The timer is worse than pointless...

[QziQza]

And, as the OP said, that's utter nonsense! "Let's leave the time at 0:06 forever"??? NO!!!!! The asymptotic nature of the deceleration is shocking, and the problem is that the time to the destination EXCLUDES the 1Mm bubble into which you can safely exit SC. Especially outside of gravity wells, we should be capable of decelerating properly to our destination.

While FD have tried to adhere closely to known physics models, they have also had to get a little creative with them. the discussion here isnt about what we should be able to do in terms of entry or exit from a theoretical state, but at the way a timer displays. As for the timer sitting at 0.06 forever.. if thats happening for you, maybe you need to reboot your game as the time to target is finite and forever is well.. infinite. Also deceleration is deceleration, it is what it is, maybe you mean the mechanic to decelerate should be different, or maybe you would like them to change the physics behind the mechanic? That would only mean changing a rule within the model they are using, which would then automatically change many other mechanics that are also dependant on that same rule within that model. But hey, im sure they wont have an issue doing that, i mean it only took them 2 or 3 years to fine tune the model they have now. they could always go down the route of fixing something that isnt broken, you know, because some players cant grasp the concept, or because others cant accept the fact that they have to implement various mathmatical processes to smooth out or simplyfiy many values, or even totally ignore some theoretical models all together as aside from an increased processing workload on this massive dynamic environment, they propably wouldnt really add a whole lot to it either.

 

[Gorf]

I've repped your OP because I understand why you think it is pointless. A few weeks ago, before I posted a similar topic, I realised why it works after I'd thought about it: It's as good as any other measure. Replacing it with a bar with a target line still give you the ETA, but as a bar graph and not a number.

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The number does have an actual meaning - the time it will take to arrive at the target if speed did not change. We know that speed changes constantly, and not always because of throttle input, but it's a measurement with a meaning, and a measurement with a use. You do it every day - you know that if you want to get to school or work by a certain time, you need to leave the house at that time minus x. x is a variable depending on what time of day you are travelling, weather conditions, chance of pirate interdictions, school holiday traffic etc, but you only use it as a guideline. It's extremely rare that this optimal delta time actually results in an arrival at the required time.

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You need some sort of "sweet zone" indicator of when your speed and distance combination is going to give you the best approach. The one number that comes out of a combination of these two measurements is ETA. Yes, the indicated ETA in no way describes the actual amount of flight time you have left before you drop out of SC, but that doesn't matter because that's not the use you're putting it to.

 

[Valan]

No different to progress bars that have part of computing forever. Completely pointless but they're a comfort thing for users. The timer is the same thing until you hit the distance bar on the left. User feedback HCI 101

 

[QziQza]

I feel we might be derailling this thread a little now, but at the same time discussing alternatives can't be that off topic tbh - and fair play to you for apologising for the tone - you don't get that a lot on the interwebs

I enjoy piloting the ships, and I enjoy SC - I would enjoy it *more* if I could see the effects of gravity better than just a general "oh, my ship won't go quite as fast anymore" - imagine seeing the vector approach twist/be pulled in a direction according to how close you pass to a planetary mass - I'd have thought that without changing SC's core attributes this would be a great addition, much more interesting than a simple countdown timer and a blue dot.

Also my recommendation that it would be an optional module would mean that it (to some degree) would be a small sacrifice in terms of either cargo or ship performance, and would be totally optional. Different cost level modules could even give more/less detail and information.

I dunno, I just can't seen any downsides to the idea, tbh - though "gwyn a gwel y fran ei chyw", or "the crow always sees it's offspring as white", if you get my translated Welsh idiom...

i can understand what you are suggesting, but they havnt long implemented being able to turn off the orbit lines in the ui, your suggestion is to fill it all back up with more lol, the best part of this game for me is flying in the expanse of space, that means being able to enjoy the view as much as getting from a - b, adding that kind of extra visual, to something you can learn and already adapt to, to me, would be taking something away from the play rather than adding to it. you cant see thermals or updrafts when you are piloting a glider, you just have to understand the physics behind them, where they occur, and then learn how to put them to use. It is no different in ED, they are using a stable model built on specific rules, learn those rules and how they apply and you can make use of them, sometimes they arnt always as expected, but then thats no different to gliding either and adds to the fun.



sorry knew i forgot something.. +rep for the idiom in Welsh "waehae the Scots, the Welsh and the Irish"

 

[OnePercent]

You don't get it.

