thread]

[snowleopard]

It wouldn't be TOO difficult to police, I think. Elite isn't running on pure P2P, there are aspects handled by a central server. Just off the top of my head, I'd include some telemetry that watches for matchmaking directions being sent from the main server. If too many matchmaking directives end up failing on the P2P side, I set to have a flag in order to take a deeper look at what's happening with that account. If the telemetry showed evidence of someone screwing with router setups to avoid P2P connections like that, THEN I'd take action.

And how would you make a distinction between somebody deliberately screwing with the router setup and ISP/anti-virus blocking ports for example ("I am sorry sir, my ISP doesn't like many concurrent connections/My AV is playing up, blocking all the ports every time databases are updated/ I am connecting from Wi-Fi in the hotel, they have blocked all uPNP traffic") ? Do you start banning everyone whose P2P ports are blocked?
Even worse, if there is a filter on the P2P ports only allowing IPs from certain range to connect ("group" mode) the flag may never even be raised in first place.

 

[snotface]

I would buy it.

But I still would play in Open. You cannot get better than emergent play and meaningful player interactions!

I would buy it the moment it was released, and as FD are a games company they could make a lot of money making the Offline version available, with bug updates.

I would still play online, and I would expect them to be completely separate games.

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And how would you make a distinction between somebody deliberately screwing with the router setup and ISP/anti-virus blocking ports for example ("I am sorry sir, my ISP doesn't like many concurrent connections/My AV is playing up, blocking all the ports every time databases are updated/ I am connecting from Wi-Fi in the hotel, they have blocked all uPNP traffic") ? Do you start banning everyone whose P2P ports are blocked?
Even worse, if there is a filter on the P2P ports only allowing IPs from certain range to connect ("group" mode) the flag may never even be raised in first place.

people will cheat in every game if they wish. In Elite they are only cheating themselves. Fine they can give themselves 5 billion credits, have the best ships and even make themselves elite, but like all cheats they get bored fast and go away.

 

[Dave1235]

The answer is of course - YOU* have NO idea what they will do.

*and us

I repped you for your optimism and tenacity in the face of overwhelming facts, and yes I did rep you , you deserve it for the effort, even though we have very different opinions.

I honestly am sorry if this game is not what you thought you bought, doesn't meet your expectations / definition of an MMO etc, I backed it 6 months ago and have enjoyed every single day I played / tested it (bugs and all, I have been quite lucky there though generally).

We do have an "idea what they will do", they have told us in the news letters, DDF, other Dev posts, Dev blogs etc, until I see a retraction I consider what's been said to still be valid.

Wings will be here soon, they should improve the game a lot, they might even encourage more people to come into open, more safety in a group (lol open will be easy mode then if you have a few friends), it was asked "will we have a colour on the radar / map to show us who is in our wing" and the Dev (Sandro I think) said "without a doubt or its a given", either way a yes, he also said FD wanted to make it as easy as possible for people in "wings" too meet each other too (I think on the galaxy map too we will see each other), jumping as a group was a part of DDF IIRC, to be honest wings won't work without it, I hope player comms improve too, if not wings will struggle, but I am sure its being worked on as well.

I will ask you a question I asked the other day generally and didn't see a response too, with a little more detail (I may have missed answers but I do try to read every post, hence replying to older ones as I catch up).

I bought this game 2 weeks before PB launched, I played the solo "tutorials" lol, I use the word "tutorial" loosely, but those along with the Sidey's owners manual & a bit of youtube & player info from reading the forums, I had the hang of kb/m and I was flying ok before PB launched.

More recently during the week I have been playing solo if I didn't have long to play, had a bad day at work & just want to unwind and don't feel sociable etc. Sometimes I pop into Mobius PVE group (I joined ages ago because I liked their principles, with ~3k players I don't think I have seen another player in 5+ hours there (be careful what you ask for in your separate game, you may be very lonely when the sheep decide to stay where they are) I maybe play in that group an hour or two every other week, then weekends I was mostly in open, a glass of wine or two on a Friday / Saturday night & I feel a little more chatty in "MY" virtual world, yes I bought this game so I could have fun.

I decided I did not want to play in open around a month back, not because I am scared, I am trading in my nearly all A grade type 6 with low value cargo as I am working on local rep, some "donation" BB missions too / get me this / deliver this etc, I normally try to keep 3 times my insurance & a fair bit for cargo on top & I have an A rated Cobra parked close just in case I ever really mess up, my next goal is a Viper & guess what, I didn't wipe at gamma and I am saving for a Viper lol, I will not be ganking anyone soon with the armada I built in easy mode .

