General / Off-Topic Effect of US Default on Frontier/ED
- Thread starter Herik
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Karl Marx called it: Capitalism will dig its own grave and its happening right now. You can only push a system so far until the corrupt stench of its rotting insides seep out. The current system became outdated in the 20's, and its terrible because it allows for people with a childs mentality and obsession with power to be in control, the wise do not care about control, weak, timid souls do. Guess who the world is run by....
I like Karl. He has some good points. I just think evil people corrupted his ideas. The world will never be free with the illusions of capitalism. The s h i t house will go up in flames sooner or later. We are just postponing it. Borrowing money to pay back loans have never worked. The only solution is to start over again and admit the mistakes been done. Erase the illusions, and the illusions are the capitalistic system. It only feeds the mind of corrupt and powerhungry people and those to seek to use and manipulate others. But the system could work if it had some balance to it. But the promise of power and money can destroy even the gentle mind and soul. US has gotten some breathing space. But has only postponed the inevitable. It either going bankrupt dragging the rest of the world with it or there will be a revolution of epic scales. Or the best option. The debt will be erased so US can start over again fresh. This time thinking different with other people at the power which use heart and love as their politics, not war and greed.
I like Karl. He has some good points. I just think evil people corrupted his ideas. The world will never be free with the illusions of capitalism. The s h i t house will go up in flames sooner or later. We are just postponing it. Borrowing money to pay back loans have never worked. The only solution is to start over again and admit the mistakes been done. Erase the illusions, and the illusions are the capitalistic system. It only feeds the mind of corrupt and powerhungry people and those to seek to use and manipulate others. But the system could work if it had some balance to it. But the promise of power and money can destroy even the gentle mind and soul. US has gotten some breathing space. But has only postponed the inevitable. It either going bankrupt dragging the rest of the world with it or there will be a revolution of epic scales. Or the best option. The debt will be erased so US can start over again fresh. This time thinking different with other people at the power which use heart and love as their politics, not war and greed.
Not really, he was an evil SoB who inspired numerous evil SoBs to put his idea's into practice. He also allowed further evil SoBs to claim to be "moderates" because they advocated a variety other half-way points between the extremes of liberalism (in the classic sense) and communism. Even now, after a century of bloodshed and failure we still have people advocating more of the same.
What we need is a return to genuine Liberalism and rational economic policy, but I'm not going to hold by breath.
He was sure misguided in his violence (although never went to fruition), however you must understand absurd level of cruelty of that time - everyone - Russian, German, Austroprussian secret police - haunted all politically marginal groups, including socialists (but not only them, also nationalists, etc.), like a dogs. I won't delve into who shoot first, and it also doesn't make anarchists, socialists and communists crimes undone - they are indeed bloody and therefore we won't see any sane discussion as socialism for very long time, because Stalin, because Mao, because Lenin, because Red Terror, etc. But cruelty was sign of time, and big role was played by heavy handed handling of new political groups in these empires. How do you think KGB learned to torture people so well? But that's another discussion for another time, I really love history.
*However* I will disagree on your simplistic evaluation of Marx thoughts on capitalism. While lot of in his theory about word wide revolution were nuts and too simplistic, and he underestimated flexibility of Capitalism system itself (btw thanks to socialdemocrats and sane capitalists for that), he was right about Capitalism true nature, which is trying to destroying itself, because it builds upon shallow human instinct. Denying it would be stupid. It doesn't mean we can't fix it.
Also in theory, socialism is purest form of democracy. It have never ended that way, but theory is interesting
Btw I believe in liberalism in human rights level, however I disagree it fully applicable to upper level of state. It is a question of safeguards and balance of power.
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"Simplistic" isn't a good thing or a bad thing in politics or anything else. E=MC^2 is a very simple formula, but it's not actually wrong.
Socialism might well be a pure form of democracy, but that's not really relevant IMO. Democracy isn't the desired end goal, Liberty is. Democracy is just a tool used to try and stop the state becoming tyrannical.
