FD just Nuked loads of trade routes!

[Zanten]

I'll be the first to say that Elite is pretty thin on the ground when it comes to content, but I don't think the solution to that is to add more "push button get candy" style activities.

The whole crux of the current thread argument is that Frontier took away an easily repeatable, mind numbing activity people were using to get bigger ships. It's a pure example of the conditioning I was talking about before. Rat mashes button, gets food. You want to keep the rat mashing the button, you space the food rewards out over time. Elite version: PLayer hammers the same monotonous trade route over and over. Gets bigger ship "reward" at increasing larger interval. The failure of that model of gameplay happens when you find out there isn't another proverbial "button" to mash after you get your bigger reward ship.


Contrast with the "journey" approach, you aren't just monotonously repeating the same event over and over again. Trader finds a good route, runs it a couple times, moves on to the next one. In moving on, he finds a really nifty looking system, and decides to explore it out. After exploring some, he finds a great mining spot, rigs up, and does some mining. A pirate comes by and blasts him, so he uses what wealth he had to fit up a hunting ship and go bounty hunting.....THAT is an example of the "journey".

Here's another analogy I think fits. We have two really smart rats in a lab. Rat A, he just wants cheese. You put him in a maze with cheese at the end, he'll run the maze to get his goal. He really doesn't like the maze. Given a choice, he'd make his "maze" a straight corridor to run down to get his cheese. Rab B, well, he really likes running mazes. The cheese reward at the end is just icing on top. In his ideal world, the maze would be as complex as possible.

"Grind" style players are Rat A, and "Journey" style players are Rat B. The maze is Elite gameplay. Cheese at the end, bigger ship.

The problem is that their solution just seems to make the maze in question bigger, rather than more interesting. In the case of trading, do you know exactly what is usually required to 'Find A Good Route' as a trader? Speaking as a trader, the solution is finding a metric ton of bad routes first, because the mechanics in place to track routes, or figure out new ones, requires essentially visiting many, (sometimes dozens) of stations and keeping an eye on the outstanding supply/demand at every single one. And that's even when you don't run into outright bugs, with stations listing a certain commodity as an export not carrying it at all. Now, don't get me wrong, in the early days I enjoyed it because I was seeing new sights... but there are only so many planet and star models to go around, and it doesn't take very long before the new places I visit start looking suspiciously like the old places. And honestly, it wouldn't even bother me if there was at least an in-game mechanic to 'tag' specific commodity prices at a specific station and view that tagged info when I'm at another station, an in-game trading log if you will that I could consult from my comfy piloting seat. When i find myself having to leave the game in order to record or consult trading info, it plays havoc on the sense of immersion. =P In any case, it's precisely why traders run the same routes often, because finding new ones can be a colossal, and unnecessarily clunky, pain in the butt at the moment.

And mining. Dear God, mining. x_x I know that some people do enjoy it, but creeping a ship forward a minimum thrust to collect this tiny little canister over and over and over again with my scoop... getting anywhere with mining automatically requires massive repetition, and largely spending your day looking at a giant space rock.

At this point, the only two saving graces keeping me playing are these; 1) I like friendly player interaction, (which I'll be joining Mobius for, because emphasis on the FRIENDLY) and therefore enjoy amicably chatting with pilots and talking shop, as it were, about loadouts, swapping stories, etc, etc. Seriously, this is a game that is crying out for an in-game Space Bar, because right now there isn't really a safe in-game place to meet new people and chat without having to eagle-eye your surroundings for some jerk loaded up with dumbfires. And 2) I might do a bit of goal-driven exploration, such as center of the galaxy, horsehead nebula, etc. Only reason I'm holding off on that one is, well, obviously any chance for interaction flies out the window when you're that far out, and this kind of stuff will likely be my final thing to do before I take a long-term break from the game. x3

 

[manny72]

Really dont know what the complaints are about. I am trading quite nicely. Main thing I noticed trading wise is all the seeking luxuries are gone.

