He is worse than telegraph to his own people. Quite unpopular. Although situation is dire, it's nightmare. But Nuclear war? You might as well start writing articles about Sun suddenly going in a blackout. I don't think that my country sloppy in regard to weapons of mass destruction either. I can elaborate further but that might derail thread easily. So scaremongering I say. If Nuclear War can happen - it will be not at this point.
General / Off-Topic Gorbatchev : Ukraine crsis could trigger Nuclear war.
- Thread starter Pomerlaw
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He is worse than telegraph to his own people. Quite unpopular. Although situation is dire, it's nightmare. But Nuclear war? You might as well start writing articles about Sun suddenly going in a blackout. I don't think that my country sloppy in regard to weapons of mass destruction either. I can elaborate further but that might derail thread easily. So scaremongering I say. If Nuclear War can happen - it will be not at this point.
You are Russian?
Anyway I know they have better detection systems now, so an accidental launch is more remote, but it is still possible. NATO and Russian military are still communicating so that is good too.
Merkell is in Moscow right now. The rumor has the deal they will propose includes federilization of Ukraine... Which is like giving Putin a candy. What is going to prevent him from meddling in other countries, I don'T know. Maybe it is the only solution for now.
I'm not Russian but i do live in Russia. I can tell you that in general Putin has a very high level of support. The Russians may not be happy with everything, but they would much prefer to blame outsiders for problems than one of their own (ie: Putin). This is where the west badly miscalculated. They think if things get tough in Russia it will cause the people to rebel against Putin and usher in a new regime, one more friendly to the west.
Nothing could really be further from the truth. The harder things get here, the more the Russians (aided by the Russian propoganda machine - a well oiled machine on a par with the western propoganda machine) will blame the west for the problems.
In general, everything the west is doing is playing straight into Putin's hands. The tougher things get here, the stronger his position at home becomes.
I've mentioned it several times to my (Russian) wife. Either Putin is an amazing long term strategist, or the western leaders are just plain stupid. Is a tough call... however, one look at David Cameron does make me wonder if the latter is more likely. Who the hell elects a public schoolboy to the position as leader of a country i don't know... those guys are completely emotionally stunted with no grasp of the real life of the common person, yet the common person expects them to look after their interests. And any Labour followers saying hear hear, just look to Milliband, he is cut from the same cloth. They all are! Englands only candidates are a choice between Public Schoolboy #1, Public Schoolboy #2, and... ye gods, Nigel Farage, who is on a par with Russia's Zhelunovski for comedic and risk value. The US is no better either, with a choice between the Democricons and the Republicrats.
Did I have a point? Probably not. Just that everything isn't always as clear as it should be.
Nuclear war? LOL. No. Nobody wants that, not even the war pigs. They want to win. Will there be war.. not likely, at least not direct. We might have some "conflicts" though, just like the whole Falklands "conflict", where we most definitely didn't have a war with Argentina.
Who will suffer from this? Ukraine unfortunately. They have already lost a lot, and will lose more before this finishes. Again, my prophetic powers came to the fore. I said when the whole Maidan business started, Ukraine shouldn't be for Russia or for the west. They should be for themselves. They are in an awesome spot geographically to act as a crossroads between east and west. Instead the country tore itself apart (possibly influenced by agents provocateurs from both east and west) trying to decide whether it wanted to be friends with Europe or Russia most.
This is the biggest shame of them all. Thousands already dead. Thousands more displaced. All because east and west are using Ukraine as a proxy in their own political battles. Obama, Cameron, Putin, Merkel. They are all as guilty as each other for the deaths of children and adults alike.
To them, i dedicate this song...
[video=youtube;OGPD0ZBiMs0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGPD0ZBiMs0[/video]
Nothing could really be further from the truth. The harder things get here, the more the Russians (aided by the Russian propoganda machine - a well oiled machine on a par with the western propoganda machine) will blame the west for the problems.
In general, everything the west is doing is playing straight into Putin's hands. The tougher things get here, the stronger his position at home becomes.