On a vaguely associated note; these educational music video's (released a couple of years ago) are very good on the central-planning vs free-market debate (Keynes vs Hayek) which, putting Karl Marx aside, is where the debate lies in most democratic countries:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0nERTFo-Sk&feature=c4-overview-vl&list=PLA7727E2065FDCBC7
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTQnarzmTOc&feature=c4-overview-vl&list=PLA7727E2065FDCBC7
Marxism leads to the same end result. Those who seek power tend not to deserve it. There is not and has never been any societal system that has prevented those motivated by greed seeking positions of power.
Well its not easy to find a solution which will make peace on earth. And justice to all men and women on this planet. But capitalism wont be the way and neither communism either. Capitalism seem to get out of control, and the freedom of opportunity and wealth makes some rich and the others working ants. And again makes people corrupt because everyone or many wants to be one of the howling wolves. Which can eat caviar and soup champagne. When the human mind has first tasted wealth it wont go back to poverty. Communism seems to attract dictators with promises of sharing all and the state provides comfort and needs. Its like delivering the perfect package to sociopaths and powermongers. They just need to climb to the top and catch the cheese and they have all power. And this is done with good intentions and promises. But settling down on the top the real beast shows its cards. A new dictator is born and freedom vanishes like it never existed. Replaced by control and fear. Stalin is a good example of this. On the other side you have Hitler which came to power by false gifts and broken promises. In socialistic/democratic Germany. How can good people protect themselves agains such sociopaths and powermongers. Which uses fear and hate as their remedy to rise to power. And uses lies/deluding to gain the upper hand. The only sullotion comes from a good heart which want the best to all man. And not the few. The world need a new system and a true leader which devotes time and wisdom from the heart and a clean counsiousness. I guess one day man will live in peace and harmony with each other and all can be free. But it wont happen with capitalism. just look whats happening with world economy. There is only debt left.
Thank you, *this* was insightful.
One man's debt is another man's deposit ... the debt is always owed to someone, who then has savings. The trouble is that economic imbalance has grown to the point where many debts have (IMO) become unrepayable, meaning that savers should not logically save any more. But they are trapped along with the rest, for if they stop saving (=lending) then the whole house of cards comes down and their deposits are lost immediately, instead of at some time in the future.
Bringing back a bit of Elite relevance, I think the one thing that could save the growth/debt based model would be expansion into space, simply because it would enable growth to continue -- new territories and resources, effectively a new frontier. As was seen in the old West, it's a different kettle of fish being poor when there's a frontier offering an escape route, and being poor in a limited territory where everything has already been claimed by some rich person.
I have no problem with identifying myself as a bit of a Marxist, perhaps more of a Trotskyist. The problem with Communism in general is you have had every implementation created by a bunch of psychopaths. There isn't one system of communism that has existed so far that is even close to what it really means.
Warts and all, Cuba hasn't done badly all things considered - you know the huge freaking economic embargo by the USA.
If anyone of you are really interested in a decent understanding of what real communism is.. go read Howard Zinn's ' A Peoples History of America'. In the first chapter, and by the way its horrifying, you'll understand what it should really mean.
Bear in mind for those who haven't already swallowed. Its a red and blue pill choice scenario - 'All I offer is the truth'.
Warts and all, Cuba hasn't done badly all things considered - you know the huge freaking economic embargo by the USA.
If anyone of you are really interested in a decent understanding of what real communism is.. go read Howard Zinn's ' A Peoples History of America'. In the first chapter, and by the way its horrifying, you'll understand what it should really mean.
Bear in mind for those who haven't already swallowed. Its a red and blue pill choice scenario - 'All I offer is the truth'.
Hmm. I would've thought that it was more like they give voice and political agency to their citizenry. Could be wrong though.
No, but you're right - democracies tend not to go to the mat with each other.
UK versus Finland during WWII. Even though no fighting took place, the UK declared war on Finland because the latter were fighting the Russians.You're not
Now of course I am trying to think of an instance when they did. Is there an exception to prove the rule?
Not true, Marx wasn't pursued in the UK.
If I can post a personal position, the problem with governance is people. Corrupt people will always make for corrupt governance regardless of the system.
For example, how many of the people who complain about corruption have their own little fiddle I wonder?
For example, how many of the people who complain about corruption have their own little fiddle I wonder?
Strictly speaking it was because Finland allied with the Germans, we didn't declare war on Finland in 1939 during the Winter War after all.
