Straight up, are combat and exploration professions being made second-class to trading?

[KazumaKat]

Title. I'd love this question answered by Frontier so I'd know where I can stand on this game, and whether or not to put any more time into it without hitting yet another wall of frustration and problems.

I've already stopped playing Elite Dangerous because of all the niggles, problems, frustrations, and outright bull- events I've already had to deal with just playing this game since late Beta.

Let me go down a list of things that I and others see as major problems that simply put the "space trucker" playstyle leagues above and beyond the other playstyles currently possible in ED:

• Bounty-hunting payoffs are highly random, and depending upon payoff, can be ridiculously easy (a 20k Sidewinder? SURE!) to impossibly difficult (Not one bite and the only one is a 50k Anaconda. Really?). Dont get me started on the inconsistent RES spawning too.

• Combat zone payoffs, even with the latest update, are anemic and are barely worth the effort of undocking. For some combat pilots, you'd have to kill several tens of targets just to break even on the cost of fuel used to fly and stay there.

• Fighting outside of combat zones after a bounty with police all around on the same target is actually far more dangerous than taking on the target solo, because of the risk of friendly fire without forgiveness or warning. Dont give me the bull- reasoning of "you're not paying attention to your radar" malarkey. Not one single time I friendly-fired was it even remotely possible for me to even notice the police craft crossing my line of fire by trying to decipher his sig from everyone else's around me at the same time as dodging enemy fire, asteroids, collisions from other police and shooting at the target. Dont even get me started on the risk of police still being able to steal your kills.

• The intial seed money of getting a combat-capable craft able to handle the only kill missions is expensive to newcomers. There are no kill missions for smaller craft or more inexperienced pilots, scaring all but the most masochistic to attempt to kill an Anaconda with a Sidewinder, even if it is possible (and lets be honest, having the only kill missions be Anacondas without warning other than the dubiously large payout is a bit of a move). Why are all the missions that have easier entrypoints to do at are courier and trade jobs only?

• The initial seed money to get an exploration vessel is even more expensive. You're pretty much required to get the Advanced Discovery Scanner, the Detailed Surface Scanner, a fuel scoop and a ship that can travel the large distances on a single jump.

• The glaring lack of ship progression for combat pilots after the Viper. The Cobra is nowhere near capable enough for the hard combat jobs a Viper can do (like singlehandedly taking down Anaconda kill mission targets, of which they are the only available kill mission target thereis), and the price gap between the Viper and anything bigger than a Cobra is absurdly large, and the Asp isnt even worth flying as a combat-capable craft without at least double the hull cost invested into it.

• The insane difficulty of fitting a shield cell bank (of now questionable worth) onto a Viper thanks to the over-nerfing of it that didnt fix the biggest problem of the module in the first place. Now the module is basically worthless on anything but a combat ship because of its lethargic shield healing performance, and the fact you can still fit more than one per ship means that the original problem hasnt been fixed in the slightest, and just made it so that ships like the Eagle and Viper are left out in the cold as to even bother fitting one considering the increased power and munitions costs. It was a direct combat ship nerf when such a nerf wasnt even needed.

And the most glaring problem many of us see:

• From a large range of people I've talked to who play Elite Dangerous of nearly all playstyles, a large majority of traders are the only ones who earn far more than explorers or combat pilots, and are also the only ones who seem to have had any shot at bigger ships with less playtime invested, with less effort invested, and arguably, with more safety than combat or exploration. The only risk a smart trader would have to face is the once-in-a-blue-moon mistake causes ship loss and thereby the loss of a full cargohold, making the cargohold lost cash. Compare that to combat and exploration pilots who suffer far more hull losses in general. Dont even get me started with the anemic payout in combat zones, the bull- risks one has to undetake when bounty hunting, the crashing and many other problems with trying to sell exploration data, the fact that exploration data dont even pay close to bounty-hunting...

Please, Frontier. I just want to know if this game isnt catering to my playstyle anymore so I can move on.

 

[Jaiotu]

Trading has always been a major aspect of every version of Elite. I wouldn't see why Dangerous would be different. Thats not popular with a lot of players.

