Fix Alt F4 in Patch 1.1 please

[flosculus]

I just want it fixed, I don't care how. I want an engagement to end with either, I kill them, they kill me, or they escape. If that means balancing the encounter by giving the target more options for escaping, so be it.
I admit that Elite is different to EVE in one regard. CONCORD. It is impossible to kill someone in high security space without being killed yourself. However, there is yet another balancing act involved there. CONCORD does not "protect", it punishes. If the innocent victim cannot be saved in time, they die, but the attacker is also guaranteed to die. In fact, it is a bannable exploit to successfully evade CONCORD.

The difference with Elite, is that there is no high security space, while in EVE, traders can trade relatively confidently that no one is going to want to attack them (although it does happen on rare occasions).
I don't want traders to stop trading, in fact even I occasionally think killing them is too easy. I just want a solution that puts as much effort into punishing loggers as it does to punish PKers. As it currently stands there is no deterrent to either, we both want something to stop the other, so I am trying in vain to urge everyone to urge FDEV to resolve this issue with the highest of priorities,

 

[Mohrgan]

The gist I get of this is, PvP is only satisfying when you get to pop someone's ship. It's not the thrill of battle, it's not the challenge of a good dog-fight, it's not the satisfaction of besting your opponent, it's the sound of the pop, and the knowledge that you just cost that guy a day of playing.
:
Do I understand you correctly? Because if it were any of those other things, then the old Logoffski wouldn't trouble you. Chasing someone off the server should be a win. Looking for a challenge? You'd square of against another PvPer. Piracy? Then you wouldn't want to destroy that ship and loose all of that potential cargo.
:
No, simple PK'ing is entirely to get the satisfaction or setting someone back, and enjoying the anguish you're sure you cause. You are not fooling anyone.

 

[flosculus]

The gist I get of this is, PvP is only satisfying when you get to pop someone's ship. It's not the thrill of battle, it's not the challenge of a good dog-fight, it's not the satisfaction of besting your opponent, it's the sound of the pop, and the knowledge that you just cost that guy a day of playing.
:
Do I understand you correctly? Because if it were any of those other things, then the old Logoffski wouldn't trouble you. Chasing someone off the server should be a win. Looking for a challenge? You'd square of against another PvPer. Piracy? Then you wouldn't want to destroy that ship and loose all of that potential cargo.
:
No, simple PK'ing is entirely to get the satisfaction or setting someone back, and enjoying the anguish you're sure you cause. You are not fooling anyone.

While taking into account everything I said in my previous comment, everything you just said is 100% correct.

 

[OneAmongOthers]

While taking into account everything I said in my previous comment, everything you just said is 100% correct.

If you ant PvP go find another game. Honestly player interaction to me means not at each other throat. We work together. Otherwise I avoid you and stick to solo.

 

[Dogoncrook]

Except while excessive PK'ing is possible thanks to the poor game design (and imbalance), combat logging (killing the ED process, pulling the plug or any other form of bypassing the standard 15s counter) is purely an exploit. I think it's quite clear which one is the worse.

The funniest bit is an on the forums where the cheats are being disseminated every one refers to combat logging as the most effective cheat currently possible because they tone down the others so they are not as easy to detect. It's being disseminated on cheat forums, by cheaters. There are other cheats too and it will surely become more common when people start saying "well they don't do anything about combat logging so I'm just evening the playing field" prepare yourself for aimbots and infinishields because those are already a thing.

 

[OneAmongOthers]

The funniest bit is an on the forums where the cheats are being disseminated every one refers to combat logging as the most effective cheat currently possible because they tone down the others so they are not as easy to detect. It's being disseminated on cheat forums, by cheaters. There are other cheats too and it will surely become more common when people start saying "well they don't do anything about combat logging so I'm just evening the playing field" prepare yourself for aimbots and infinishields because those are already a thing.

Aim bots? You mean lock on targets? also Shield cells and other defensive modules are getting changed in the next update.

 

[Mohrgan]

While taking into account everything I said in my previous comment, everything you just said is 100% correct.

In wasn't directing that at you specifically, but rather the PK'er crowd as a whole. Have you ever heard the song: 'You re so vain'?
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Until there is ample punishment for popping ships, I say, the Logoffski stays. For many it's the only defense to being griefed. I don't trade, I don't log, but I can see the traders plight. I won't be able to have a profitable time Pirating, until the traders know I'm not there to ruin them. I want them to know I'm just there to share in the spoils. PK'ers make that impossible.

 

[Dogoncrook]

If you ant PvP go find another game. Honestly player interaction to me means not at each other throat. We work together. Otherwise I avoid you and stick to solo.

Why? There is plenty of pvp action here. You basically want cheating to ruin the game so you can go into open? Just as the devs intended I'm sure.