 

[s0x867zrg]

My modest type 6 trade routes dry up after 3 runs. This is . Now I can't even make 1 million an hour doing mind numbing crap. This really really really sucks.

Yes! Having bought 100s of tonnes of whatever, they should be more grateful!

 

[NailZ]

So as everyone putting there boot in & making daft quotes about dodge vipers & rubbish, I dident want the pvp crap done that in other games Meany meany other year ago in another games so elite come back around great came be a miner & trader so iam a kickstart backer game comes out they brake mining because of a bug ok I'll move to a trader 10-12weeks later brake trading, maybe it just me but I don't want to pvp & that's my option but now both have been taken away due to who knows what (14yr old I want I want ! Ers) moaning coz they can't do there GTA crap & linear missions with non-imagination, its now turning into a kindergarten of 9-14yr old game

umwhattheheckisthatpunctuationlessstreamofletterssupposedtorepresentohyeahhesaidsomethingaboutkindergarten

 

[Kancro Vantas]

Really dont know what the complaints are about. I am trading quite nicely. Main thing I noticed trading wise is all the seeking luxuries are gone.

Same here...I feel I might not be looking right or probably teh fact that I ahvent repeat yet the same route tonight..but at least 5 of my markets that I've been to, all of them are in line with my recorded prices.

Then again, I trade for pleasure..I already have the ship I want and I am not carrying much, just 64 tons.But that's good enough to keep me afloat and bouncing.

Also, my trade network is all in very low traffic systems...some with 4-8 ships in 24hrs to more "crowded" with 200 ships a day.

 

[Cmdr Andy B]

The problem is that their solution just seems to make the maze in question bigger, rather than more interesting. In the case of trading, do you know exactly what is usually required to 'Find A Good Route' as a trader? Speaking as a trader, the solution is finding a metric ton of bad routes first, because the mechanics in place to track routes, or figure out new ones, requires essentially visiting many, (sometimes dozens) of stations and keeping an eye on the outstanding supply/demand at every single one. And that's even when you don't run into outright bugs, with stations listing a certain commodity as an export not carrying it at all. Now, don't get me wrong, in the early days I enjoyed it because I was seeing new sights... but there are only so many planet and star models to go around, and it doesn't take very long before the new places I visit start looking suspiciously like the old places. And honestly, it wouldn't even bother me if there was at least an in-game mechanic to 'tag' specific commodity prices at a specific station and view that tagged info when I'm at another station, an in-game trading log if you will that I could consult from my comfy piloting seat. When i find myself having to leave the game in order to record or consult trading info, it plays havoc on the sense of immersion. =P In any case, it's precisely why traders run the same routes often, because finding new ones can be a colossal, and unnecessarily clunky, pain in the butt at the moment.

And mining. Dear God, mining. x_x I know that some people do enjoy it, but creeping a ship forward a minimum thrust to collect this tiny little canister over and over and over again with my scoop... getting anywhere with mining automatically requires massive repetition, and largely spending your day looking at a giant space rock.

At this point, the only two saving graces keeping me playing are these; 1) I like friendly player interaction, (which I'll be joining Mobius for, because emphasis on the FRIENDLY) and therefore enjoy amicably chatting with pilots and talking shop, as it were, about loadouts, swapping stories, etc, etc. Seriously, this is a game that is crying out for an in-game Space Bar, because right now there isn't really a safe in-game place to meet new people and chat without having to eagle-eye your surroundings for some jerk loaded up with dumbfires. And 2) I might do a bit of goal-driven exploration, such as center of the galaxy, horsehead nebula, etc. Only reason I'm holding off on that one is, well, obviously any chance for interaction flies out the window when you're that far out, and this kind of stuff will likely be my final thing to do before I take a long-term break from the game. x3

without reading the whole wall of text you've written here are some pointers:

if the price is high the demand is high, if something is 500 or more credits over the galactic average then you've found what to sell at that station, now look for something that is the other end of the scale and sells for 500 credits below the average, preferably exported to an economy type that produces the first commodity.

and that's it, there is no magic trick to it just common sense, buy low and sell high and the rest is just having a look at the local systems to find the type of economies you are looking for.