Last weekend I came into open with the knowledge that my local system had its fair share or pirates, I read it on this forum, I wanted that experience, it was a first for me.

I got pirated by a proper pirate https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=90583&page=77&p=1565498&highlight=#post1565498

That was a great experience for me, I watched the video I took & learned from it, I might even go into open tonight for a bit despite this thread, I fancy getting pirated again , can you explain to me how your experience of the game would be better if I do not have the choice to play in open tonight, ignoring the fact you might pirate me in an hour or two, how does excluding me from open because if forced I would pick Mobius (the group I currently play in the least of all 3 groups).

Please explain to me why I have to play this game in another way now because you don't like it, I bought it like this 6 months ago it was a lot of money for me, I did some research first, it would appear others made assumptions.

Again I ask, why do I now need to have to do 3 times the work to play the same game as you and how is that fair, why should you not want the opportunity to pirate me (or PK me if you are a psycho) and why.

Would anyone who has posted that FD need to spilt the game in two or it will fail in a year like to explain to me how splitting the game in two (doubling the infrastructure cost) would add to the longevity of a game that is not subscription based, I would have thought increasing the costs might detract from the budget FD have improve what we have and meet their initial goals.

 

[Driver]

They will never do a "On Its Own" Open server due to the costs involved in making a single server for people who wish to play Open only, especially after they have already released the game in this format. As they have clearly stated that the MODES will not be seperated and also that they had sold 300,000 copies of the game so far, maybe more by now, and the server which they are running the game on at the moment, P2P system, it would be foolish of them to make stupid changes like that when they may only have 1 third of players using the server.

Snotface,

I would totally support FD adding a separate Open Only server as a paid for expansion. My one requirement would be that once a player chose that server, they could not come back to the Open/Group/Solo server.

We should brainstorm this right now.

FD could do it as a kickstarter. If enough players were financially supporting it, then they'd be good to go.

This new game, you cant call it Elite. Hmm, call it "Mundane" as it would be the opposite of Elite. Once FD adds in all of the desired EVE game mechanisms, Mundane becomes an even better title.

WE NEED IDEAS HERE!

What would we lose? Less Pew-Pews in Open? More semi-honorable pirates?

 

[snowleopard]

people will cheat in every game if they wish. In Elite they are only cheating themselves. Fine they can give themselves 5 billion credits, have the best ships and even make themselves elite, but like all cheats they get bored fast and go away.

Absolutely, the people respond to incentives. Right now there is no incentive to cheat so it does not happen en masse, but if the solo was separated from open this incentive would appear because one of the choices was taken away from them.

 

[Amaze]

How else are you suppose to prevent someone from influencing a system if you can't see them? How is someone suppose to stop that trade run to the opposing faction if you can't see them?? How are you people so ignorantly blind to this issue?

How you going to prevent someone from influencing a system even if everyone is in open but you can only see a small % of them
because of the p2p matchmaking?

How you going to prevent all those in other countries and other timezones, or when you are asleep?

With thousands running trade routes and the absolute max you can see is 32, how do you interact with the others you don't see?

 

[Jockey79]

Oh you mean with the offline mode that was suppose to be implemented which they pullled out from under you guys at the last second screwing over the open mode?

Well, let me put this into a 2 part answer...

1) I'm not one of the '84 bunch... I was 5 years old in 1984, if it wasn't jelly and ice cream or a Kinder Egg - I didn't want to know
2) I didn't even know about an "Offline" option until it had been pulled

So, I wasn't bothered either way on that front. I knew about solo / group and open - that is all I knew BEFORE I paid for the game - that is what I got AFTER paying for the game.

I'm quite the happy punter
(I've also bought paint jobs... 2 days after asking the wife, what sort of "sad git" buys ship paints when you cannot even see your ship.... - My life, answered my question, I'm that "sad git" )

I'm still waiting for you solo fly boys to actually come up with one viable reason why open mode shouldn't be separate from solo? None of you have put fourth any valid argument except for spewing, "Because I play how I want" or "PvP griefers".

We don't need to provide any argument - we are not the ones complaining for the current system to change - and so far, the ONLY point being made is, griefers don't have enough targets (which is kind of the point of the system - as proven by Drivers quote and my wall of info)


The onus is on those who want solo and group play removing / nerfing / hindering etc.. to provide the discussion points - while leaving out the cheaters / exploiting / scared insults out if it - as that just undermines the argument to start with.

