Modes The Solo vs Open vs Groups Thread [See new thread]

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eeps

eeps
Ok but there are servers of some type ..

I think :

The friends + chat seems to be hosted by a server
The download for the updates are hosted on a server (unless these 'seeded' and are p2p)

When they drop the servers for an update, some functions are stopped before others, which leads me to think they are on separate servers.

So its just the gameplay which is p2p, which fairly enough might be expensive, but its not like FD didnt have the cash. And it would have made a big impact on the time needed to close exploits/hacks etc. In the end a certain amount of files will have to be checked or 'hosted' server-side to avoid users from editing them. So would it not be more frugal over time to have servers hosting the gameplay ?
 

Ideas Man

Banned
Ideas Man
It's interesting for sure, the whole infrastructure seems a bespoke one, it's intriguing to me how it all works.

eeps said:
Ok but there are servers of some type ..

I think :

The friends + chat seems to be hosted by a server
The download for the updates are hosted on a server (unless these 'seeded' and are p2p)

When they drop the servers for an update, some functions are stopped before others, which leads me to think they are on separate servers.

So its just the gameplay which is p2p, which fairly enough might be expensive, but its not like FD didnt have the cash. And it would have made a big impact on the time needed to close exploits/hacks etc. In the end a certain amount of files will have to be checked or 'hosted' server-side to avoid users from editing them. So would it not be more frugal over time to have servers hosting the gameplay ?
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Uueerdo

Uueerdo
eeps said:
I'm not suggesting that programmers are just being lazy (well not at this moment im not :p), but I wonder if there are other reasons why client-side stuff is on the rise.
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Speaking as a programmer (with very little experience with networking in particular) I'd have to say I would expect P2P to be more challenging to develop. Instead of having one server running and being the definitive state of the simulation for X clients, having a connection to each client; you have X clients, each with a separate connection to every other client in their instance, none in particular being the definitive game state, and each also having a connection to a server to record that client's game state data and probably trying to resolve inconsistent client data and to coordinate connecting and disconnecting clients from one another.
P2P is generally much more complicated conceptually, but also much much cheaper to "run".

To bring Eve into the discussion for comparison (because who doesn't like throwing gasoline on a fire;))....
It is Elite's P2P design that allows the "polling interval" that enables dogfights Eve can probably only dream of; but Elite's client-server polling can at the same time probably be many times less frequent than Eve's.
 
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Dave1235

D
Ideas Man said:
I just hope this doesn't bite them down the line, as a group of 10 computer savvy people we never once reliably saw each other in game, not once.
The consumers experience is king and it wasn't great, especially as FD do advertise the Playing With Friends aspect of the game.
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I can totally empathise with you there, there was a vote to gather the general feeling when the launch date was announced, I picked the option that was (not exact can't remember) I think they should delay the launch, but if they think they can do it then go for it.

I have seen youtube of ~ 6/7 CMDR's all jumping together (think it was in a news letter link 3/4 weeks back), it was a short clip & you didn't see if it took them 2 minutes or 2 hours to arrange it but yes, I agree, in an ideal world the ability to jump easily in a group should have been here at launch along with better comms to support it, this is something a lot of people want and it will be here soon (content for the many before changes for the few from my previous post).

Regarding the P2P (I am not a techie, I will just give my opinion and try to explain it as best I can, I am putting on my flame retardant suit just in case I get anything wrong, I have read a lot about it (yes I do read a lot more than I post in general)).

C/S vs P2P, C/S costs more, servers need to be spread globally to avoid lag and all feed back into the main servers that maintain the galaxy, trading, matchmaking etc, have to maintain many servers on different continents and pay for the bandwidth between them (private IP circuits I do know a bit about & they are not cheap).

P2P the matchmaking server says, Hi you 32 guys close to each other in Australia, on the opposite side of the planet (or 32 people a mile away from the main servers), "meet each other, say hi", your PC's are handling all the basics now, just need a bit of bandwidth to FD (and each other) to verify combat or trades etc (we are now paying all the costs for the bandwidth to our peers & the FD servers, and mostly in inclusive BB packages anyway).