 

[s0x867zrg]

without reading the whole wall of text you've written here are some pointers:

if the price is high the demand is high, if something is 500 or more credits over the galactic average then you've found what to sell at that station, now look for something that is the other end of the scale and sells for 500 credits below the average, preferably exported to an economy type that produces the first commodity.

and that's it, there is no magic trick to it just common sense, buy low and sell high and the rest is just having a look at the local systems to find the type of economies you are looking for.

I have to use my brain?

Nooooo!

 

[Space Time]

Price caps need to go with supply and demand coming in...

Most commodities I've seen have a parameter of pricing that they never come out of.

Yet if a Space Station has not gotten rid of, or has enough of something... then that price needs not to have a cap to it's up or it's down.

If ships haven't brought in enough (or any) grain in a long time, or taken away enough Bio Waste, then those prices need to continue up until they are satisfied, or down to zero costs when they are over stocked and need to get that commodity moving.

"Clogged Toilet, Bio Waste free by the ton!"

"I haven't had an apple all day, Fruit and Vegetables buying 3000 cr per ton!"

Space Time

 

[Rivka]

The problem is that their solution just seems to make the maze in question bigger, rather than more interesting. In the case of trading, do you know exactly what is usually required to 'Find A Good Route' as a trader? Speaking as a trader, the solution is finding a metric ton of bad routes first, because the mechanics in place to track routes, or figure out new ones, requires essentially visiting many, (sometimes dozens) of stations and keeping an eye on the outstanding supply/demand at every single one. And that's even when you don't run into outright bugs, with stations listing a certain commodity as an export not carrying it at all. Now, don't get me wrong, in the early days I enjoyed it because I was seeing new sights... but there are only so many planet and star models to go around, and it doesn't take very long before the new places I visit start looking suspiciously like the old places. And honestly, it wouldn't even bother me if there was at least an in-game mechanic to 'tag' specific commodity prices at a specific station and view that tagged info when I'm at another station, an in-game trading log if you will that I could consult from my comfy piloting seat. When i find myself having to leave the game in order to record or consult trading info, it plays havoc on the sense of immersion. =P In any case, it's precisely why traders run the same routes often, because finding new ones can be a colossal, and unnecessarily clunky, pain in the butt at the moment.

And mining. Dear God, mining. x_x I know that some people do enjoy it, but creeping a ship forward a minimum thrust to collect this tiny little canister over and over and over again with my scoop... getting anywhere with mining automatically requires massive repetition, and largely spending your day looking at a giant space rock.

At this point, the only two saving graces keeping me playing are these; 1) I like friendly player interaction, (which I'll be joining Mobius for, because emphasis on the FRIENDLY) and therefore enjoy amicably chatting with pilots and talking shop, as it were, about loadouts, swapping stories, etc, etc. Seriously, this is a game that is crying out for an in-game Space Bar, because right now there isn't really a safe in-game place to meet new people and chat without having to eagle-eye your surroundings for some jerk loaded up with dumbfires. And 2) I might do a bit of goal-driven exploration, such as center of the galaxy, horsehead nebula, etc. Only reason I'm holding off on that one is, well, obviously any chance for interaction flies out the window when you're that far out, and this kind of stuff will likely be my final thing to do before I take a long-term break from the game. x3

I agree, complexity just for the sake of being complex is a bad way to game design. Trading is rough right now, everything in Elite is pretty rough. Solid foundations, now they just need to be built on.

Ideally, trading shouldn't be an entirely passive activity. This is up to Frontier to build, but knowing more than just supply/demand numbers should benefit you.