Us solo / group "flyboys" have no need to argue anything right now - we have what we want.

 

[Jockey79]

Snotface,

I would totally support FD adding a separate Open Only server as a paid for expansion. My one requirement would be that once a player chose that server, they could not come back to the Open/Group/Solo server.

We should brainstorm this right now.

FD could do it as a kickstarter. If enough players were financially supporting it, then they'd be good to go.

This new game, you cant call it Elite. Hmm, call it "Mundane" as it would be the opposite of Elite. Once FD adds in all of the desired EVE game mechanisms, Mundane becomes an even better title.

WE NEED IDEAS HERE!

What would we lose? Less Pew-Pews in Open? More semi-honorable pirates?

OH !!!

Elite: Griefer Wars.

£4.99 / month

All content from Elite: Dangerous + early access to patches and content. Plus better Dev interaction and feed back.
Special sub section on the forums.
Help decide the future of Elite: Dangerous and Elite: Griefer Wars.
Ship decal bonus for being part of Elite: Griefer Wars

(In plain English - name the test server "Griefer Wars" and charge people to play on it, but give them a decal for being gullible )

 

[DarkWalker]

How else are you suppose to prevent someone from influencing a system if you can't see them? How is someone suppose to stop that trade run to the opposing faction if you can't see them?? How are you people so ignorantly blind to this issue?

Because, for many people, it's not an issue at all, but rather a benefit?

Playing in the same galaxy is what allows us to change modes in order to play in the way we want when we want. It's what allows someone that primarily plays solo to jump to open or a group to play with friends, or someone that usually plays open to jump to solo when not feeling talkative. This freedom to choose any matchmaking mode at any time is, for part of the players, among the best features of the game, and judging by how Frontier advertises it (most recently in an interview about the 1.1 patch) they seem to think so too.

 

[Dave1235]

And finally, somewhere off in the distance, locked into one of those "pending game content star systems" we can't enter, are Thargoid aliens. Eventually they will start showing up in human space. When they do, we'll probably need the cooperation of the entire player base to deal with it, helping out no matter what mode we're in. It would make no sense to have two separate versions of the Thargoid invasion happening at the same time on two isolated versions of the Galaxy.

We're all in this together, even when we're not entirely together in the same instances. The Thargoids won't care what mode we're in.

Oh I can't wait, that hadn't even crossed my mind, FD have said they could "tweak" the AI and they could be really bad, I expect they are saving that for the Thargoids, sadly I think they will save them for quite a while.

 

[snotface]

Snotface,

I would totally support FD adding a separate Open Only server as a paid for expansion. My one requirement would be that once a player chose that server, they could not come back to the Open/Group/Solo server.

We should brainstorm this right now.

FD could do it as a kickstarter. If enough players were financially supporting it, then they'd be good to go.

This new game, you cant call it Elite. Hmm, call it "Mundane" as it would be the opposite of Elite. Once FD adds in all of the desired EVE game mechanisms, Mundane becomes an even better title.

WE NEED IDEAS HERE!

What would we lose? Less Pew-Pews in Open? More semi-honorable pirates?

I would like to discuss this subject.

Now lets look at the possible costs involved in running a good quality server, that's tapped into a high quality pip for internet access.

I'm just gestermating here. The server costs approximately £50,000, take in Internet costs another £10,000 a year, electricity e.t.c you could be looking quite a few pounds.

Adding a second dedicated server for ONE SINGLE MODE. Another £50,000 for server, Extra costs for pip as the internet band width will need to be faster for both up and download, due to 2 servers now. This could push price up to £12-15k per year. Electricity, cost of extra staff to maintain other server. Also FD will have to know how many people will be playing on this new server because if its just going to be new players and PK Squad then thats going to be a very empty server. FD say that there are 300,000 people playing Elite, and TBH only 0.001% use the forum. Do you really think most of them care about open and solo/group?

If people want a dedicated server for open I cannot see why FD couldn't do a special p2p server for those players until they have enough players. I think the £17 million they made will be used to keep this server going and develop the game, they will not waist it on more servers

Some how we as players think that companies make servers available to us for free. Its clear that they do not, and if you have ever run a server for yourself or friends you know the costs just for a game which could only have 200-500 people maximum playing. It is nice that they give people a voice on forums, but you have to remember this is not the normal PK fest game which a lot of players believe it should be.

 

[snotface]

Absolutely, the people respond to incentives. Right now there is no incentive to cheat so it does not happen en masse, but if the solo was separated from open this incentive would appear because one of the choices was taken away from them.

