arguement: Python vs Viper equal skill python SHOULD win

[Defacto]

This is just semantics, but all right. There are 15 different ships so far in ED. Which of these, besides the Viper, are in your opinion fighters? I'm guessing none. There is a pretty clear progression ladder in trade vessels, and from a game designers POV there should be the same for fighters.

Pure fighters: Eagle and Viper.
No, I don't think there should be a ''pretty clear progression ladder'' and I think that it's pretty obvious that it shouldn't from ''the game designers POV'' too. Or do you think FD nerfed the Python by mistake? This isn't supposed to be a game where we ''grind'' until we have the best ship and then go into ''endgame'' where we compete in e-peen contests.

We're getting two heavier combat ships and one light-ish. Hopefully, the heavier combat ships will still have trouble outmanuevering and killing Vipers, but they should have other qualities which makes them attractive.

 

[tagos]

This is just semantics, but all right. There are 15 different ships so far in ED. Which of these, besides the Viper, are in your opinion fighters? I'm guessing none. There is a pretty clear progression ladder in trade vessels, and from a game designers POV there should be the same for fighters.

What are Sidewinders and Eagles, if not fighters?

 

[Belsameth]

Eagle is a fighter, Sidewinder is multipurpose (just really, really tiny)

 

[bassman]

This is just semantics, but all right. There are 15 different ships so far in ED. Which of these, besides the Viper, are in your opinion fighters? I'm guessing none. There is a pretty clear progression ladder in trade vessels, and from a game designers POV there should be the same for fighters.

The thing is that some ships belong to both the combat vs trading progression ladders. If we consider combat capability only then we have roughly sidewinder -> adder -> eagle -> cobra -> viper -> asp -> python -> anaconda - how much more "progression" do you need ?.

 

[Sentenza]

A python vs a Viper 1 on 1 should not be an equal fight. Why not? Cost. What is the point in aspiring to own a Cr.100M ship that can carry the second highest weapon loadout in the game if it is equal 1v1 to a throwaway Viper? Take 30% hull damage in a Python and you are looking at Cr.600,000 to repair. A tank of fuel costs Cr.150,000. Insurance is upwards of Cr.6M.

I have no problem with 2 or more Vipers taking out a Python, that makes more sense. But a single Viper should have it really, really tough against a Python because the risks taken by each player are not equal.


Recent Python nerfs have gone too far; why does the Clipper out-spec it in most regards but costs 1/3 the price?

What does cost have to do with effectiveness? If it was all about "cost", a 747 should be able to defeat an F-16. Ovbiously, that would be crazy. A supertanker will not defeat a missile boat just because it costs fifty times more. It's all about role: the Viper is a dedicated attack craft, built for one thing only - kill ships, the Python is a multirole freighter. It CAN fight, but it is not designed to fight dedicated fighters. Therefore, a competent pilot in a Python will be able to fight Vipers, a novice will not.

 

[Excalibrates]

What does cost have to do with effectiveness? If it was all about "cost", a 747 should be able to defeat an F-16. Ovbiously, that would be crazy. A supertanker will not defeat a missile boat just because it costs fifty times more. It's all about role: the Viper is a dedicated attack craft, built for one thing only - kill ships, the Python is a multirole freighter. It CAN fight, but it is not designed to fight dedicated fighters. Therefore, a competent pilot in a Python will be able to fight Vipers, a novice will not.

It's not about cost exclusively, of course. Sorry I have to spell that out. It's about cost AND role in relation to each other.

With its hardpoints and design the Python is obviously the pinnacle of the multi-role category that starts with the Cobra, goes through the Asp and sitting at the top is the Python. But by definition it should be able to hold its own in a fight.

What you are saying is that a specialist fighter should be able to own anything else, just because of its role definition. So a ship that costs 100 times as much to buy and about 10,000 times as much to run, AND is designed to carry a significant weapons loadout needs to try to run away at the first sign of a tiny disposable fighter. I say "try" to run away because the Python really struggles to do even that now...

Your F-16/747 and missile boat/supertanker analogies are completely broken because the 747 & supertankers are not armed, and if you are looking at a supertanker in Elite you would be looking at the Type 9 not the Python.

 

[babelfisch]

This statement has a flaw in it though. A B52 is meant to take out ground targets. Of which there are none in ED, all combat is ship vs ship.
From a game design perspective it doesn't make that much sense that one of the cheapest and earliest available ships should also be the best fighter.

What about the other points I made? There really isn't much to discuss. The Viper is according to FDEV a top class fighter and the most successful fighter ever build. The Python is not a fighter. Following the price logic I could argue that the Viper should have more cargo space than the hauler because it is more expensive. Doesn't make much sense right?