Example: You see a GalNet notice about immigrants flooding to Y station. Well, Y station is obviously going to need more food, so it might be a good idea to speculate a little and haul some food over there. Since everyone and their cousin knows that, you think further..well, if they're leaving X for Y, then X is going to have a labor shortage. Maybe X will be a good market for slaves and robotics. If this is a refugee migration, I bet station Y is going to need medicines and clothing too. Maybe weapons, so the police can deal with the sudden surge of lawlessness a huge group of people brings....

THAT is the kind of trading that Frontier should be driving for in Elite, not just "buy low sell high cuz the numbers say so". The above example is trading via the "journey" mechanic that's been discussed, while "buy low sell high" type trading is just mindless grinding that nobody enjoys.

 

[Zanten]

without reading the whole wall of text you've written here are some pointers:

if the price is high the demand is high, if something is 500 or more credits over the galactic average then you've found what to sell at that station, now look for something that is the other end of the scale and sells for 500 credits below the average, preferably exported to an economy type that produces the first commodity.

and that's it, there is no magic trick to it just common sense, buy low and sell high and the rest is just having a look at the local systems to find the type of economies you are looking for.

Yes, I am aware of which commodities to look for, the prices to compare, etc, I've done it several times, and worked up to a decent, mid-tier route I'm content with. And while the influence of surrounding systems does require you to be 'on-the-scene' to assess supply and demand, as an Extraction economy might not have as high a demand for, say, Mineral Extractors as you'd have hoped due to being supplied by surrounding systems, as I mentioned in the wall of text you didn't read, I don't actually mind that kind of hunting except for one sticking point. (Admittedly, when i said 'dozens of bad routes,' I was thinking of the early days in my wee little hauler, when I couldn't seem to actually buy or acquire trading data on most systems without visiting them directly, meaning I had no idea what kind of an economy a given star had... or if it even HAD an economy. With any luck, it would be easier now that I'm seeing a lot more options to view economy types in unexplored regions.)

Anyway, my one sticking point being that they didn't bother to include so much as an in-game notepad to scribble in interesting prices. Find a system offering a good price on Tobacco? Minimize game, wait for inevitable mid-range computer to grumble a little, scribble all relevant info into my open Notepad program, re-open game. That or keep a pen and paper handy, because... um... space paper. o.o And, sure, if you like using a pen and paper, more power to you.

I don't need a giant, flashing arrow pointing at the monies, and the excitement of finding a good route can be rewarding. However, I would actually like a means of recording any and all information I find relevant (as in I manually 'mark' it or write it in,) in-game, rather than using a third party utility.

 

[Zanten]

I agree, complexity just for the sake of being complex is a bad way to game design. Trading is rough right now, everything in Elite is pretty rough. Solid foundations, now they just need to be built on.

Ideally, trading shouldn't be an entirely passive activity. This is up to Frontier to build, but knowing more than just supply/demand numbers should benefit you.

Example: You see a GalNet notice about immigrants flooding to X station. Well, X station is obviously going to need more food, so it might be a good idea to speculate a little and haul some food over there. Since everyone and their cousin knows that, you think further..well, if they're leaving X for Y, then X is going to have a labor shortage. Maybe X will be a good market for slaves and robotics. If this is a refugee migration, I bet station Y is going to need medicines and clothing too. Maybe weapons, so the police can deal with the sudden surge of lawlessness a huge group of people brings....

THAT is the kind of trading that Frontier should be driving for in Elite, not just "buy low sell high cuz the numbers say so". The above example is trading via the "journey" mechanic that's been discussed, while "buy low sell high" type trading is just mindless grinding that nobody enjoys.