I've mentioned it several times to my (Russian) wife. Either Putin is an amazing long term strategist, or the western leaders are just plain stupid. Is a tough call... however, one look at David Cameron does make me wonder if the latter is more likely. Who the hell elects a public schoolboy to the position as leader of a country i don't know... those guys are completely emotionally stunted with no grasp of the real life of the common person, yet the common person expects them to look after their interests. And any Labour followers saying hear hear, just look to Milliband, he is cut from the same cloth. They all are! Englands only candidates are a choice between Public Schoolboy #1, Public Schoolboy #2, and... ye gods, Nigel Farage, who is on a par with Russia's Zhelunovski for comedic and risk value. The US is no better either, with a choice between the Democricons and the Republicrats.
Did I have a point? Probably not. Just that everything isn't always as clear as it should be.
Nuclear war? LOL. No. Nobody wants that, not even the war pigs. They want to win. Will there be war.. not likely, at least not direct. We might have some "conflicts" though, just like the whole Falklands "conflict", where we most definitely didn't have a war with Argentina.
Who will suffer from this? Ukraine unfortunately. They have already lost a lot, and will lose more before this finishes. Again, my prophetic powers came to the fore. I said when the whole Maidan business started, Ukraine shouldn't be for Russia or for the west. They should be for themselves. They are in an awesome spot geographically to act as a crossroads between east and west. Instead the country tore itself apart (possibly influenced by agents provocateurs from both east and west) trying to decide whether it wanted to be friends with Europe or Russia most.
This is the biggest shame of them all. Thousands already dead. Thousands more displaced. All because east and west are using Ukraine as a proxy in their own political battles. Obama, Cameron, Putin, Merkel. They are all as guilty as each other for the deaths of children and adults alike.
To them, i dedicate this song...
[video=youtube;OGPD0ZBiMs0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGPD0ZBiMs0[/video]
Watching the situation unfold in that part of the world I tend to believe both.
It's astonishing just how incredibly stupid the western leaders are, especially the ruling classes in the US and the UK. They seem hell bent upon creating one crisis after another. Always trying to claim the moral high ground. They learn nothing. They chant the mantra of freedom and democracy so often they don't understand either. (Liberated the freedom loving people of Kuwait).
I am and I feel strongly disagree with you. Better detection systems? You mean better corruption schemes and faster ways to steal money while claiming that some imaginary invasion force will kill you all? Great communication, yeah. Claiming that Russia is World threat while building bases, moving troops, opening military training camps all over our border. It's just probably really hard to stop while you filling your pockets under scaremongering banner. Even if it's WW3 as a result. Putin is not the saint but there is no need for west whitewashing either.
Great support for Putin - true. Not happy with everything - true. Blame outsiders? Disagree. It's not about blaming outsiders, it's about 90's. It was horrible here after USSR fell and nobody wants that anymore. This is what you get if you squabble among your own while you have more urgent problems to face. And right now people here prefer to stand united rather than indulge in internal conflict. I've seen that protest meetings against Putin some time earlier. And there's huge change with new opposition among people in Russia now (not politics but simple folks who are disagree with how things are). We learned to protest in civilized manner. I saw it. There is frustration, there is corruption, there is things that people want to change. But nobody want crazy Maidan here with burning tires, murder and chaos. It's just that simple. We had our crazy 90's, that's enough.
So yeah. Nobody in the sane state of mind here going to criticize Putin or government while EU and US impose sanctions, while NATO is getting cozy deploying rockets on our border and some presidents calling our country a global threat. Yeah, "global threat" from somebody who keep murdering innocents in middle east and keep overlooking/supporting genocide. Yeah, people here are not agree with everything we have but it's not the time for squabbling among ourselves. Too many people here personally saw what it might lead to. Total lawless chaos. Thanx Gorby and Yeltsin for that.
I really hope some sane person will emerge after all.
Cameron, Merkel, Holland and the others western leaders, are under the orders of the United States. And Putin is not under the orders of the United States. This is a problem.
No global nuclear war, hope that the leaders of the world are not crazy to do that. But localized nuclear explosions could be possible. I read that Putin could use the mini nuclear bombs on the battlefield if he could not win a battle with the conventional weapons
What a bunch of Armchair Generals....I do Gorby's windows and Raisa confirmed
that Gorby said "They're itchin to push the button!"