You are mistaken my friend. People do not cheat in Elite because what is the point. You cannot finish the game by using cheats, you gain no real advantage by cheating, the weapons used do not have differences like swords and other stuff. A ships shield has life points, but the weapon attacking it has fixed points which cannot be changed.

Cheating in Elite is not like cheating in WOW or other online games. The only advantage a cheat will have is that he will be able to buy things faster. Remember the player who got 5 billion because of a bug, I bet he has the top ship, top weapons and still has a ship which can be matched by everybody else. Cheating in this game gets you nothing, pointless cheating.

If you look at the cash bug, did FD look into every body's money, do a wipe, well do anything? No... The reason for this is exactly why cheating is pointless. And if you do get to Elite first, they will check your saves to see if you have used the exploit, cheated in the game, then when it comes out you win nothing.

This games about exploring the game and having fun. Cheats just want end products and completing games fast, and this game cannot be completed

 

[Jockey79]

I would like to discuss this subject.

Now lets look at the possible costs involved in running a good quality server, that's tapped into a high quality pip for internet access.

I'm just gestermating here. The server costs approximately £50,000, take in Internet costs another £10,000 a year, electricity e.t.c you could be looking quite a few pounds.

Adding a second dedicated server for ONE SINGLE MODE. Another £50,000 for server, Extra costs for pip as the internet band width will need to be faster for both up and download, due to 2 servers now. This could push price up to £12-15k per year. Electricity, cost of extra staff to maintain other server. Also FD will have to know how many people will be playing on this new server because if its just going to be new players and PK Squad then thats going to be a very empty server. FD say that there are 300,000 people playing Elite, and TBH only 0.001% use the forum. Do you really think most of them care about open and solo/group?

If people want a dedicated server for open I cannot see why FD couldn't do a special p2p server for those players until they have enough players. I think the £17 million they made will be used to keep this server going and develop the game, they will not waist it on more servers

Some how we as players think that companies make servers available to us for free. Its clear that they do not, and if you have ever run a server for yourself or friends you know the costs just for a game which could only have 200-500 people maximum playing. It is nice that they give people a voice on forums, but you have to remember this is not the normal PK fest game which a lot of players believe it should be.

Right, I've bold and underlined (plus used red) to highlight one part (hate to be accused of misquoting again) I'd like to address....

Under the current system - that bit in red can be done now.

FD know if people change modes (hence Race to Elite rules). So they could just add a matchmaking option and call it "PvP mode" (or whatever), question is, can they remove access to it automoaticly should you use another mode? - the only thing is, you still have 400 billion star systems to play in - so anyone could play in the PvP mode and still be quite safe on the rim of civilised space (bit like now with open)

 

[snotface]

Right, I've bold and underlined (plus used red) to highlight one part (hate to be accused of misquoting again) I'd like to address....

Under the current system - that bit in red can be done now.

FD know if people change modes (hence Race to Elite rules). So they could just add a matchmaking option and call it "PvP mode" (or whatever), question is, can they remove access to it automoaticly should you use another mode? - the only thing is, you still have 400 billion star systems to play in - so anyone could play in the PvP mode and still be quite safe on the rim of civilised space (bit like now with open)

As I stated it would be nice, but the player base would have to pay for the change as FD will not do it just to please a few player on this forum. If those few players stumped you the full cost of a new server and every cost involved to maintain that server then I cannot see a problem. But the issus will still continue as those players with their now private server will still come on this forum crying about nobody playing on their server or that they do not see anybody else online due to there being over a billion star systems to explore. Unless you give players a bubble to play in which only have 100 star systems, making the game different so everybody can see everybody in the same star system and all the rubbish which will have to go with it. I wonder how many PVP players would pay about £1,000 a year for subscription to this private Elite server?

Remember they will have to change all the game mechanic's just to make all the players happy which includes being able to see every player in the star system they are currently in.

FD are not stupid people so this pvp mode (called OPEN btw) will never change

 

[Jockey79]

I wonder how many PVP players would pay about £1,000 a year for subscription to this private Elite server?

For the love of God, please don't do that !!!!

Do you know how heart breaking it is to wipe beer off my monitor and keyboard ?

I mean, come on - give a guy a warning first, beer out of my nose being sprayed around my kitchen is not fun.
It's going to take days to get the smell out now.