I actually like trading... I do trading when I have "leisure time" - which is to say while watching a movie or binge watching a tv show. Once you've found a decent trade route you can generally play the game with only 10% of your attention span.

It does get boring though so when I have the time to REALLY devote my attention to the game I either do naval progression missions or head to combat zones. And you're right... they don't pay worth a crap. I spent several hours really enjoying myself in combat but when I got done I realized that if I'd spent the same amount of time trading I could have finally earned enough to buy that Python I've been looking forward to. Instead the amount of money I earned in combat bonds and bounties barely covered the three 'R's... Repair, Reload, Rearm.

Still... was a lot more fun then flying back and forth carrying commodities in my Type 7.

 

[Gavski]

I've already stopped playing Elite Dangerous because of all the niggles, problems, frustrations, and outright bull- events I've already had to deal with just playing this game since late Beta.

I guess you are the only one who can answer the question: to give-up, or not. If you don't enjoy the game as it is, then stop playing. If you want to see what changes come next, then stay. So much has changed even since release, nature of the beast.

I'm loving it all, and the updates, so I stay.

 

[Mohrgan]

You have to avail yourself to all facets of the game to prosper. Trading is where the money is, and that makes sense. There is no reason why a player could cut themselves off from certain aspects of the game and then expect their profitability to stay the same.
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I don't trade much, but when I am heading somewhere I look for some profitable cargo to bring along. There shouldn't be an expectation that one role will be as profitable as any other. It's up to each player to make their way. I am still in a Cobra, because trading doesn't lift my kilt. So I make do with what I can afford with the life style (game play) I enjoy.
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P.S. My Cobra does just fine as a combat ship. I am a mediocre dogfighter, but my Cobra has a few elite anaconda's under it's belt. Your assumptions betray your argument.

 

[Rall]

I don't think it's intentional, more likely just due various constraints. Michael Brookes has already stated several times they are taking a look at the various income streams and ships maintenance cost.

I expect this will be addressed, and I'll bet the next 2 ships are both combat orientated.

 

[AtheosisX]

Trading has always been a major aspect of every version of Elite. I wouldn't see why Dangerous would be different. Thats not popular with a lot of players.

I actually like trading... I do trading when I have "leisure time" - which is to say while watching a movie or binge watching a tv show. Once you've found a decent trade route you can generally play the game with only 10% of your attention span.

It does get boring though so when I have the time to REALLY devote my attention to the game I either do naval progression missions or head to combat zones. And you're right... they don't pay worth a crap. I spent several hours really enjoying myself in combat but when I got done I realized that if I'd spent the same amount of time trading I could have finally earned enough to buy that Python I've been looking forward to. Instead the amount of money I earned in combat bonds and bounties barely covered the three 'R's... Repair, Reload, Rearm.

Still... was a lot more fun then flying back and forth carrying commodities in my Type 7.

This is a fundamental problem with the game that only the diehards seem to think is healthy game design. While I definitely think trading should always be more profitable than every other profession other than mining (which is in a laughably bad state), I think the gap is way to big right now. The main issue is that nothing scales in the same way trading does. There are no truly lucrative activities for more powerful combat ships, nor are there ways to make more money exploring or mining as one upgrades one ship. Basically your income in every other career plateaus exceedingly early, while trading scales massively as you upgrade your ship. It's bad. Period.

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I guess you are the only one who can answer the question: to give-up, or not. If you don't enjoy the game as it is, then stop playing. If you want to see what changes come next, then stay. So much has changed even since release, nature of the beast.

I'm loving it all, and the updates, so I stay.

One could also quit and then come back later. Likely what I'm going to do. I've been playing X3 instead of ED lately.

 

[anikaiful]

This is a fundamental problem with the game that only the diehards seem to think is healthy game design. While I definitely think trading should always be more profitable than every other profession other than mining (which is in a laughably bad state), I think the gap is way to big right now. The main issue is that nothing scales in the same way trading does. There are no truly lucrative activities for more powerful combat ships, nor are there ways to make more money exploring or mining as one upgrades one ship. Basically your income in every other career plateaus exceedingly early, while trading scales massively as you upgrade your ship. It's bad. Period.