 

[MrDoe]

Oh this thread again...
Please make more real life comparisons. The ketchup ones still make me giggle...

 

[babelfisch]

It's not about cost exclusively, of course. Sorry I have to spell that out. It's about cost AND role in relation to each other.

With its hardpoints and design the Python is obviously the pinnacle of the multi-role category that starts with the Cobra, goes through the Asp and sitting at the top is the Python. But by definition it should be able to hold its own in a fight.

What you are saying is that a specialist fighter should be able to own anything else, just because of its role definition. So a ship that costs 100 times as much to buy and about 10,000 times as much to run, AND is designed to carry a significant weapons loadout needs to try to run away at the first sign of a tiny disposable fighter. I say "try" to run away because the Python really struggles to do even that now...

Your F-16/747 and missile boat/supertanker analogies are completely broken because the 747 & supertankers are not armed, and if you are looking at a supertanker in Elite you would be looking at the Type 9 not the Python.

But it already is highly capable of fighting. It's not like it would be impossible for a Python to take out a Viper.

 

[Defacto]

Oh this thread again...
Please make more real life comparisons. The ketchup ones still make me giggle...

Viper = Apple
Python = Strawberry

Which one is redder? Python! Therefore Python should be better in combat.
Comparisons always work!

 

[tagos]

It's not about cost exclusively, of course. Sorry I have to spell that out. It's about cost AND role in relation to each other.

With its hardpoints and design the Python is obviously the pinnacle of the multi-role category that starts with the Cobra, goes through the Asp and sitting at the top is the Python. But by definition it should be able to hold its own in a fight.

What you are saying is that a specialist fighter should be able to own anything else, just because of its role definition.

I don't think he's saying that at all. He's saying the Nu-Python can hold its own against the Viper if flown by a competent pilot. As one of the experienced combat pilots has said earlier. In the hands of a good pilot the Python wins most every time.

 

[Dimensions]

Reading some of the Viper threads it sounds as though they got hit fairly hard by the Shield Cell Bank changes, which is necessary for fighting combat capable large ships like the python. In this scenario a Viper can't afford to make mistakes, while the Python can, but will have trouble getting a viper in its sights. In the case of the Python (especially after the balance pass) they will need to adapt their weapon loadouts to include laser turrets, as a nose to nose fight is less likely to happen. This means a Viper has to make even few mistakes as it has to stay close in the python's blind spots for longer. This sounds more balanced than before the 1.1.

But my overall view is that a very skilled Viper pilot should be able able to take out a a poorly piloted/bad loaded or low upgrade Python. If two experienced pilots face off the Viper should be at a natural disadvantage. On average two vipers should be able to give a python a very hard time. But one by itself should not unless it is geared to taking down big ships and the pilot has the skill to do this. If this isn't the case then something is out of whack.

 

[Sentenza]

It's not about cost exclusively, of course. Sorry I have to spell that out. It's about cost AND role in relation to each other.

With its hardpoints and design the Python is obviously the pinnacle of the multi-role category that starts with the Cobra, goes through the Asp and sitting at the top is the Python. But by definition it should be able to hold its own in a fight.

What you are saying is that a specialist fighter should be able to own anything else, just because of its role definition. So a ship that costs 100 times as much to buy and about 10,000 times as much to run, AND is designed to carry a significant weapons loadout needs to try to run away at the first sign of a tiny disposable fighter. I say "try" to run away because the Python really struggles to do even that now...

Your F-16/747 and missile boat/supertanker analogies are completely broken because the 747 & supertankers are not armed, and if you are looking at a supertanker in Elite you would be looking at the Type 9 not the Python.

I'm saying that a specialist fighter should be able to own everything else that's not driven by a more competent pilot - unless it has so much firepower you can't even get close, in which case it's a dedicated combat ship anyway. A fighter craft has an inherent advantage (being built to kill) but it's not a doomsday weapon - your opponent's skill can compensate that advantage. So you will kill a novice Python, but an Elite Python will likely kill you.

 

[micky1up]

I agree. The Viper should be nerfed even further and the Python buffed to reflect the purchase and maintenance costs difference between the two ships. And no, I don't agree that since Viper is a dedicated fighter it should outclass a multipurpose ship, because multipurpose means being able to fight as well.

you would agree dreamer you want a kill all regardless of skill ship as in your previous thread never mind you have never flown one in combat

 

[dreamer1986]

you would agree dreamer you want a kill all regardless of skill ship as in your previous thread never mind you have never flown one in combat

Yes, me smash all! Kidding aside, what I really want, as I mentioned here and in the other thread, is balance. Look at what Excalibrates said above: "What you are saying is that a specialist fighter should be able to own anything else, just because of its role definition. So a ship that costs 100 times as much to buy and about 10,000 times as much to run, AND is designed to carry a significant weapons loadout needs to try to run away at the first sign of a tiny disposable fighter. I say "try" to run away because the Python really struggles to do even that now..." .

