Why are traders playing Open Play?

[Gizardpuke]

Just to be clear, Alt-F4 or Save and Quit in the middle of combat is considered illegal from the dev. If you happened to encounter this, make sure you have screenshots of the CMDR's name and report them. Eventually, their account will be flagged. I said eventually...

i cannot see how "save and quit" is illegal. cause of it was, then we're all in trouble.
whether its in combat or not.

alt-F4 sure. but not save and quit. the fact it can be used in combat is a problem of FD, not the player. cause i'd have thought it would be locked. but clearly not.

 

[Mugshot]

Just to be clear, Alt-F4 or Save and Quit in the middle of combat is considered illegal from the dev. If you happened to encounter this, make sure you have screenshots of the CMDR's name and report them. Eventually, their account will be flagged. I said eventually...

I linked the dev thread on this, do you really read it like that ?
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=105778

 

[Masta Squidge]

There are some human players who think a game is only a game when they are killing real players rather than npcs. n

You know... I am so used to MMO style games, where I see tons of players all the time, that when I only see NPCs I do in fact feel like I am playing a "dead" game, or that something is missing - the game just feels incomplete. Trading NPC goods, or shooting NPCs, feels like I am not contributing anything at all to the world around me.

Unfortunately, that's just how this game is going to be. There is no way, even if we had a million players, that each system would be well populated.

If I had a nice storyline mission arc to follow, that would be great. Sadly, the game just isn't setup to allow for item rewards... you have no way of keeping personal items with you. Even if there were personal items, who's gonna want to take up a cargo slot on them?


The itemization system with modules needs an overhaul I think, but that's just me. It would be nice to be able to buy and transport modules from one place to another. Maybe make that part of the trading?

 

[Chris M Fortune]

So, I interdict a trader and he runs, I shoot and shoot to cause damage. How else will they learn to respect the C.O.D.E and pirates in general. This has been my point for some time, it's cheaper for traders to pay the tax than it is to run the gauntlet. Calling them traders is a joke, obviously it's better to pay. Sometimes it's necessary.

Well I would propose a counter code if you like: The Traders Way:- Run if you cant beat them and run as fast as you can. My life work is to make pirates starve !!!

I do agree though with the logging off being an issue, there are some instances where it may be forgivable as in real life issues but to use it as a gameplay tactic is sad, very sad.

 

[DaveB]

It's all fine and well, but the game punishes you for trying to communicate. Shooting first is the most logical way of pirating, as you need to down the shields to launch the limpets, and you only have a handful of seconds to do that before the target jumps away. Of course that is if the pirate isn't mass locking the prey. If he is, there is no room for diplomacy: the pirate just takes the entire cargo (or however much he can carry), he's probably in a situation to demand it.
I hope when FD fix the submission cooldown it will make more sense to talk first. But until your shields are down, you can't tell if the guy is interested in your cargo or just blowing you up.

By the time my shields are down I'm already likely to have made the decision to leave or fight to the death. If you're flying a ship big enough to mass-lock me, our speed and maneuverability are probably well enough matched that it won't be a sure thing for you to stay in range.

Even if the cooldown goes higher than it currently is, I'm carrying enough of a shield and strong enough SCBs to probably survive your fire long enough to jump out, even if I do so with hull damage. If your ship is clearly superior to mine that is probably what I'll be trying to do, while returning fire of course. It's to your advantage to open comms and cease fire if I respond and do likewise. I'll happily negotiate for a reduced cost in exchange for you getting the cargo abandoned rather than jettisoned as stolen, so we both get out of there with more profits and we don't face as hefty a repair bill or ammo cast from the encounter.

If you're not running any software or hardware that will allow you to macro your "declaration of piracy" and send it quickly, preferably without taking your hands off your combat controls, get it. As a trader, without comms - even if they happen while you're already shooting - I have no choice but to assume that you're out for PvP action and kills not cargo. Of course I will respond accordingly, with fire, escape attempts and even ramming as a last resort. The only difference between those traders encountered by the OP and I is that I don't consider logoffski to be a valid response under those circumstances and have chosen my ship and loadout accordingly. I plan on being able to defend what I'm hauling and have successfully done so on several occasions.

It's not on me to open comms with you, if you're acting like what you really want is to gank me it's on you to tell me different and if you expect me to cooperate act like me doing so wouldn't be suicide.

 

[Daisuke-kun]

i cannot see how "save and quit" is illegal. cause of it was, then we're all in trouble.
whether its in combat or not.

alt-F4 sure. but not save and quit. the fact it can be used in combat is a problem of FD, not the player. cause i'd have thought it would be locked. but clearly not.

