arguement: Python vs Viper equal skill python SHOULD win

[Vorxian]

Not sure it even matters. I have bleated quite a bit that bigger / more expensive ships is just for bling right now. When 1.2 comes along, it wont matter if you're in an Anaconda or Python, you're going to face off against viper / eagle / cobra groups, and will perish super quickly. Any Anaconda pilot will need some kind of small fighter escort - even then, if a bunch of vipers make a focused attack, it's not likely that you'll survive. I know there will be noise on the form when two or three focused attack Vipers take out bigger ships rather trivially.

One on one is another thing. The OP correctly suggests that hulking lumbering weapons SHOULD have difficulty hitting a tiny fast agile ship. Absolutely. It's like killing a fly with a sledge hammer. Sure as hell if you hit a fly with a sledge hammer... then... yeah, it's going to be paste. BUT it's highly unlikely, infact a near certainty you'll not hit it. SMALLER weapons should track and be better at hitting smaller targets, BUT THEN you get the whole *what is it mounted on?* question. A machine gun forward facing hard mounted on the front of an articulated lorry isn't going to hit a thing.. a small bike running around in circles would absolutely avoid line of fire, always - lorry just wouldn't have the agility.

So what we have here is this:

Large weapons should by rights have a lot of trouble hitting tiny targets.
Large ships by rights should have a lot of trouble lining up against tiny agile ships.

Small ships have a massive agility advantage over large ships
Small ships are disadvantaged as being limited to smaller calibre weaponry.

An Anaconda should have the same chance at swatting an Eagle / Viper, as a Titan wielding a herculean two-handed warhammer trying to kill a fly.

It's all about having the right tool for the right job. Not a case of 200m credits buying you an 'I automatically win' button.

Right now Elite doesn't really capture the strengths of the bigger class ships. I dare say large scale wars will be waged where you'll have Ana vs Ana packs vs Python backup vs swarms of skirmishing smaller ships. I'd laugh out loud at an Anaconda pilot trying to squash Eagles and Sidewinders if enemy Anacondas or Pythons were shooting at him.

Anaconda / Python with small ship backup will be deadly. On their own, they should be vulnerable.

 

[ndrwc]

And how would you ever establish that 2 players have equal skill/ability ?

Clone them!

Reading some of the Viper threads it sounds as though they got hit fairly hard by the Shield Cell Bank changes, which is necessary for fighting combat capable large ships like the python. In this scenario a Viper can't afford to make mistakes, while the Python can, but will have trouble getting a viper in its sights. In the case of the Python (especially after the balance pass) they will need to adapt their weapon loadouts to include laser turrets, as a nose to nose fight is less likely to happen. This means a Viper has to make even few mistakes as it has to stay close in the python's blind spots for longer. This sounds more balanced than before the 1.1.

But my overall view is that a very skilled Viper pilot should be able able to take out a a poorly piloted/bad loaded or low upgrade Python. If two experienced pilots face off the Viper should be at a natural disadvantage. On average two vipers should be able to give a python a very hard time. But one by itself should not unless it is geared to taking down big ships and the pilot has the skill to do this. If this isn't the case then something is out of whack.

Viper also suffers from a lack of power & heat dissipation issues, especially with 1.1 changes. I've taken down a few Pythons in combat zones with a Viper in 1.1, but only when fighting in a group - I imagine that it would be a lot tougher in 1-vs-1 scenario.

 

[Gogster]

How effective are the large & medium hardpoints in defending the Python from attacks beyond the port? In previous Elite games they were identified by their location, but this maybe moot since many of them are turreted. However if the range of the gimbal is in double digit degrees, it may not be enough to provide adequate coverage.

 

[Derath]

This myth really needs to stop going round, If you lose to a viper in a python you should honestly sell it right now and go practice in something smaller for a bit lol, if you can fly and run turrets you'll win, if you run gimbals you'll win and if you run fixed and can aim you'll win.