For me this doesn't sound balanced.

But I'm starting to think that the devs are moving in the right direction, seeing some experienced pilots saying that Python indeed is starting to have the upper hand against vipers, thanks to the Shield Cells nerf.

 

[tagos]

In practical commercial terms the role of the Viper is to allow customers (whose money is just as good as mine) who cannot put in the days and weeks to grind their way to the bigger ships for whatever reason, a seat at the game table. With a Viper skill and dedication allows them a fighting chance. It allows them to have more fun. And that's okay with me. I don't care about spurious 'real world' analogies or what I think my bigger ship and longer player hours 'should' entitle me to. I'm concerned that ED attracts and retains a large player base.

If that means a skilled pilot in a Viper can give me a hard time despite my bigger ship and longer playing time that's fine with me. If I'm in an Asp, Python, clipper or Drop-Ship with all their strengths and advantages and I cannot defeat a Viper then I need to become a better pilot not a forum warrior.

With the loadouts, with the potential weapon mixes, with flight Assist, with shield cells, with chaff, with turrets, with the various point defences to play with I'll find what works for me and have a lot of fun doing so.

Biggest Ship Wins is boring and commercial suicide.

 

[ninja]

here here ..

 

[Excalibrates]

I guess the main issue I have is that a large well-armed ship like a Python or Anaconda should be a major takedown for smaller ships. It should be possible with a smaller ship, but really only if the pilot skill classes are polar opposites and/or the larger ship is badly equipped. Taking out a Python should be an aspirational achievement much like a wolf pack taking down a buffalo - made much easier by working co-operatively.

The reason I say this is because the 2 protagonists have very different risks; if a decently skilled Viper meets a decently skilled Python then let's say after the latest balancing the outcome is equal both sides (probably too early to say, but let's assume it is). The Viper has between Cr.30,000-Cr.200,000 insurance at risk (for a "decent" to "top spec" loadout). The Python has Cr.4,000,000-Cr.8,000,000 insurance at risk. If equal in 1v1 then the Viper pilot can shrug off the loss but the Python pilot feels some major financial pain equating to 2-3 hours grind. Even if the Python escapes wounded they could be easily looking at a Cr.1,000,000 repair cost.

The ships may be more balanced in terms of capability but they're not in terms of risk. This suggests that Pythons need to generally avoid conflict with anything other than low skilled Vipers. Is that what was intended?

 

[Stein]

The thing is that some ships belong to both the combat vs trading progression ladders. If we consider combat capability only then we have roughly sidewinder -> adder -> eagle -> cobra -> viper -> asp -> python -> anaconda - how much more "progression" do you need ?.

That's roughly the same progression chart that I would draw. In terms of grind time /money, there is a HUGE gap from viper to asp, and asp to python. Simple logic would indicate that there should be reasonable step up in combat capabilities as well, corrected for diminishing returns. You need to put down so much effort to be able to afford the next ship on the ladder, and it's required equipment. To put up with the grind, you (or at least I) need a motivation for doing so. One such motivation could be that you want to be able to kill pilots that are strictly better than you, by having a superior ship. There are numerous threads including this one, that details how there are only slight differences between viper and python in combat. If that is so, that the better pilot should *usually* win, then it really kicks away a lot of the motivation needed for grinding towards a bigger fighter vessel. If FD wants to balance combat to be like car races, where skills are most important, it's their decision. But I would like to know what they aim for with the balancing, since it would mean I could just stop grinding towards the python, and rather sell my asp for a viper.

 

[babelfisch]

Some people should understand that grinding to the best ship possible is not the ultimate goal of playing ED. If you make it to your goal, fine do it and have fun with it. But don't complain that the game isn't designed to suit your play style.

Further, the Python and the Asp DOES have better combat capabilities. Just copied numbers from wikia, so I don't know if they are correct, but it should give you the general idea.

Viper: 2 small, 2 medium Hardpoints/Armour 70/Shields 105
Asp: 4 small, 2 medium Hardpoints/Armour 210/Shields 140
Python: 2 medium, 3 large Hardpoints/Armour 260/Shields 260

Now tell me, where do you see less combat capabilities? The Viper has better maneuverability and speed, that's all. You can get outmaneuvered in a Python, but you should still be able to land some devastating shots. Except from this, the Python has a better jumprange, more cargo and can fit more modules. It's clearly the better ship.