Agreed. ^_^ And with any luck, they shall implement means for entrepreneurial players to sniff out stellar deals without opting for 'Buckshot Station Visits' tactics. In any case, given I already have an Anaconda, (just in time, too, by the look of things ) I at least have enough mass storage space to, absolute worst-case-scenario, keep a smaller ship permanently funded with the occasional milk run. Not super worried, though, neither of my usual trade routes seem to have been overtly affected yet

 

[Slacker]

Between the name-calling, knee-jerk reactions, smugness, off-topic stuff and general gibberish I think something has been missed.

If a single commander (albeit in a big trader) can effect the market of a planetary system in a very short period of time then something is amiss. That is not a reasonable fix to a market problem.

Perhaps it's just early days and it'll settle down - I hope so, because supply and demand also needs to respond to a believable scale.

 

[OnePercent]

Trading hasn't just been nuked, it has actually been cast by the gods into oblivion.

Yes it wasn't working as intended, I accept that. But there are NO in game trade tools and the 'hints' aren't really hints but are actually insanity initiators, FD like to psychologically ruin their players mental health.

 

[KellyR]

After about 3 pages of this, my eyes started glazing over. Trading is just fine. I make money at it even after they've "nuked" it. The thing you have to do is use some common sense. You're on a station with an industrial economy. You decide such and such system is a good one. It's an extraction economy. Take mineral extractors to them. You'll make a profit, I guarantee you. Or maybe you think this agricultural system would be a good bet. Take crop harvesters to them. You will make money. Ok. So you aren't making 1200cr a ton. You're making money. You can't hit a homerun every time.

Now, before you leave, note down what the target site's exports sell for at the station you're on. Once you get to the target site, you can make an informed decision about what you want to bring back. Will it be exact? Probably not since the economy is dynamic, but it will be close and you will make money. Myself, I would recommend the extraction site as metals and minerals usually bring more than food, but that's your call.

But the trading system is not broken. It simply requires more thought now. And if you don't want to use your brain, then I fear you have purchased the wrong game. This is a thinking person's game. Which is why I like it so much.

 

[brakaton]

I assumed they would have fixed seeking luxuries instead of breaking an entire means to make money. Guess its eff the noobies. Get used to those sidewinders cause you'll have them for the next year.

 

[BendersBackBaby]

I assumed they would have fixed seeking luxuries instead of breaking an entire means to make money. Guess its eff the noobies. Get used to those sidewinders cause you'll have them for the next year.

Psst... seeking lux is not the fastest way to make money when you're in a sidewinder.

 

[mongo2006]

I just want you NERF IT because I don't want to earn it, so don't allow others to get it people to know.... YOU MISSED ME!!! been playing almost a month.. I own a Maxed, Viper, Type 9, Maxed Python (260m) Maxed Anaconda (600m) Now I'll have the fun you'll never have. Thank you for driving me to grind harder..

 

[BendersBackBaby]

I just want you NERF IT because I don't want to earn it, so don't allow others to get it people to know.... YOU MISSED ME!!! been playing almost a month.. I own a Maxed, Viper, Type 9, Maxed Python (260m) Maxed Anaconda (600m) Now I'll have the fun you'll never have. Thank you for driving me to grind harder..

Thank you for that mature and thoughtful post.

 

[mongo2006]

Thank you for that mature and thoughtful post.

You're very welcome

 

[KidA39]

Most commodities I've seen have a parameter of pricing that they never come out of.

Yet if a Space Station has not gotten rid of, or has enough of something... then that price needs not to have a cap to it's up or it's down.

If ships haven't brought in enough (or any) grain in a long time, or taken away enough Bio Waste, then those prices need to continue up until they are satisfied, or down to zero costs when they are over stocked and need to get that commodity moving.

"Clogged Toilet, Bio Waste free by the ton!"

"I haven't had an apple all day, Fruit and Vegetables buying 3000 cr per ton!"

Space Time

This. I would love to see trading be more dynamic with this being a good, if not smelly example. I've always wondered how these high tech stations where we farm performance enhancers/palladium get their food from and removes the waste. FD would do well to improve these mechanisms.