That's how trading is. It's lucrative, unless you blow up your ship and cargo - or flunk your routes. Other avenues of income could do with a bit of tweaking, but trading should outshine them with a huge margin (and no, I don't trade often ... I think, not even once in past month or so - have funner things to do in game).

 

[Zanten]

While I do think the other professions could use a boost, how much of a boost is a trickier question. Trading scales not only to your route, but obviously to the size of your cargo hold, and that means that even amongst the profession of traders running the same route there are some pretty hefty gaps in income, depending on the ship you're using to get it done.

For illustration, I have a middling 2600 profit per ton roundtrip route that I can usually accomplish in about 10 minutes, sometimes 12, as I usually handle it in a fairly relaxed manner and no longer stress too badly, meaning I handle docking and travel with less of the min/max uber efficiency I did in my earlier days. (When I piloted a Type 6, I was wound up like a clock, trying to get it all done asquicklyaspossiblegogogogo.) It takes me longer, but I feel more zen-ish, overall. Let's just say the route takes 12 minutes, so I can pull five round trips in an hour. Pulling from Elite Shipyard simulator the stats for the different ship's cargo capacities, while giving each ship the smallest shield generator possible to prevent docking-related hull damage... (these figures do not incorporate fuel costs if you deny yourself the occasional use of a fuel scoop.)

The Cobra has a cargo capacity of 44 tons, allowing an hourly profit of around 572k. As hull repairs are relatively cheap, you could probably get away with foregoing a docking shield, in which case you'd get a maximum of 60 tons, giving an hourly profit of around 780k.
The Type 6 has a cargo capacity of 104, allowing an hourly profit of 1.35 million credits. (In the case of the Asp, the cargo space is 120, a marginal increase.)
The Type 7 has a cargo capacity of 216, allowing an hourly profit of slightly over 2.8 million credits. (The Clipper's is 240, again, a relatively small increase.)
The Python has a cargo capacity of 284, allowing an hourly profit of 3.69 million credits.
The Anaconda has a cargo capacity of 452, allowing an hourly profit of 5.87 million credits.
Finally, the Type 9, the largest dedicated trading ship, has a cargo capacity of 500, allowing an hourly profit of 6.5 million.

Again, this is based on the route time/profit margin I detailed above, and assumed the ship hasn't maximized its cargo storage by foregoing shields altogether.

So, yeah. If the income of the other professions were to be buffed to close the gap a little with the traders, the question is where on that chart are we talking about placing them? Marginally better than a Type 6? Marginally worse? Level of a Type 7? And what challenge and tasks should be expected of the combat pilot to earn these rewards? Even the low-end Type 6 costs a full million before upgrades and cargo are even considered, and the Python is over fifty million, bringing to mind the old adage 'You've got to spend money to make money.' Should the sort of high-end rewards in combat also require a high-end combat ship to handle them, (or at least be balls-bustingly difficult without them,) perhaps involving multiple opponents within the same space? (Or, at least, significantly increasing the reward for taking out those Elite Anaconda missions while inevitably lumping you with one of the 'nightmare ships' I occasionally see forum threads pop up about?)

 

[anikaiful]

<snip>

I think the balance should be strike around price of what you fly. Cheap junk to not be able to do big profits regardless of how much they try. Right now though we have pure fighter craft at the bottom of the "food chain", however - shall see how new ships change that though down the line.

 

[Eagle Eye]

1. If bounty hunting is consistent, nobody would do a combat zone as a nav point/RES would give a much better payout at a consistent rate.
2. The consistency of enemy availability and difficulty level you get from of combat zones is "balanced" by the lower payout it & increased rep earnings.
Does it mean they are perfect at the moment? No, but they are not as broken as you think.

3. Unless your "friendly fire" is with a heavy weapon, police no longer regard stray shots as a reason to immediately attack you. Police kill stealing while present (which is a choice FD made) is very unlikely (if not impossible) if you have hit the target within the last 10 sec (or was it 15 sec) before it is destroyed. I have not lost a bounty to police if I had a single hit in within that window (including on targets where 95% damage is done by the police, I just chip in a shot or 2 before it died and the bounty is mine). I have had it "stolen" before, but that's when I boosted away to regain shield, which took me off the target for more than 15 sec.