Even though it is the problem of the FD, it does not means we can abuse it all we want. If they said it is illegal to do, then it is possible it is a function we shouldn't be using when in combat and you don't want your ship to be destroyed. It is no different from Alt-F4 because you are trying to escape death.

 

[Daisuke-kun]

I linked the dev thread on this, do you really read it like that ?
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=105778

Must have misread the middle part. This only means that Save and Quit does not mean escaping death and there is a delay. Unless they don't know what is going on with Quit and Save, I do not know to and I have to place my bet on "no different from Alt-F4" but with more steps to go through tio make it look more legal.

 

[Negative Entropy]

I really wish that Multi-player was never introduced, we would definitely have a better and more involved game if they had just ignored the norm.

wow. self-centered much?

so, if I understand you right:

a) you wish there was no multi-player, effectively everyone forced to solo

b) but as there IS multi-player, you demand to play in open instead of solo, and change the game so that it works more like solo/groups

in other words you just don't want those who are after PvP to play ED

 

[kurush]

My cat approves. Another 3.14ssed of griefer.

 

[Kayweg]

If they're still in a type 6, they're already so far behind the race, they might as well quit.

Absolutely right.

On top of that, they wouldn't mess around with fluctuating profits in an overrun area like Yembo, but stick to their profitable established routes.

 

[Oddity]

really wish that Multi-player was never introduced, we would definitely have a better and more involved game if they had just ignored the norm.

I really wish PvP was never introduced into a game with such manifold ways of playing unfair. The Universal Defensive Manoeuvre aka Logoffski is only the simplest way, activating firewall rules per hotkey to interrupt the peer-to-peer communication (but not the server uplink) is step 2.

I assume you guys know the combat simulation is computed all on the client side? About as resistant to manipulation as an old-school single-player game? (if sceptical, google.) Wait until the guides for frozen hull health spread. Or, more subtle, 30% more outgoing and 50% less incoming damage? The UDM/Logoffski discussion poisoning the community might appear quite harmless then.

TL;DR: we need an equalisation for traders to play in the cold waters of open mode or most won't. We need a counter against UDM/Logoffski. Trouble is, that won't help if there are many alternatives left unaddressed.

 

[kneg]

Perhaps pirating should have more dire consequences?

What about giving the traders the possibility to manually raise the bounty of the pirate?
And when the pirate is shot down, the bounty is reduced by the pirate ship insurance cost and the bounty hunter gets that amount of credits. In addition, the pirate can not get rid of that bounty by paying it off by himself.

 

[TannakaObi]

Perhaps pirating should have more dire consequences?

What about giving the traders the possibility to manually raise the bounty of the pirate?
And when the pirate is shot down, the bounty is reduced by the pirate ship insurance cost and the bounty hunter gets that amount of credits. In addition, the pirate can not get rid of that bounty by paying it off by himself.

The only thing I would change is the option to pay of a murder bounty. It should be a 24 hour countdown from the last kill before you can pay it off.

The best solution in my opinion would be to remove group mode and instead have PvP mode, pve mode and solo. Also some form of guild system would go hand in hand.

I'm not sure why they tried to change a tried and tested mmo method for something else.

 

[alexnode]

Pirates should be hunted and eliminated like vermin. Hanged in Trafalgar square. They shouldn't have any rights in the game. They are criminals
I don't think they should be allowed in the official forum too ... They shouldn't allowed to use computers either.

It is a big problem with the design of the game - you have pirates and bounty hunters - explorers and traders ... and 5 miners.
Death in the game is a complete disaster if you fly anything above cobra ... I might have 1200 systems from my exploration journey and a pew-pew &^%%head will try to kill me . That means three weeks of play lost ... I won't only save and exit but i will hack the servers and put a virus in his machines if I could.

 

[DYSEQTA]

I love how people assume that because I think criminals are scum I must be someone who combat logs. Interesting leap that... seems to me you are all just looking for someone to attack.

1. I play open exclusively
2. I play self-imposed Ironman
3. I have never Alt-F4'ed or employed any exploit
4. I fight, I trade, I mine, I explore, I smuggle, I don't pirate

If it weren't a complete waste of Frontier's time I would ask them to do a DB query on my account and confirm that for you apparently rather sensitive sooks. You want to play criminals yet not be referred to as scum? What should I call you then? Gentlemen?

Consider the following questions:

• If you enter my home, put a gun to my head, and demand money are you a criminal?
• If you hack my account in an online game and steal my virtual items are you a criminal?
• If you attack me in an online game, put a gun to my head, and steal my virtual items are you a criminal?

There is a big difference between playing a criminal in a game where those you are offending are virtual entities (NPCs) and playing a criminal in a game where those you are offending are other players. When the game enables that behaviour (which it does right now by not treating criminals accordingly) rather than deterring it, then there is a problem. The problem isn't with the players, it's with the game mechanics.