 

[flosculus]

In wasn't directing that at you specifically, but rather the PK'er crowd as a whole. Have you ever heard the song: 'You re so vain'?
:
Until there is ample punishment for popping ships, I say, the Logoffski stays. For many it's the only defense to being griefed. I don't trade, I don't log, but I can see the traders plight. I won't be able to have a profitable time Pirating, until the traders know I'm not there to ruin them. I want them to know I'm just there to share in the spoils. PK'ers make that impossible.

You won't be able to change the PKer mentality, so there is no point trying. But instead of maintaining the status quo, why don't you propose actual solutions that serves everyone?

 

[TaoZero5]

No I don't get it, I think you should stick to solo mode for now until you have time to see your therapist. This is a game, who cares what other players are thinking. If someone is being a jerk then throw them on your ignore list and be done with it.

I'll try to explain. When someone tells me, "If you don't like what I'm doing then you go and play in Solo." then I resent (send it back) that they are trying to take my 'thing' away from me. I will not co-operate with that.
This is how it is for everyone.
I recognise that it is a waste of effort trying to control others. I apply effort to trying to control myself.

Rampant cheating and exploiting of game mechanics is bad for the long-term health of this game. People will get tired of it and they will stop playing if these issues are not addressed.

Thesis.
If, instead of trying to stop others from cheating (which others will resist) people would value honour, then there would be less cheating.
What I will do is value honour and express my ideas.

 

[Rivka]

He also said he wanted there to be scams just like in eve and he wanted an environment where people could act like a trouble makers if they choose. Your ignoring the DDFs as well. You want to see what they intended it's all there. I imagine you won't like what you see, but who knows maybe you'll be lucky and they scrap it all.

It doesn't matter anyway the proof is in the pudding. The game speaks for itself.

I've tried entirely too much to pound this concept into some people's skulls. The way Open PvP is set up in this game is a pretty fundamental declaration of how they want things to go. You don't just leave PvP in a "free for all" mode, then go "huh we expected everyone to work together with gumballs and puppydogs". It's an intrinsic design choice with a well-known outcome when it comes to multiplayer games, and had FD wanted it to go in a different direction, they would have done so early on. The existence of Solo mode pretty much proves they knew what was going to happen, and gave people the best way possible to avoid an open PvP world.

I don't consider tweaking and adding bounties and such "punishment" for PvPing. It's being done with the intent of generating new and interesting player interactions, not curbing a player's behavior. If FD wanted to curb PvP, it'd be a matter of A) publishing a EULA/ToS change declaring what forms of PvP are permissible and not, and B) building hard limits into the game itself, to prevent the unwanted PvP from occurring.

In contrast, it's pretty obvious that FD doesn't consider "combat logging" to be a valid play mechanic. They've already taken steps to hard curb it, my eliminating the ability to kill the game from the escape menu during combat. My hopeful side is saying that the only reason FD hasn't made a firm statement as of yet, is that they are gathering data on just how people are accomplishing these combat avoidance exploits, in order to build in proper countermeasures.

 

[OneAmongOthers]

Why? There is plenty of pvp action here. You basically want cheating to ruin the game so you can go into open? Just as the devs intended I'm sure.

Its not cheating when there is no gain. Seriously you get absolutely nothing from killing someone besides an explosion. NOTHING. Look I understand its cheap that players drop like that, but there is nothing they can really do about it. Like others have stated due to how this game is done in multiplayer the task is probably so monumental its just not worth development time. So move on and accept it. Other things the developers can be working on besides some way to further pvp.

 

[Cathalo]

The gist I get of this is, PvP is only satisfying when you get to pop someone's ship. It's not the thrill of battle, it's not the challenge of a good dog-fight, it's not the satisfaction of besting your opponent, it's the sound of the pop, and the knowledge that you just cost that guy a day of playing.
:
Do I understand you correctly? Because if it were any of those other things, then the old Logoffski wouldn't trouble you. Chasing someone off the server should be a win. Looking for a challenge? You'd square of against another PvPer. Piracy? Then you wouldn't want to destroy that ship and loose all of that potential cargo.
:
No, simple PK'ing is entirely to get the satisfaction or setting someone back, and enjoying the anguish you're sure you cause. You are not fooling anyone.

This is wrong on so many levels. If you can't understand the way this game was designed let me explain it to you. This game functions in a way where professions are dependent on other professions. The trader is dependent on bounty hunters to help keep piracy in check, the pirates are dependent on traders so that they have something to pirate, the bounty hunters are dependent on pirates and murderers in the game so they can hunt them down and earn a living.
The side of this that you're not seeing is that bounty hunters get screwed by Mr. Logoffski just as much if not more than Pk'ers do because the bounty hunter MUST pop that ship if he wants to claim his bounty. So, if I'm out hunting in my Python and I run into a good paying mark, I will first have to interdict him (which can be extremely costly to do in a Python) then I must risk further damage to my hull (again, very costly) while bringing Mr. Logoffski to justice. If Mr. Logoffski decides he will simply log off before I make the killing blow then I'm out several million credits with no bounty collected, all because Mr. Logoffski exploited the game and logged out in the middle of combat.
This cannot be an intended design choice, and I have a good feeling it will be fixed very soon for the health of the game.