And all their 'arsenal' is beyond it's 'Detonate before use by date'....
- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -
+rep for the cold Facts....
that Gorby said "They're itchin to push the button!"
And all their 'arsenal' is beyond it's 'Detonate before use by date'....
- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -
+rep for the cold Facts....
What? Nonsense. And I will elaborate why. There is no Russian troops in Ukraine simply because if they were - "war" would be over a long time ago. It's just that simple. But keep in mind that majority of male population in Russia are military trained. They all served at least a few years, some been in the conflict zones and have actual combat experience. That's the law here, you have to serve in the army. And there is a lot of rebel sympathisers in Russia who might go to fight for them. But surely it's not the government initiative and I don't think that government will support that, especially with mini-nukes. That's just silly. There's simply no reason for Russia to fight. With mini-nukes.
And whatever you might think - Ukraine is still considered a sister nation among Russians. Only brainwashed person (and there's a lot of it around the TV and press of all kinds) will think that we are the enemies. We are not. We share same history, a lot of us speak the same language, most of us believe in the same ideals. And this war in Ukraine is even more painful tragedy because of that. This is just totally insane.
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It was not my personal opinion (minis nuclear bombs), I reported just what I read. No Russian troops in Ukraine ? I want to believe it. But the weapons ? Lance Katyusha rockets ? T80 tanks ? Surface to air missiles ?
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No Russian troops in Ukraine ? I want to believe it. But the weapons ? Lance Katyusha rockets ? T80 tanks ? Surface to air missiles ?
That I don't know. There might be Russian weapons/volunteers there or there might not. I don't really know but then again there's still a lot of Soviet grade equipment both on Ukrainian and Russian sides of the border... And it's not making things easier. But troops? Like actual military regiments? Doubt that. It will be whole different story then otherwise.
I just hope that this disaster will end soon and innocent lives stop being wasted. I really don't understand what stopping everyone from coming to some sensible agreement. It's just horrible! And same happening in a lot of other countries too. It needs to stop. This is some kind of global WW3 without nukes actually. There's plenty of food, land and resources for everyone. We should be settling other planets by now, expanding, evolving to something better... But for some stupid reason we still fight over scraps and indulge in petty conflicts and wars. Such a shame.
Whilst I don't really want to turn up the heat on this very divisive topic I feel I have to stand up a bit for our western leaders and system (I am a UK citizen). There are a lot of anti-western sentiments on internet forums, many of the most vitriolic is from westerners themselves, and this is in many ways a positive sign; we obviously feel confident enough to criticise our own systems and don't club together to bury our heads in the sands and say it is everyone else's fault, such as often happens in more authoritarian countries. However, I do feel that many of our internal critics really need to get out into the world a bit more and visit places were the economy and government simply doesn't function, where you have to bribe local officials and police and anyone govt-related just to get them to do their jobs. Where natural disasters cause many multiples of the death toll you get for similar-scale events in the west because property developers bribed local officials to ignore planning and building regulations and so that everything is built way below a safe standard.
People always try and blame America or the old imperial countries for the poverty of the third/developing world, especially people like Robert Mugabe of Zimbabwe who has overseen the transformation of his own country from a 'relatively' successful agrarian economy into a famine-ridden basket case, and still tries to claim it is the Uk's fault. After 35 years, that old garbage is wearing thin. Putin likes to blame the west too, but Russia would be in a much better position today if he'd spent his time in office rehabilitating Russian industry and commerce while the oil price was high, but he was too dependant on the oligarchs who own and extract Russia's natural resources and who have spent their fortunes on yachts and foreign properties rather then investing domestically. It's funny that when the sanctions were announced he was laughing at them, and now he's trying to blame the economic situation on those same sanctions. You can't have it both ways, Vlad. If the oil price was still high, those sanctions wouldn't have made a damn bit of difference, but that's what you get when your country's economy is a one-trick pony.