The viper is specialised at what it does, but the python still has overwhelming firepower at its disposal so you only have to get them infront once pretty much and if your really getting hammered why wouldn't you just you know.. leave? I've not killed a viper since they patched the python not because they haven't tried but because they all leave when its going bad do the same thing lol.

Edit: Oh and going back to the original title I think if you had equal skill in both ships properly equated, the python would actually have 100% win ratio.

 

[DAYLEET]

Makes no sense to use Pyton and Anaconda versus single small ships, they should be at disadvantage versus single ship because of their size and amount of weapons. A lone Viper should be able to fly circles around those 2 ship. A Python or Anaconda with an escort should be deadly because he would have greater time to use his weapons and shield/hull since they are flagship. They should require an escorts of smaller ships to be deadly. This is a staple of any rts and most fps.

 

[DocWatts]

A large ship can simply jump out of a combat encounter, and there's usually very little a smaller ship can do to stop them. An Imperial Cutter is almost as fast as my Viper and can mass lock my ship. A Python can put 4 pips to shields while waiting for the FSD to go off cooldown and there's very little chance I'll be able to get though your shields and cause any significant damage before you can escape.

Also keep in mind the Viper is a dedicated combat craft which sucks at everything else, while the larger ships currently in the game are supposed to be multipurpose ships. It'll be interesting to see what FD does with the upcoming Vulture and Federal Cruiser.

 

[Trin Tragula]

Makes no sense to use Pyton and Anaconda versus single small ships, they should be at disadvantage versus single ship because of their size and amount of weapons. A lone Viper should be able to fly circles around those 2 ship. A Python or Anaconda with an escort should be deadly because he would have greater time to use his weapons and shield/hull since they are flagship. They should require an escorts of smaller ships to be deadly. This is a staple of any rts and most fps.

yup, big ships need an escort if they dont want to be picked apart by smaller fighters, thats a rule in eve online, too (HICs, anyone?)

it would be bad game design to make some ships completely useless, which the viper would be if the bigger ships would have just as much maneuverability (which the python almost has anyway)

 

[bassman]

That's roughly the same progression chart that I would draw. In terms of grind time /money, there is a HUGE gap from viper to asp, and asp to python. Simple logic would indicate that there should be reasonable step up in combat capabilities as well, corrected for diminishing returns. You need to put down so much effort to be able to afford the next ship on the ladder, and it's required equipment. To put up with the grind, you (or at least I) need a motivation for doing so.

Your right is that there is a discrepancy, but the IMO the prices are the problem not the relative power. The thing about price is that it has no effect on the moment-by-moment gameplay especially in combat, only on the "meta-game" so what your suggesting is to essentially sacrifice the fun of balanced but moderately scaled moment-by-moment experience in order to make it consistent with the price meta-game.

As someone who owns an asp I expect to be able to beat a viper more often than not, but I dont expect or want it to be easy, despite the fact that my asp costs about 30 times the price. Likewise Id have a crack at a python if one attacked me even though the odds are on me losing.

If there was too much of a power gap however between ships it would make game worse for me because a) everyone in a smaller ship would run away and b) I would run away from everyone in a bigger ship. It would become a boring tiered gaming experience of which there are already plenty out there.

 

[CARLOS3]

I should win. Always!

then fly Viper!

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If people have this impression that FD listens to particular group of players and therefore introduces nerfs knows nothing about game design. That way chaos soon would kick in. No one's does that.

Mike Evans and Sandro have done lot of analysis and they know their "endgame" regarding where ships should "land" in the end. Their idea is also that no ship guarantees you being a god in a hull. Of course Python most likely will win most of fights with Viper, but that's not guarantee.

As why ships still get nerfed - because not all elements of the game FD wants to see in are in. Expect nerfs to happen till mid summer. Cobra and Sidewinder haven't got nerfs for very long time now, I expect no big changes in Python from now on too.

So, now you also need not nerf the Phyton more
make.

