Reality-check on get-rich-quick "nerfs"

[Flappers]

If I wanted to play the roots of Elite.. I would load up well elite 1984.

This is 2015 and I wanted to see Elite 2015 not Elite 1984 with better graphics.

And I think if the latter is true then ED is going to fall flat on it's face after 6 months.

Rifter.

Well you can't always have what you want.
Sorry, but most people are enjoying the game. Just because it's not what you want, you can't demand changes.
FD have already stated numerous times their vision for elite. If you want a hand-holding experience with level caps and end game, then there are plenty of other MMO's out there to play. ED will never be like that.

And just because you and a few other minorities don't like it, it doesn't mean the game will fail in the slightest

 

[medwyn]

I enjoy this game too much to see it ruined by negativity, so I had to pop in and just comment on something I've seen a lot of lately in these parts. I see lots of threads about people complaining about "nerfs" where Frontier may be toning down any insanely fast ways of making huge amounts of money, and the inevitable "OMGZ0rZ theres nowai 2 maik gud money anymoar!!1!one!" and couldn't resist putting my 2 credit's worth in as a bit of a reality check:

Simply put, having Frontier "nerf" (I prefer the terms "correct" or "fix") any super-quick ways of making millions of credits in insanely short periods of time is a GOOD THING (tm) insofar as the long-term viability of the game. Why? Because this ISN'T an old-school, single-player game from the 80s. You're not intended to buy it, play it for 2-3 days like crazy to "beat it", and move on the next game; it's a PERSISTENT UNIVERSE game. You're supposed to buy the game, join others playing in the same universe -- whether you do so in open play, group play, or even solo play, you're taking part in the same on-going, evolving, changing game world. You're supposed to come and SPEND SOME TIME here. And with no subscription fee or other cost after the initial purchase, it's perfect for that, even if you play some, take a break, come back, etc.

So what's been happening in the game? Well, we've got a giant new game fresh off the presses and a bunch of people "gaming" it to find all the loopholes and other quirks to "make a quick buck"... and then doing that over and over and over and over, tweaking their techniques to totally optimize to get every last credit per second out of it, amassing megamillions of credits within days and even HOURS. They've got the top-end ships, with the top-end equipment, and all the best of everything in no time at all, and then decry that "there's nothing to do in the game!" Reminds me of so many other games where people rush to level their characters (and even BUY their way to the "end of the game") as quickly as possible, and then are bored because "there's not enough content!!1!" Well, of course not -- you FLEW PAST IT ALL!!!

In this game, "leveling up" IS in large part going through the ship and ship equipment upgrades, and people are completely undermining that whole process, which, in my opinion, should be something stretched out over WEEKS if not MONTHS of play to get to those super-top-end ships. If anyone who buys the game can "power" their way through get-rich-quick schemes to top-end ships in a day or two of effort because of these "financial loopholes", then what's going to keep all these people playing in the long run? In order for E to maintain a large playerbase it NEEDS to make that process a gradual one. (Yes, in addition to adding more gameplay and enhancing all the other play aspects in the game.)

So when Frontier FIXES some way that anyone (and everyone) can just go make MILLIONS of credits within an hour, that's a GOOD THING for the long-term life of the game, and we should applaud them for doing so (as long as they don't get rid of money-making ability completely, which they haven't) and yes, it is perfectly reasonable to expect these things to still be getting found even now after official release, with a game of this size and complexity. Heck, other games have been out for years -- some over a decade -- and STILL get things tweaked from time to times. It IS human nature to look for these "easy money" schemes, and yes, it is normal to be a bit disappointed when one you've found gets FIXED/CORRECTED, but just bear in mind that it's for the good of the game as a whole. And if the game doesn't do well in the long run, ALL of us (who play it) suffer.

Disclaimer: This is, of course, all just MY opinion.

Would you please further emphasise what did you mean on "PERSISTENT UNIVERSE" and "evolving, changing game world"? Just for the sake of reality check
Thanks!

And would you also please tell me where did you get that pair of glasses which makes you see ED as you described in the OP? I would order 2 pairs immediately: one for myself and the other for my friend (also a '84-er) because he dropped ED after a very short while and now wants me to refund him.

In return I am happy to contribute this here: https://anttiilomaki.wordpress.com/2015/02/05/elite-dangerous-or-endangered/

 

[Rifter]

Well you can't always have what you want.
Sorry, but most people are enjoying the game. Just because it's not what you want, you can't demand changes.
FD have already stated numerous times their vision for elite. If you want a hand-holding experience with level caps and end game, then there are plenty of other MMO's out there to play. ED will never be like that.