4. Yes, they should make available a lower level assasination mission (with Viper/Cobra as target). Combat missions (kill x pirates/trader/authority) is pretty low level though. There are also "mid tier" assasination missions. I have had Imperial Clipper & Federal Dropship assasination targets. Also Orca, but the Orca I suspect is a bug...

5. Yes, the ship you can use a Hauler though.

6. The next 2 ships available next patch (Fer de Lance and Vulture hopefully) should address this. Both are leaning toward combat.

7. I have a 2A SCB on my Viper and 1A SCB on my Eagle, both heal my shields as expected, you just need to factor in the 5 seconds delay. I do not see it as a debilitating nerf as the only drawback I got in my Viper is that I can only fit Class E KWS (instead of C), on Eagle I can not take A sensor & Life Support (reverted to D instead). All 3 downgrade are not major.

8. I would never expect trading income to be anywhere near in line with anything else in a game like this. It's supposed to be your money maker. I am also a Star Citizen backer and early game there I fully expect to do non-stop trading for a few weeks (I am starting at the most basic Aurora) before doing anything else.

 

[anikaiful]

4. Yes, they should make available a lower level assasination mission (with Viper/Cobra as target). Combat missions (kill x pirates/trader/authority) is pretty low level though. There are also "mid tier" assasination missions. I have had Imperial Clipper & Federal Dropship assasination targets. Also Orca, but the Orca I suspect is a bug...

Never got paid for an Orca myself.

 

[mossfoot]

That's how trading is. It's lucrative, unless you blow up your ship and cargo - or flunk your routes. Other avenues of income could do with a bit of tweaking, but trading should outshine them with a huge margin (and no, I don't trade often ... I think, not even once in past month or so - have funner things to do in game).

She's got it right.

This is one way to look at it. Tony Stark and Bruce Wayne don't make money as Iron Man and Batman, their business let them be those people, and though by the time we see them simply living off the profits they had to do a lot of business work before that.

Now I know comic book purists will quibble the point, but I'm simply making an analogy here, not saying it's perfect.

 

[silence please]

My only advice to a happy game session: stop obsessing about the money - just do what you like to do most. Which activity do you enjoy/feel like doing the most at a given moment in the game? Do that. The rest eventually follows.

 

[anikaiful]

My only advice to a happy game session: stop obsessing about the money - just do what you like to do most. Which activity do you enjoy/feel like doing the most at a given moment in the game? Do that. The rest eventually follows.

Indeed ^.^

 

[Jerakeen]

The problem is two fold and addressing either issue would help matters.

Firstly the costs of owning one of the larger ships is prohibitive. One encounter with an Elite Anaconda in an Asp can wipe out an entire evenings bounties even if you win the encounter. I had one such battle which netted me 50k in bounty and a 300k repair bill. To fully upgrade any ship costs between 6 and 7 times the initial "Here I am, come and kill me" spec purchase price and sometimes even more. A fully upgraded Cobra is worth about 9 million which is 23 times the initial price. The Clipper I'm flying now will cost something like 100 million to get it where it needs to be for bounty hunting big prizes and if you want it top shelf it's neared 140 million.


Secondly, the income available doesn't scale as you increase your ship size.

The largest bounty I have seen to date has been 124k for a very well armed and very difficult Elite Anaconda so I'd need to kill about a thousand of those to be able to do the upgrades I want. Needless to say bounties at that level are rare. Much more usually around 30-50k so that makes it 2-3000 kills needed.

The sweet spot seems to be a fully upgraded Cobra which is an achievable price with much more reasonable repair costs. I keep on buying bigger ships but when I want to go out for a fight I always seem to end up back in a Cobra.

Maybe FD want everyone who isn't a dedicated trader to fly those.

 

[Dreadp1r4te]

My only advice to a happy game session: stop obsessing about the money - just do what you like to do most. Which activity do you enjoy/feel like doing the most at a given moment in the game? Do that. The rest eventually follows.