She's been nerfed to death

 

[CARLOS3]

I don't think he's saying that at all. He's saying the Nu-Python can hold its own against the Viper if flown by a competent pilot. As one of the experienced combat pilots has said earlier. In the hands of a good pilot the Python wins most every time.

a Viper pilot loses against a Phyton,
is a bad pilot!

4 fixed Cannons and behind the Phyton and Boooom
The towers of Phyton are useless.

 

[tagos]

a Viper pilot loses against a Phyton,
is a bad pilot!

4 fixed Cannons and behind the Phyton and Boooom
The towers of Phyton are useless.

I doubt it's that simple but if a Viper pilot is good enough to do that and can mount 4 cannons with the new setup then good luck to him. It's up to Python pilots to learn how to counter it. There will be a way.

 

[CARLOS3]

Some people should understand that grinding to the best ship possible is not the ultimate goal of playing ED. If you make it to your goal, fine do it and have fun with it. But don't complain that the game isn't designed to suit your play style.

Further, the Python and the Asp DOES have better combat capabilities. Just copied numbers from wikia, so I don't know if they are correct, but it should give you the general idea.

Viper: 2 small, 2 medium Hardpoints/Armour 70/Shields 105
Asp: 4 small, 2 medium Hardpoints/Armour 210/Shields 140
Python: 2 medium, 3 large Hardpoints/Armour 260/Shields 260

Now tell me, where do you see less combat capabilities? The Viper has better maneuverability and speed, that's all. You can get outmaneuvered in a Python, but you should still be able to land some devastating shots. Except from this, the Python has a better jumprange, more cargo and can fit more modules. It's clearly the better ship.

but not for the fight.

 

[babelfisch]

but not for the fight.

How about you back your opinion with facts? I have heard plenty times it would be impossible for a python to defeat a viper, yet I am waiting for some videos to proof it.

 

[CARLOS3]

I doubt it's that simple but if a Viper pilot is good enough to do that and can mount 4 cannons with the new setup then good luck to him. It's up to Python pilots to learn how to counter it. There will be a way.

what can make the Phyton pilot ??
he can only fly straight and hope for its towers and these are crap.
what use are in the good weapons suspensions if he never sees the Viper from scratch ??

 

[MrDoe]

I always wonder how many of the people complaining about the python being nerfed to death actually fly one.
And if they do, have they been fighting before or only spacetrucking to get to the python?

These claims of almighty vipers are against everything I experienced before and after 1.1.

 

[CARLOS3]

How about you back your opinion with facts? I have heard plenty times it would be impossible for a python to defeat a viper, yet I am waiting for some videos to proof it.

Of course, he may, if the Viper pilot is so stupid
fly in front of him!

 

[tagos]

what can make the Phyton pilot ??
he can only fly straight and hope for its towers and these are crap.
what use are in the good weapons suspensions if he never sees the Viper from scratch ??

There's a Python pilot in this thread who seems to do fine. Me? I'd turn FA off, use thrusters, use power turning and use shield cells. I only have to hit you once.

 

[Andi]

Why should it take an ace to kill a HAULER in a dedicated FIGHTER craft?

Pythons are supposed to be dead meat against Vipers.

Or rather, were. Now they're scrap.

 

[salad]

Im happy the way it is right now.

Expensive ships should not be an "I WIN" button.

 

[zaccheus44]

Yes, again, until a proper balance is reached. If you want a good pvp and ship vs ship/ships battles, the different options must be made viable. Otherwise everybody would fly only vipers, and that's it with diversity.

We are in this situation because of pa5hological needs for balance. Balancing for ship vs ship combat in a multiplayer game is stupid, it's ruining the game and why I am now no longer playing. In a multiplayer game there should be one on one fighters like the eagle and viper, that are great in dogfights, then large ships, like the python that require 5-10 vipers to make it a close fight...it's supposed to be multiplayer, not one on one. Balance makes this game boring, and recently it took all the fun out of flying python...