 

[flosculus]

This is wrong on so many levels. If you can't understand the way this game was designed let me explain it to you. This game functions in a way where professions are dependent on other professions. The trader is dependent on bounty hunters to help keep piracy in check, the pirates are dependent on traders so that they have something to pirate, the bounty hunters are dependent on pirates and murderers in the game so they can hunt them down and earn a living.
The side of this that you're not seeing is that bounty hunters get screwed by Mr. Logoffski just as much if not more than Pk'ers do because the bounty hunter MUST pop that ship if he wants to claim his bounty. So, if I'm out hunting in my Python and I run into a good paying mark, I will first have to interdict him (which can be extremely costly to do in a Python) then I must risk further damage to my hull (again, very costly) while bringing Mr. Logoffski to justice. If Mr. Logoffski decides he will simply log off before I make the killing blow then I'm out several million credits with no bounty collected, all because Mr. Logoffski exploited the game and logged out in the middle of combat.
This cannot be an intended design choice, and I have a good feeling it will be fixed very soon for the health of the game.

I don't think he was arguing against there being problem with logging off during a meaningful encounter. He was trying to dissolve justification he thinks people use for killing for the sake of killing. While actually no honest killroy would even try to justify it.

 

[Dogoncrook]

Its not cheating when there is no gain. Seriously you get absolutely nothing from killing someone besides an explosion. NOTHING. Look I understand its cheap that players drop like that, but there is nothing they can really do about it. Like others have stated due to how this game is done in multiplayer the task is probably so monumental its just not worth development time. So move on and accept it. Other things the developers can be working on besides some way to further pvp.

Others keep saying that, and I'm not gonna get into details but it's false. They also disable crc checking so people can very easily modify the client and cheat. Currently they are not actively looking at anything going by the people that are writing these exploits.

It's not just combat logging so ignore that. If they can't detect that then there are no cheats they can detect, so RIP elite. goon squad and eve mentality are the least of your concerns.

I can't link it as I'm sure it would get deleted so Google it but trust me combat logging is the tip of this iceberg.

 

[flosculus]

Whoever thought of using p2p deserves a slap ...

 

[Cathalo]

I'll try to explain. When someone tells me, "If you don't like what I'm doing then you go and play in Solo." then I resent (send it back) that they are trying to take my 'thing' away from me. I will not co-operate with that.
This is how it is for everyone.
I recognise that it is a waste of effort trying to control others. I apply effort to trying to control myself.

You're still not making much sense here. It's pretty simple, if you choose to play in open you're choosing to play with other players. Some of them will be like minded and some of them may see and play the game differently than you. This does not make them worse or better than you, they're just different. If someone attacks you for no reason and blows up your ship, well that is his idea of how to play the game. It is no more or less valid than yours as long as both players are playing within the constructs of the game as intended by the developers. Cheating is not intended gameplay, cheating ruins the fun for everyone and exploits like combat logging need to be fixed.

Thesis.
If, instead of trying to stop others from cheating (which others will resist) people would value honour, then there would be less cheating.
What I will do is value honour and express my ideas.

That's nice if we lived in a perfect world, we don't. We're playing a game and if you allow cheating in your game then people are going to cheat, especially considering the anonymous nature of online gaming. Its up to the developers to fix the exploits and bugs in their game. Even in 1995 when online gaming was just starting to become popular, combat logging was not possible in most of those games and for good reason.

 

[kurush]

Whoever thought of using p2p deserves a slap ...

p2p works just fine for the right kind of people. Can't wait until others finally head the other way

 

[crushdepth]

Except while excessive PK'ing is possible thanks to the poor game design (and imbalance), combat logging (killing the ED process, pulling the plug or any other form of bypassing the standard 15s counter) is purely an exploit. I think it's quite clear which one is the worse.

Except the PVP heroes aren't just whining about disconnects, they are crying about the 15 second logoff timer. The alleged cable-yanking argument gets trotted out as soon as anyone points out that the timer is a dev-sanctioned FEATURE of the game.

 

[Cathalo]

I don't think he was arguing against there being problem with logging off during a meaningful encounter. He was trying to dissolve justification he thinks people use for killing for the sake of killing. While actually no honest killroy would even try to justify it.

Players who kill for the sake of killing are part of the game. They are my content. I get to hunt them down and blow them out of space! Except for when they combat log.