And just because you and a few other minorities don't like it, it doesn't mean the game will fail in the slightest

If I paid for something that was not delivered, are you saying I should be happy?

Rifter.

 

[xondk]

+100 to OP Elianydd

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You can see that even a few million per hour difference equals DAYS worth of playing time. Time is a valuable resource and that's why we are complaining.

While I agree, I think you missed the point.
This is a game that is meant to be like the old style games from what I understand it, when you didn't have a million games around you, this is meant to be a game that you almost play exclusively, and if you enjoy the game, and continue to do so, regardless of how many hours you invest in it, then I would say the game has succeeded, if you do not enjoy the game, and only expect to play it like at the most 60 hours before expecting to be maxed out, then maybe this isn't the game for you..

 

[Sammey]

Make Graduated Licencing based on Game activity level, or special missions that allow you to obtain a higher level ship.
Credits are only for weapons and upgrades.
Keep everything reasonably priced. ie no 30mil modulus.

Thats how I would have done it. But it is what it is.

 

[Elianydd]

Would you please further emphasise what did you mean on "PERSISTENT UNIVERSE" and "evolving, changing game world"?

Well, I think persistent is implied in the fact that they're maintaining some form of "servers" or other central processing center that maintains information about the game universe that changes regardless of whether you, as an individual, log in and play or not. The game as a whole also has ongoing plot(s). Plus, you can play some, quit for a while, come back, and it's not exactly how you left it. This combined with the fact that they're still adding to the game covers the "changing game world", does it not? We could quibble over "evolving" I guess, but it is certainly intended to be a persistent game world and a changing game world, from all I've been able to tell.

And would you also please tell me where did you get that pair of glasses which makes you see ED as you described in the OP?

Perhaps it's because I have the advantage (?) of NOT having played any of the prior games, haven't been involved in the Kickstarter or beta, and just bought in after release, that I had few preconceived notions other than "Oooh, THAT looks like a fun space game!" for what the game would or would not be. And I have been having a lot of fun in the game. Certainly I look forward to improvements to the existing systems, and the addition of new ones, but that doesn't make me enjoy what's already there any less.

 

[Gertrude]

Nerfing ways to earn credits exposes how bland and empty the game is. If this game was described as the relentless grind fest it has proven to be, yes, I agree that I would not have purchased this game as it would not be for me. To tell people that this isn't the game for them after they have made a non-refundable purchase really doesn't help anyone or anything.

 

[medwyn]

Well, I think persistent is implied in the fact that they're maintaining some form of "servers" or other central processing center that maintains information about the game universe that changes regardless of whether you, as an individual, log in and play or not. The game as a whole also has ongoing plot(s). Plus, you can play some, quit for a while, come back, and it's not exactly how you left it. This combined with the fact that they're still adding to the game covers the "changing game world", does it not? We could quibble over "evolving" I guess, but it is certainly intended to be a persistent game world and a changing game world, from all I've been able to tell.



Perhaps it's because I have the advantage (?) of NOT having played any of the prior games, haven't been involved in the Kickstarter or beta, and just bought in after release, that I had few preconceived notions other than "Oooh, THAT looks like a fun space game!" for what the game would or would not be. And I have been having a lot of fun in the game. Certainly I look forward to improvements to the existing systems, and the addition of new ones, but that doesn't make me enjoy what's already there any less.

Fair enough, thanks
Best regards,
Medwyn

 

[Vincent Starson]

While I agree, I think you missed the point.
This is a game that is meant to be like the old style games from what I understand it, when you didn't have a million games around you, this is meant to be a game that you almost play exclusively, and if you enjoy the game, and continue to do so, regardless of how many hours you invest in it, then I would say the game has succeeded, if you do not enjoy the game, and only expect to play it like at the most 60 hours before expecting to be maxed out, then maybe this isn't the game for you..

That's quite the run on sentence! Maybe that's the point of the game for you, but I want to reach Elite in a reasonable time frame. I never said I wanted to be done in 60 hours, there is no "done" in a sandbox game. I'd be fine with 150-200 hours of trading to reach elite, that's pretty significant.

That's months of play time for me. And after that, I can continue reaching elite in combat and exploration. This game IS for me, I won't run out of things to do for a long time.

I'm glad that trading is getting balanced and is becoming more dynamic, believe me. I'm glad Seeking Luxuries are becoming more rare, I didn't want to do those forever.

I'm just playing devil's advocate so you can see where the attitude comes from, time is very valuable to players. The change FD made was unannounced and costs players more time. The backlash was probably expected.

 

[Flyinpiranha]

So I can "make my own way" as long as that way is your way. Got it.

 

[Vincent Starson]

So I can "make my own way" as long as that way is your way. Got it.