I am sure FD put a lot of time into researching the viability of P2P before they decided that was they way they were going to do it, you don't launch your flagship game, the one you fund through KS so you can make "the game we want to play" the way they want to do it then say "sod it, lets see if we can save a few quid cutting some corners on the infrastructure, no one will notice its not C/S & P2P if we don't tell them"

I believe wings is in the next update, now that is something that will get the hour or two I have a few evenings a week away from this forum, and likely more in open mode too, that would entice me to find a similar minded group near to me to go do something fun together, but it would need some good multi player missions to make it work well.
 
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NewYears1978

NewYears1978
Drakkir said:
One or both of you has a router with the NAT set to either (Moderate) or (Strict). For p2p type games to work properly you need to switch it to (Open), if you all do that. Start a private group, you will always be in each others (Island) as this game terms it. When you are both in the same system that is...
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I will have to check that. By design the P2P used here is bad...we shouldn't have to jump through hoops to make it work.
 

Dave1235

D
Ideas Man said:
If you want to make an online game, get servers, if you can't afford servers don't make an online game.
I want to restore and fly a Concorde but I can't afford to, so I don't.
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Yeah they should have kept it offline, that was the big mistake.

If you want an only online only game then make it, if you can't afford to make your only online game then don't.

I want to make my own game but I can't afford to, so I play this one and try to enjoy it (its a game & I do).
 

Ideas Man

Banned
Ideas Man
I doubt you'll believe me but me and a friend are making a multiplayer space shooter with planetary landing and a mission structure / story.
The crazy thing is my friend who came up with the idea has never played Elite at all and when I showed him it he was all like 'no way ha ha' because the similarities are there.
I don't think much of that game tbh and I'm making it, so you'll see I have a very critical mind, it helps improve things.

Dave1235 said:
Yeah they should have kept it offline, that was the big mistake.

If you want an only online only game then make it, if you can't afford to make your only online game then don't.

I want to make my own game but I can't afford to, so I play this one and try to enjoy it (its a game & I do).
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Dave1235

D
Ideas Man said:
I doubt you'll believe me but me and a friend are making a multiplayer space shooter with planetary landing and a mission structure / story.
The crazy thing is my friend who came up with the idea has never played Elite at all and when I showed him it he was all like 'no way ha ha' because the similarities are there.
I don't think much of that game tbh and I'm making it, so you'll see I have a very critical mind, it helps improve things.
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I have no reason to doubt you, we disagree on many things, agree on a few, its opinions, it's never personal.

I wish you well with the game you are trying to make, people with the ability to do that stuff have my respect, I will in future look at SC & LT again, they have been recommended to me, my eyes are not closed.

Constructive criticism is a good thing as is a critical mind, again we agree.

I have no idea how many hours you are both putting into making your game, if its something you are doing for fun or as a commercial project, but if you make it public, I hope you are ready for the feedback, the people here are generally quite nice compared to the general interwebs crew, lord forbid they ask you for a single player version of your game ;).
 

Dave1235

D
Ideas Man said:
I was playing Open last night and I was in a Nav Beacon just seeing what was there and out of nowhere another human being appeared.

I closed all the windows in my house, made sure my doors were locked and sat and stared at the screen, shivering, scared, feeling lost, helpless and very alone.


What did he want? Why was he here? I could see his hollow marker on my radar, what do I do? How could this be happening to me? Won't someone think of the children?

I screamed out as loud as I could but no one was home, I called the Police, they agreed this sounded serious. They forwarded my distress call to the Army who scrambled jets and used calming techniques on the phone to me to try and stop my shaking and screaming.

The other person on my radar turned to face me, by this point my hands were dripping in sweat, I couldn't see properly and I had to cool down.

|He opened his comms, OK - this is it, my heart can't take any more, I feel weak, tired yet alert somehow. I have never been this terrified.

Slowly his words appear on my screen, this is it folks, this is human contact in a game - Through my tears I manage to see this bounders words appear on my screen, I feel violated.

"Sup dude, how's things goin?"