 

[Dogoncrook]

Perhaps pirating should have more dire consequences?

What about giving the traders the possibility to manually raise the bounty of the pirate?
And when the pirate is shot down, the bounty is reduced by the pirate ship insurance cost and the bounty hunter gets that amount of credits. In addition, the pirate can not get rid of that bounty by paying it off by himself.

If you are in the camp that thinks a trade ship should be able to survive in a hostile area then no amount of tweaking short of removing PvP is going to make you happy.

 

[BlackReign]

In the last ten minutes in Yembo, 4 type six transports have Alt-F4'ed on me. Why are you even playing in Open Play? This ticks me off so much, go play on solo if you can't take piracy.

How do you know they f4'd?

 

[Dogoncrook]

I love how people assume that because I think criminals are scum I must be someone who combat logs. Interesting leap that... seems to me you are all just looking for someone to attack.

1. I play open exclusively
2. I play self-imposed Ironman
3. I have never Alt-F4'ed or employed any exploit
4. I fight, I trade, I mine, I explore, I smuggle, I don't pirate

If it weren't a complete waste of Frontier's time I would ask them to do a DB query on my account and confirm that for you apparently rather sensitive sooks. You want to play criminals yet not be referred to as scum? What should I call you then? Gentlemen?

Consider the following questions:

• If you enter my home, put a gun to my head, and demand money are you a criminal?
• If you hack my account in an online game and steal my virtual items are you a criminal?
• If you attack me in an online game, put a gun to my head, and steal my virtual items are you a criminal?

There is a big difference between playing a criminal in a game where those you are offending are virtual entities (NPCs) and playing a criminal in a game where those you are offending are other players. When the game enables that behaviour (which it does right now by not treating criminals accordingly) rather than deterring it, then there is a problem. The problem isn't with the players, it's with the game mechanics.

Ahh so we should worry about your feelings in game but you have license to offend anyone you disagree with on the forums. No the problem most certainly is with the players and you are a shining example.

 

[Masta Squidge]

I love how people assume that because I think criminals are scum I must be someone who combat logs. Interesting leap that... seems to me you are all just looking for someone to attack.

1. I play open exclusively
2. I play self-imposed Ironman
3. I have never Alt-F4'ed or employed any exploit
4. I fight, I trade, I mine, I explore, I smuggle, I don't pirate

If it weren't a complete waste of Frontier's time I would ask them to do a DB query on my account and confirm that for you apparently rather sensitive sooks. You want to play criminals yet not be referred to as scum? What should I call you then? Gentlemen?

Consider the following questions:

• If you enter my home, put a gun to my head, and demand money are you a criminal?
• If you hack my account in an online game and steal my virtual items are you a criminal?
• If you attack me in an online game, put a gun to my head, and steal my virtual items are you a criminal?

There is a big difference between playing a criminal in a game where those you are offending are virtual entities (NPCs) and playing a criminal in a game where those you are offending are other players. When the game enables that behaviour (which it does right now by not treating criminals accordingly) rather than deterring it, then there is a problem. The problem isn't with the players, it's with the game mechanics.

1: yes.
2: technically no, but the company that runs the game is free to claim for damages.
3: Are you serious? No. You being offended is the least of anyone's concerns. Seriously dude, if you don't like piracy, don't subject yourself to it. If you don't attack players and you don't want to be attacked by them, you have no reason to play open whatsoever. The game is completely identical otherwise.


ANd I never said you combat log, i said you are a stain on the community for your personal attacks on people for playing in a manner which you don't like, but is entirely intended to be a part of the game.

 

[DaveB]

Perhaps pirating should have more dire consequences?

What about giving the traders the possibility to manually raise the bounty of the pirate?
And when the pirate is shot down, the bounty is reduced by the pirate ship insurance cost and the bounty hunter gets that amount of credits. In addition, the pirate can not get rid of that bounty by paying it off by himself.

These have all been proposed before. I'm not a pirate but even I can see that this would be too harsh on folks playing a supported style of play.

Pirates ALREADY have it hard, they make little money, they have to consider a higher proportion of their ships value for running costs because they have to expect to be shot up a few times by cops, bounty hunters and their prey. In addition it is HARD for a pirate to be successful enough to be ABLE to pay off bounties unless they have a legitimate job in another play-style, somewhere where they are not being hunted.

Whether you mean it to or not, the measures you are proposing suffer from the conflation of PvP killers with pirates, they are two different things. Any tweaks to the mechanic by FD have to be more nuanced than that and need to distinguish between the pirate, that only shoots when he has to, to enforce his demands, and the ganker who only wants to blow up their target anyway. Both would qualify as "gameplay styles that are supported but carry an in-game penalty" but the kinds of penalties and/or how they are applied need to be different.