Yes I was a tad brief, flippant and not very clear. There was damage but they put a stop to it. And they met with the civilian population (some local women in particular, who were very surprised to discover that the butchering thug in charge they'd been warned about was a polite decend sort
) and agreed not to burn their houses and shops. Ah, gallantry Cuba's public healthcare system is to be admired, especially given the shameful embargo.
Thank you - I will look it up. It sounds like a gesture in the much wider conflict. Interesting that no fighting happened.
Programmer that I am, I always saw the whole communism vs. democracy thing as a fight between efficiency and robustness. Intelligent, honest government can do a lot more if it has good control of the system it's running. But power corrupts, so in the long term a system full of redundancy and cruft turns out to perform better than a beautifully engineered one.
Cuba (and even more so China) are interesting examples in that case. I look forward to seeing how Cuba holds up in the post-Castro long term, and how China holds up now it has to maintain a sharp-elbowed middle class.
Well, I guess in the end its all about leadership. If good people with a heart let greedy corrupted people come to power. Then you will get a bad regime. Its all about the people you put in charge. Good people will make a good regime. Like here in Norway. Where we share and take care
To go back to the game I think I made my point
All the "bad people" "governments" will make a migthy fine sandbox in E.D
And without all the different types there wouldnt be a living breathing universe and the possibilities to be a mean son of a
Kremt, but in the real world we should really start to think different. More positive for the future of mankind.
To go back to the game I think I made my point
All the "bad people" "governments" will make a migthy fine sandbox in E.D
And without all the different types there wouldnt be a living breathing universe and the possibilities to be a mean son of a
Kremt, but in the real world we should really start to think different. More positive for the future of mankind.
Kremt, but in the real world we should really start to think different. More positive for the future of mankind.
You know I can't rep you anymore right?
But I would. Again, thank you for saying this.
About the "UK - Finland war"
Those were interesting times. Basically, Germany and Russia had originally agreed about the division of eastern Europe between the two powers. Finland was a region that had been agreed to belong to Russia. The Finns naturally did not like this and attempted to ally with Germany to fight the Russians. Germany held silent for a long while and Finland fought the war alone. UK and other nations supported Finland by selling them weapons and even by sending soldiers to help the cause, as 'volunteers' (The actor Christopher Lee actually fought with Finns in this war).
The trouble started when Germany finally allied with Finland and sent troops there. UK and other nations could naturally not tolerate this and declared war. The fact that no war was never actually fought tells that they understood Finland's position.
The alliance with Germany was an interesting detail in itself. The president Risto Ryti signed the treaty in such a way that it basically bound Finland to the alliance for only so long as Ryti was in power. After the Russian danger was defeated, Ryti gave up his position and was imprisoned and Finland fought another war to drive Germans out of the country.
After the second World War, Finland was the only country in Europe that paid back all their war debts, including the reparations that they had to pay to Russia for the war.
Those were interesting times. Basically, Germany and Russia had originally agreed about the division of eastern Europe between the two powers. Finland was a region that had been agreed to belong to Russia. The Finns naturally did not like this and attempted to ally with Germany to fight the Russians. Germany held silent for a long while and Finland fought the war alone. UK and other nations supported Finland by selling them weapons and even by sending soldiers to help the cause, as 'volunteers' (The actor Christopher Lee actually fought with Finns in this war).
The trouble started when Germany finally allied with Finland and sent troops there. UK and other nations could naturally not tolerate this and declared war. The fact that no war was never actually fought tells that they understood Finland's position.
The alliance with Germany was an interesting detail in itself. The president Risto Ryti signed the treaty in such a way that it basically bound Finland to the alliance for only so long as Ryti was in power. After the Russian danger was defeated, Ryti gave up his position and was imprisoned and Finland fought another war to drive Germans out of the country.
After the second World War, Finland was the only country in Europe that paid back all their war debts, including the reparations that they had to pay to Russia for the war.
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But maybe they are close to what human beings can feasibly implement (outside of Utopia) ... any system has to be judged by how it works in the world as it is, not how it's supposed to work in an ideal world.
I would argue that the US embargo (which is an embargo of political influence as well as of trade) has been a saving grace for Cuba!