If there is one criticism I can really level at The West it is that we don't have the confidence or necessary understanding of our own claimed beliefs. We've made a mess of Afghanistan and Iraq and have now helped worsen the situation in Syria, Libya and Egypt by giving moral encouragement to liberal dissent without being willing to back up words with actions. We have consistently failed to appreciate, that what makes state institutions functional and responsive to the needs of their citizens is a habit and culture of good government which evolves over decades (maybe centuries) through the medium of popular pressure and reform. It cannot be imposed from outside by just building a few bridges and holding elections, which are an effect and not a cause, of good governance. We bang on about our 'freedoms' but are more then willing to throw them away when the entirely fictitious threat of terrorism comes calling, hence illegal rendition, guantanamo bay and punishment without trial, to guard against a threat that, in the West, killed fewer people in total since the year 2000 then died by choking on their own food. We should learn to leave well alone or get properly stuck in, and not these messy half-measures we always adopt.
People always try and blame America or the old imperial countries for the poverty of the third/developing world, especially people like Robert Mugabe of Zimbabwe who has overseen the transformation of his own country from a 'relatively' successful agrarian economy into a famine-ridden basket case, and still tries to claim it is the Uk's fault. After 35 years, that old garbage is wearing thin. Putin likes to blame the west too, but Russia would be in a much better position today if he'd spent his time in office rehabilitating Russian industry and commerce while the oil price was high, but he was too dependant on the oligarchs who own and extract Russia's natural resources and who have spent their fortunes on yachts and foreign properties rather then investing domestically. It's funny that when the sanctions were announced he was laughing at them, and now he's trying to blame the economic situation on those same sanctions. You can't have it both ways, Vlad. If the oil price was still high, those sanctions wouldn't have made a damn bit of difference, but that's what you get when your country's economy is a one-trick pony.
If there is one criticism I can really level at The West it is that we don't have the confidence or necessary understanding of our own claimed beliefs. We've made a mess of Afghanistan and Iraq and have now helped worsen the situation in Syria, Libya and Egypt by giving moral encouragement to liberal dissent without being willing to back up words with actions. We have consistently failed to appreciate, that what makes state institutions functional and responsive to the needs of their citizens is a habit and culture of good government which evolves over decades (maybe centuries) through the medium of popular pressure and reform. It cannot be imposed from outside by just building a few bridges and holding elections, which are an effect and not a cause, of good governance. We bang on about our 'freedoms' but are more then willing to throw them away when the entirely fictitious threat of terrorism comes calling, hence illegal rendition, guantanamo bay and punishment without trial, to guard against a threat that, in the West, killed fewer people in total since the year 2000 then died by choking on their own food. We should learn to leave well alone or get properly stuck in, and not these messy half-measures we always adopt.
Sorry Dogmeat, respectfully, your argument boils down to, since we can criticise, we shouldn't.
Few can doubt that other societies are more restrictive and often much poorer than ours. Our freedoms were won over centuries of struggle. Our wealth is the product of hundreds of years of clever financial management.
Trying to impose these benefits onto societies which don't have them is pointless. The consequences of all the attempts to impose democracy onto the ME is the obscenity of Iraq and the outrage of Egypt.
Russia has a long history of maintaining buffer states around itself. The west's presumption that it could simply encompass Ukraine into its sphere of influence then act with such feigned surprise when Russia reacted deserves criticism from any right thinking person.
Only 2 days ago, a bomb went off in Ukraine which produced a mushroom cloud, such was its magnitude. Ordinary working people are being bombed out of their homes to live in the snow and cold, while our own dear BBC news carries stories of some US TV Newsreader loosing his job and our papers worry about how much TV companies are paying to broadcast Football.
We can criticise and we should. Others don't have that luxury. If we don't then we are betraying not just ourselves but them.
Few can doubt that other societies are more restrictive and often much poorer than ours. Our freedoms were won over centuries of struggle. Our wealth is the product of hundreds of years of clever financial management.
Trying to impose these benefits onto societies which don't have them is pointless. The consequences of all the attempts to impose democracy onto the ME is the obscenity of Iraq and the outrage of Egypt.
Russia has a long history of maintaining buffer states around itself. The west's presumption that it could simply encompass Ukraine into its sphere of influence then act with such feigned surprise when Russia reacted deserves criticism from any right thinking person.