+1 Repped. I see this attitude a lot and find it selfish. It comes across as if we are "playing the game wrong" by not sitting in a Cobra for 6 months and instead trying to earn lots of credits.

 

[xondk]

That's quite the run on sentence! Maybe that's the point of the game for you, but I want to reach Elite in a reasonable time frame. I never said I wanted to be done in 60 hours, there is no "done" in a sandbox game. I'd be fine with 150-200 hours of trading to reach elite, that's pretty significant.

That's months of play time for me. And after that, I can continue reaching elite in combat and exploration. This game IS for me, I won't run out of things to do for a long time.

I'm glad that trading is getting balanced and is becoming more dynamic, believe me. I'm glad Seeking Luxuries are becoming more rare, I didn't want to do those forever.

I'm just playing devil's advocate so you can see where the attitude comes from, time is very valuable to players. The change FD made was unannounced and costs players more time. The backlash was probably expected.

Yeah, punctuation and whatnot brain being foggy from cold.
Either way, but yeah I see it, and understand though the trading isn't as much a change as a fix, something that was never intended. But yes I understand people's frustrations, but to me everyone just seems in a rush now a days when it comes to gaming, and if a quick way to do something is removed, people complain to no end, it is almost as if getting to the end of the game is what is important now a days, and not the gaming experience and gameplay itself. Which is just sad.

 

[Vincent Starson]

Yeah, punctuation and whatnot brain being foggy from cold.
Either way, but yeah I see it, and understand though the trading isn't as much a change as a fix, something that was never intended. But yes I understand people's frustrations, but to me everyone just seems in a rush now a days when it comes to gaming, and if a quick way to do something is removed, people complain to no end, it is almost as if getting to the end of the game is what is important now a days, and not the gaming experience and gameplay itself. Which is just sad.

Why do you care if players try to complete the game quickly? That's just another type of player.

Never google "Video Game Speed Runs". You will be disappointed.

 

[BlackReign]

Yeah, punctuation and whatnot brain being foggy from cold.
Either way, but yeah I see it, and understand though the trading isn't as much a change as a fix, something that was never intended. But yes I understand people's frustrations, but to me everyone just seems in a rush now a days when it comes to gaming, and if a quick way to do something is removed, people complain to no end, it is almost as if getting to the end of the game is what is important now a days, and not the gaming experience and gameplay itself. Which is just sad.

It's sad to you. Perhaps you lack the understanding that people play games for entertainment. Time is a precious commodity you can't reproduce. Games that lack entertainment value, per unit of time, find themselves shelved and abandoned. But you clearly like the opposite.

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Nerfing ways to earn credits exposes how bland and empty the game is. If this game was described as the relentless grind fest it has proven to be, yes, I agree that I would not have purchased this game as it would not be for me. To tell people that this isn't the game for them after they have made a non-refundable purchase really doesn't help anyone or anything.

Completely agree.

 

[Vincent Starson]

Nerfing ways to earn credits exposes how bland and empty the game is. If this game was described as the relentless grind fest it has proven to be, yes, I agree that I would not have purchased this game as it would not be for me. To tell people that this isn't the game for them after they have made a non-refundable purchase really doesn't help anyone or anything.

I kind of disagree. As someone in an Anaconda who did lots of trading to get there, I was unhappy with how static the routes were. Now that it is more dynamic I have more reason to switch into my Asp and explore for new routes (buying one ton and looking for a good seller).

I do agree that it feels like an old switcheroo, and that you might feel cheated by it. I kind of see it as late fixes to the release that would have made trading more fun.

 

[Flappers]

If I paid for something that was not delivered, are you saying I should be happy?

Rifter.

You got exactly what was sold to you.
There is nothing on the description of the product that isn't in the game.

Take control of your own starship in a cutthroat galaxy.

In the year 3300, across the vast expanse of an epic, full-scale recreation of our Milky Way, interstellar rivalries flare as galactic superpowers fight proxy wars.

Some may know you as an ally; others will call you a pirate, a bounty hunter, a smuggler, an explorer, an assassin, a hero... Fly alone or with friends, fight for a cause or go it alone; your actions change the galaxy around you in an ever unfolding story.

Start with a small starship and a few credits, and do whatever it takes to get the skill, knowledge, wealth and power to stand among the ranks of the Elite.

You got what you paid for.

What you expected is another thing entirely. You were not miss-sold a product.
You misinformed yourself about the product and didn't research it enough to see if it was right for you before buying.

 

[xondk]

It's sad to you. Perhaps you lack the understanding that people play games for entertainment. Time is a precious commodity you can't reproduce. Games that lack entertainment value, per unit of time, find themselves shelved and abandoned. But you clearly like the opposite.