Err, no. I've done some trading here and there; I had to to get the first ship I wanted, the Clipper. I'll have to do it more to get the next ship I want, the Python, in a reasonable amount of time, because the cost of that larger ship is so exorbitant, and the income levels of other professions so paltry, Star Citizen will release before I can afford it unless I trade. The income gap between trading and every other profession is so depressingly, mindbogglingly huge that I can't honestly think of a reason why any other ship type in the game even exists. It is less effort, less risk, and infinitely more profitable.

We're not worried about the money directly, we're worried about how long it will take to get something we want. I'm fine with trading making more money, since the majority vote is that it should, but the gap should not be an order of magnitude at peak levels, assuming that bounty hunting peaks out at 1 mil an hour, thereabouts, and trading in excess of 10 mil an hour with a T9/Anaconda.

 

[Schlack]

Some good points there among the wall of text in relation to balance. As mentioned above FD intend reviewing running costs (asp insurance vs wear and tear costs needs attention) and overhauling rewards. I understand that this will be looked at in the context of a wider overhaul of the mission systems.

That said. Its not all about earning money.
I spent a week attacking authority ships attempting to spark civil war in system. Total monetary rewards: 0. Cost me millions in insurance and repairs ( thanks kamikaze NPCs). Was good fun though.

 

[Aewarin Jameson]

The problem is two fold and addressing either issue would help matters.

Firstly the costs of owning one of the larger ships is prohibitive. One encounter with an Elite Anaconda in an Asp can wipe out an entire evenings bounties even if you win the encounter. I had one such battle which netted me 50k in bounty and a 300k repair bill. To fully upgrade any ship costs between 6 and 7 times the initial "Here I am, come and kill me" spec purchase price and sometimes even more. A fully upgraded Cobra is worth about 9 million which is 23 times the initial price. The Clipper I'm flying now will cost something like 100 million to get it where it needs to be for bounty hunting big prizes and if you want it top shelf it's neared 140 million.


Secondly, the income available doesn't scale as you increase your ship size.

The largest bounty I have seen to date has been 124k for a very well armed and very difficult Elite Anaconda so I'd need to kill about a thousand of those to be able to do the upgrades I want. Needless to say bounties at that level are rare. Much more usually around 30-50k so that makes it 2-3000 kills needed.

The sweet spot seems to be a fully upgraded Cobra which is an achievable price with much more reasonable repair costs. I keep on buying bigger ships but when I want to go out for a fight I always seem to end up back in a Cobra.

Maybe FD want everyone who isn't a dedicated trader to fly those.

I am not suggesting that the balance is right at the moment, however, if you are bounty hunting in an Asp that's your choice. A fully equipped Viper or Cobra is perfectly suited to most encounters. These come at a fraction of the cost but with more risk. I accept that an Asp would be easier to finish the job in but that's the trade off : less risk more costs, or less costs more risk.

Perhaps if pilots had alternative means to acquire ships that may help with the issue - something linked to your faction ratings (to encourage people to play and reward them for their chosen "profession")

 

[Tempus-Fugit]

I like trading. I like the seminal challenge of finding new routes (without using trade tools). Its harder now and so it should be. Some of us prefer IQ over Pew Pew. Not that I don't like combat. My rank is expert through purely doing Anaconda assassination missions I pick up while trading. I also trade in areas where I can raise rep in more than one faction and collect bounties in all factions. If I bump into something juicy in a USS while doing the assassination missions I might even do a little smuggling. While I'm looking for routes I also carry an advanced scanner and scan every undiscovered system I pass through.

In other words I try to be as efficient as possible, using all the opportunities the game presents me to raise my combat, trading and exploration ranks. As a result I'm flying an Anaconda with 100mil spare cash at Tycoon trading rank and expert combat rank. My exploration rank is lagging only being surveyor but I'm planning on doing some expeditions this weekend.

If you focus too much on one aspect of this game (or any game) it will soon become boring. If you take advantage of the variation offered my the game its less boring and much more profitable.

 

[Schlack]

Another point to note. I traded hard to get my a rated asp. As a result I'm a mediocre combat pilot. I read the stories of vipers taking down condas with envy. Would trade cash for skills! Am seriously thinking of trading down to learn.