I smash my monitor with a nearby teapot and run away into the night screaming
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Roflpmsl, I read this earlier and had to find it again to say nice one it made me smile, I just reread it and am still grinning like a fool.

Someone said hi to me in Mobius last night, I said hi back (Its a secret code we use) and he left me alone :D its almost masonic.

- 1 for "They forwarded my distress call to the Army who scrambled jets", that would be the Air Force.
+1 I smash my monitor with a nearby teapot and run away into the night screaming (teapot, funny item)
+1 think of the children? ROFL
+1 my hands were dripping in sweat, I couldn't see properly and I had to cool down (I actually had a fight like that once or twice, adrenaline is a rush)

I don't agree with >95% of what you say but I have to +1 rep you for making me ROFL :D
 

W0OCQCK

W0OCQCK
Ideas Man said:
Please don't talk to me if you are just going to stir things up, or try to, thank you

If you'd like to discuss some actual points I am happy to of course :)

There are two or three people in this thread who purely attack me for some reason and add little to the conversation, you know who you are and I would appreciate it if you didn't respond to or engage with me from now on, I respectfully ask you to leave me alone, thank you very much.
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Well now. I have no axe to grind with you mate. I've actually rep'ed you on a few occasions. Go ahead check it out. Not that it matters. I thought we were all on a bit of the lighter side here. I will however provide my opinion as I see fit. Like it or not.

I still enjoy the game, I still enjoy the mode switching feature, and I'm not hiding from anyone, just enjoying the game the way I like. I do see you in many many threads talking about how horribly bad the game is. It just not horribly bad, and I will always stand by my opinion of this.
 
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chrisfenly

C
Open vs Solo play

Hi all,

I've read the various discussions around Open and Solo play and understand that people have different views on this ... some wanting never to meet human players as they are perceived to be bullies (I prefer to use the word "unpredictable"); others wishing everybody was on open play. I believe both points of view should be catered to and, although I've only ever played in open (IMHO it's more fun due to the unpredictable nature of people you'll meet) I believe that those who wish to emulate the 1984 version of the game and only play with NPCs, or humans who promise never to engage in PVP, should be catered for.

However, I do believe that the same account should not be used in both areas. What do I mean by this? Basically, your progress in Open should not be reflected in Solo and vice versa. Your commander's progress only applies to the environment you're in. So, any credits earned in Open stay in Open. Any ships purchased in Open stay in Open. Any exploration in Open stays in Open.

The benefits of doing this means people don't just gain loads of credits in the lower risk Solo environment and then come to the Open environment with their big shiny ships which haven't been earned on the same playing field. Also, it's not very realistic to be able to jump from one environment to another because you're about to travel through a risky part of space.

I've been reading about the exploits of Erimus - simply amazing! If he were to attempt to travel back to occupied space as he's so high profile I'm sure he'll attract attention, both good and bad. But isn't that the reality? With the game as it's built people will protect him. But, all of that opportunity goes if you can just pop to Solo and remove that risk. I should add, for the record, I'm on the side of the angels here and would love Erimus to make it back safely.

What do you think? Or have I missed something really obvious?
 

Skip Intro

Skip Intro
As has been said, multiple times, the game is designed that you can play in Open, Solo or Group and the backgrounds runs the same. Please feel free to add your thoughts to the ongoing megathread.
 

Joe Spivey

Joe Spivey
Also in before it gets merged with the black hole.

Edited to add: OP, when this gets merged, please take the time to read the first post of the megathread and Michael Brookes' quote.
 
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aeshec

aeshec
You read up on the other threads so you must know that this is just going to get merged with the mega thread for Solo vs Groups vs Open. Which coincidently is a clever way to bump that thread. Was this your intention to zombie raise the Frankenstein thread because... watch out here it comes.

Also this will never get changed as per developer comment after developer comment after developer comment.
 
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Miklos Atreides

Miklos Atreides
Just one question: where is the higher risk in Open?. I'm playing open for weeks now and saw a lot of NPCs and real people, but was interdicted twice by humans and 100 times by NPCs. So there is no more risk at all. There is no need to distinguish that. But that has already been discussed in so many threats before.

Regards,
Miklos
 
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