Though, by the looks of it, my sinuses needed the clear out - so, thank you... I suppose

 

[Caboose187]

I for one have not once stated or asked for the open mode to be changed into an MMO type gameplay. All I've stated is that each mode should be it's own separate server. I am totally fine with the 32 player limit in open as it still gives me a chance to prevent another player or players from changing the outcome and influence on a system whereas solo mode players have nothing to fear and I cannot prevent them from changing the systems outcome. That is the part that you solo players fail to comprehend and understand. If FD can operate one server I'm sure they can add two more.

 

[snowleopard]

You are mistaken my friend. People do not cheat in Elite because what is the point. You cannot finish the game by using cheats, you gain no real advantage by cheating, the weapons used do not have differences like swords and other stuff. A ships shield has life points, but the weapon attacking it has fixed points which cannot be changed.

Cheating in Elite is not like cheating in WOW or other online games. The only advantage a cheat will have is that he will be able to buy things faster. Remember the player who got 5 billion because of a bug, I bet he has the top ship, top weapons and still has a ship which can be matched by everybody else. Cheating in this game gets you nothing, pointless cheating.

If you look at the cash bug, did FD look into every body's money, do a wipe, well do anything? No... The reason for this is exactly why cheating is pointless. And if you do get to Elite first, they will check your saves to see if you have used the exploit, cheated in the game, then when it comes out you win nothing.

This games about exploring the game and having fun. Cheats just want end products and completing games fast, and this game cannot be completed

Yes exactly There is no incentive to cheat currently so there are no benefits for doing so. But with the locked-out open mode incentive appears, exactly because its now locked. Forbidden fruit, so to speak Also, just to point out, technically blocking p2p ports cannot be legally defined as "cheating" as its there is nothing in the EULA/TOS regarding network setup, its only feels like cheating and even then only when you cut your p2p mid-combat.

 

[Zenicetus]

I for one have not once stated or asked for the open mode to be changed into an MMO type gameplay. All I've stated is that each mode should be it's own separate server. I am totally fine with the 32 player limit in open as it still gives me a chance to prevent another player or players from changing the outcome and influence on a system whereas solo mode players have nothing to fear and I cannot prevent them from changing the systems outcome. That is the part that you solo players fail to comprehend and understand. If FD can operate one server I'm sure they can add two more.

With all due respect, you still don't understand the network model. We're not on one server. It's not a client/server model, it's a distributed P2P matchmaking model with the background simulation (the same one for everyone) fed to all possible P2P instances in the game, whatever mode they're in.

They can't add one or two more servers and give you what you want, because the network doesn't run that way.

 

[Jockey79]

I for one have not once stated or asked for the open mode to be changed into an MMO type gameplay. All I've stated is that each mode should be it's own separate server. I am totally fine with the 32 player limit in open as it still gives me a chance to prevent another player or players from changing the outcome and influence on a system whereas solo mode players have nothing to fear and I cannot prevent them from changing the systems outcome. That is the part that you solo players fail to comprehend and understand. If FD can operate one server I'm sure they can add two more.

People who use solo DO "get" and "understand" what you are saying.

Your the one missing the point.

If 1000 people are fighting over a system (regardless of modes) - you can only ever see 31 other people.
Out of that 31, you do not know who is working with you, or against you - how do you know who to help and who to attack?

Also, what if you are on the losing side? what if, out of the 1000, 800 players are working towards the goal you do not want? Then what?
You are 1 player, you can interdict 1 player... what about the 799 left? of which if you are lucky you see 31 of them.

The numbers do not add up for large scale plans and strategies.

 

[Driver]

I for one have not once stated or asked for the open mode to be changed into an MMO type gameplay. All I've stated is that each mode should be it's own separate server. I am totally fine with the 32 player limit in open as it still gives me a chance to prevent another player or players from changing the outcome and influence on a system whereas solo mode players have nothing to fear and I cannot prevent them from changing the systems outcome. That is the part that you solo players fail to comprehend and understand. If FD can operate one server I'm sure they can add two more.

I think that you are right in that FD could add more P2P networls. But why should they? Who would pay the additional expense?

I don't know if you caught one of my previous posts where I said that FD should do a kickstarter to pay for an official pew-pew server. While I was being snarky, I was also serious in that might be the best way to do it.

My thinking is like this:
I was willing to put up several hundred US dollars to help finance ED as it currently exists. If you want something different, then put up your own money. You cannot use any of mine.

The game works fairy well, the multiplayer is being worked on. It is only a few malcontents that want it changed. Maybe I am selfish, but I am not willing to have FD dilute their resources to make the pew-pews and the social engineers happier.

Note that I am not being snarky: I am sincerely sorry that you do not find as much joy as I do in playing ED.