I don't quite understand. I enjoy this game a lot? so do others? so how is this game not entertaining?
If you want to measure everything in 'fun per minute' or whatever unit you want to call it, then that is to me, sad and ruins the entire point of having a fun and entertaining game. Who cares how long you have been playing? if you are having fun playing, then what else matters? and if you are not having fun, play something that is fun?
If you bought a game and it wasn't fun to you, but is to others, then that is not the games fault. You bought the wrong game for you then, wanting the game to change to be fun to you, might mean ruining it for the others, the often silent majority that is enjoying the game, I mean do you really think official forum posts ever truly represent the whole community? they don't.

 

[Ydiss]

In a way, I'd like more of these "events". But I want them to be designed properly so they're less "maximise profit doing the same thing repeatedly" and more "maximise profit by doing something interesting".

The negativity against the initial rare trading and luxuries gold rush "events" came across as sour grapes. Understandable sour grapes, considering trading isn't everyone's cup of tea. But still, no one really had any reason to complain about it except jealousy. Again, understandable jealousy. But it's all the same, nonetheless. It was enormously countered by lots and lots of players meeting in a location in space and we had fighting and lots of things to talk about. I see lots of players complain that there's nothing in the game to draw players together and when it happens they complain about it anyway.

What would be nice is if we got periodic events like this where profits are high but the activity is varied. I was sort of hoping community goals would fulfill this role but according to what I've seen the rewards aren't worth it. So few will flock.

I'd like to see conflicts with varied reward structures, so that on occasion a conflict will spring up where the bonds are triple, quadruple or higher than the base in 1.1. Lots of money to be made for combatants. Lots of players flock. Threads get started. The game feels more alive. Or a system suffers a very high piracy rate and the bounties are dramatically higher than usual, yet they fight in packs and are highly rated.

Or perhaps an event where exploration to a very distant area of suns is called for, resulting in a very big payout for exploring each system successfully. But this event triggers a very high chance of very dangerous NPC spawns in the region.

Or a mining gold rush where extremely large quantities of a rare metal (otherwise unavailable) are made available in a system; however, NPC pirate activity is increased. Huge profits for miners. Big opportunity for pirates. A place for bounty hunters to go to provide protection and get some bounties.

Or a system has a large amount of highly illegal goods left after "insert event here" for smugglers to bring back big profits. But anyone picking up the goods gets an instant bounty on their head, so bounty hunters can have a field day. Upon successfully selling the goods on the black market, without being scanned, the bounty is removed. Again, the NPC activity needs to be bumped up to make it challenging, particularly once wings are introduced.

Or luxury traders only trade in rare goods, offering to buy them at double the asking price in the system they reside; in return they give you their own unique rare good which sells at double the price on the same 150LY scale, in reverse. So when one pops up in a holy-trinity location (for example, around 150LY from Lave), everyone knows about it and suddenly we have a new route, a new thread, new events. Lots of money to be made but only over a short period of time (no more than a few days).

The fact remains that credit rushes make the game more interesting. But they need to be interesting in themselves. Not that my ideas are particularly gripping, I'm just throwing out ideas. The luxury trading routes were dull but the community interaction was not.

 

[KellyR]

You forgot the part where there's nothing substantial to do in this hollow shell of a beta release game. I've explored, mined, smuggled, traded and engaged in fighting/bounty hunting. Once you've done it all you start to realize how content starved the game is.

Sorry for expecting a full game at release. The game might improve over time and Frontier might collapse before then. Who knows? The major all consuming problem with this game is lack of content. I see a lot of people who enjoy the game, myself included, but who rather quickly start questioning what there really is left to do.

Grinding more credits? Finding more star systems? It all grows boring rather quickly. There really isn't much to do past a point that many people arrive at rather quickly.

Personally I've seen nothing ongoing, revolving or interesting happening.

It's all DREAMS of what might come. Reality is a massive lack of content in the game as it stands.

You got a full game at release. You didn't get a finished game at release. This game will never be finished. There's always more content to add. And they will. They might even charge for some of it. But that's fine. Hey, they've got to make money, or why do it? Just for our pleasure? That would be nice but it doesn't work that way.

And what the OP said is true. If you let people get mega rich in less than a month, they'll get bored quickly. I know this first hand. I run an online gaming server and I made the mistake of creating trade routes that would get people tens of millions of credits very quickly. And the population has dropped off because I can't add more content. Only the developers can do that. If I had it to do over, I would definitely do it differently. The economy on my server is royally SCREWED. And it seems like you guys want to royally SCREW the economy here. Well, I'm glad FD isn't playing that game.

 

[deMangler]

+1 to the OP. Well said.