Only 2 days ago, a bomb went off in Ukraine which produced a mushroom cloud, such was its magnitude. Ordinary working people are being bombed out of their homes to live in the snow and cold, while our own dear BBC news carries stories of some US TV Newsreader loosing his job and our papers worry about how much TV companies are paying to broadcast Football.
We can criticise and we should. Others don't have that luxury. If we don't then we are betraying not just ourselves but them.
They have elected one, twice.
Actually it boils down to 'don't elevate self-criticism to the level of perverse self-flagellation, and try and keep a sense of proportion'. I just re-read what I wrote; and that's the impression I just gave myself.
The above is repeating almost exactly what I wrote...apart from the bit about 'clever financial management'. It was innovation that created our wealth; innovation by people who were free from tight control over their lives by their political masters.
The western powers used to have a long history of invading weaker nations and exploiting their natural and human resources. We don't think that kind of behaviour is acceptable or advantageous any more. Why should we then think it's ok for Russia to behave like a colonial power to it's neighbours? I wonder what your definition of a 'right-thinking person' is? It's not like we desperately desire Ukraine to be part of the EU, either; we have enough difficulty assimilating the ex-communist economies that are already members. It was the Ukrainians themselves who wanted closer ties to Europe, and Russia; ever the playground bully, didn't like that.
Yes, and a few months ago a planeload of people that had nothing to do with the conflict was shot down because Mr Putin gave some big toys to people who shouldn't have been trusted with them. I wonder how that was portrayed in the Russian media? Are you really that surprised that the media carry trivial stories about other parts of the media? What is your point here?
It is our patriotic duty to criticise our own systems when they don't work; I just don't feel that gratuitous criticism achieves anything constructive. I also think your overview of world economic events, quoted by Silent_Star above, betrays a habit of oversimplification and personalisation that suggests you haven't really understood those events much. America became powerful largely because of industry, not oil. Your narrative of 'astonishing incompetence', 'stuffy arrogance' and 'pretentious hubris' sounds itself like the lazy arrogance of a comfortable westerner who doesn't want to appreciate the real complexities of international politics and wants to put everything down to 'our leaders are rubbish; blame everything on them'. This is a very fashionable position right now, in the west.
If I were a betting man, my money would be on China; you wouldn't get odds on anyone else. Income per capita may remain higher in the US than in China for many generations yet but the US won't be dominant for much longer. If history teaches anything; it is that the power of nations and empires is cyclical, and if anything those cycles seem to be increasing in frequency. Who knows how long China has at the top?
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Thank you for supporting polite way of discussion. We don't have to agree on everything but we should be polite and respectful of each other. This is the only way to have a meaningful conversation.
I hope you don't truly believe that. Because bullying of 3/4 of the world by 1/4 of ruthless colonial powers isn't something that you can call "innovation". And it didn't stopped because somebody said so and wrote some "corrected" history books about that. It still quite valid, it happens right now in Ukraine, Iraq, Afghanistan... There's countless countries with puppet governments controlled by colonial masters and acting in the interest of the masters and not their own people. It happened before and it will continue today. It didn't started from the "west", it's old like human nature itself and quite possibly might predate Roman Empire itself. But it is something that capitalist countries adapted quite well. Just look at the ongoing conflicts and look at the companies that getting their gain from it? Whom are they belong?
And surely you know the truth. Because you been there and saw it for yourself while Mr Puting were secretly supplying separatist forces with weapons. Maybe you saw him shooting down the plane too?
At least formal doubt would be in order. Saying that somebody is personally or indirectly responsible for such crimes while you don't have any proof might be considered disrespectful. And not to Mr Putin. I'm not a fanboy of Mr Putin but nowadays he is somehow personally responsible for everything. And while you hastily throwing accusations you forget that it's not a crusade against Putin or Russia. We need to stop murder of innocents, we need to find the truth and get war criminals to the trial. For the sake of those who suffered and already died from injustice. And it's not about your or mine personal likes or dislikes. It's not about some personal political interests either. We need to stop that worldwide violence because otherwise we just going to kill ourselves sooner or later in the last final war. And if we don't want that to happen - we need to stop "liberating" countries because they are not democratic enough, because they need our "help" with their resources, because they all "bad guys" and so on. It seems to me that our society started to forget lessons of WW2. Or just didn't learned anything at all.