The ETA timer is acurate. it's just that it doesn't take into account your dynamic and ever changing velocity. The ETA timer only works on a "WHAT IS THE CURRENT SPEED" basis.

Autothrottle and the supercruise speed slow down around planets etc constantly change your speed, This helps you get from A to B easily without overshooting your mark. The timer calculates when you'll get to Point A going at speed X, if you keep that speed the timer is correct, you will arrive at the destination, But autothrottle is always engaged, thus there is a sweet spot at 6:00 seconds, which is caused by the cancelling effect of autothrottle and the ETA timer working.

 

[BennyBoyW]

Have you ever seen the download progress bar when you are downloading large files ? This view of time remaining varies depending on how fast your connection is at that particular second.
OP - Why aren't you on the Microsoft forum flaming about that ? It's just the same as the ETA timer in ED in a lot of ways.

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In fact the more I think about it, the more I realise that this is one of the most pointless rage threads I have ever seen

 

[QziQza]

No different to progress bars that have part of computing forever. Completely pointless but they're a comfort thing for users. The timer is the same thing until you hit the distance bar on the left. User feedback HCI 101

it isnt a pointless value! it is just 1 of 3 values used to calculate our travel.. we use acceleration, time and distance, each of those values is very relevant in that calculation. in a car we use miles or km p/h, we tend to think in terms of an average speed over the total journey and calculate a time to destination from that, it is never any more than an approximation, as we never account for acceleration or deceleration. In ED we rarely travel at a fixed speed, distance can vary immensly as we are on no fixed trajectory, as such time is also going to vary greatly. the mathematics behind it are sound, the way in which it is represented is simple and accurate for what it is.

The problem isnt the value or even the timer, it is the fact that most people are used to working on time to destination as a single aproximated value instead of an ever changing value dependant on other factors. thats an issue for the individual to sort out for themselves not ED to draw it in crayons for them.

 

[OnePercent]

Have you ever seen the download progress bar when you are downloading large files ? This view of time remaining varies depending on how fast your connection is at that particular second.
OP - Why aren't you on the Microsoft forum flaming about that ? It's just the same as the ETA timer in ED in a lot of ways.

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In fact the more I think about it, the more I realise that this is one of the most pointless rage threads I have ever seen

Exactly, this is a fundamental problems with all systems with dynamic changing velocities and momentum whilst viewing an ETA timer.

 

[TriumphANT]

Have you ever seen the download progress bar when you are downloading large files ? This view of time remaining varies depending on how fast your connection is at that particular second.
OP - Why aren't you on the Microsoft forum flaming about that ? It's just the same as the ETA timer in ED in a lot of ways.

Hey, I work in IT! I've moaned about Microsoft's progress bars for over a decade! The ETA timer in ED doesn't fulfil the purpose it should have, IMO. Ignoring any changing gravitional effects, it should tell you the time from "now" until you are safe to drop out of SC. In order to do that, it has to take into account not only your current speed and distance to your destination, but also your acceleration/deceleration. It also should take into account that you drop out 1Mm away, which has a major impact on the reason the time to destination is never 0:00. Put simply, it's a "Lunar Lander" problem. We're constantly reverse thrusting to meet our target, so that should be included in the calculation. It's a bit 2nd-level for me to do on my lunch, but it would seriously improve the SC timing dynamic if you knew at a given throttle level how long it was going to actually be before you reached your target, and potentially would decrease unnecessary overshoot of USS where there's usually less gravity. Yes, I can read the blue bars pretty well after a couple of months, but improving the display based upon the information the game has available, i.e. speed, distance, deceleration, has to be a good thing.

 

[Coccolino]

I love the timer. Can't do any correct fast approach to stations without it.

 

[Masta Squidge]

ITT: people who don't know what the blue bars are for on the throttle indicator.

Protip: they are useful in supercruise too.


The timer is fine. It's you who is using it incorrectly, by assuming you deserve an exact eta.

 

[LaveLubber]

Not sure how people missed this in my OP: "We all know this and yet we put up with it. Because of the variable, non-user controllable, speed variation in SC, it renders this timer pointless. We all use it to max out our time to destination at "0:06", but we know we won't get there in six seconds. "

I know how to get to my destination as fast as possible. I know how to use the information the timer provides to my advantage. That wasn't my point...

Wouldn't you prefer a timer that provides an accurate estimate of the time to reach your destination? This is easily achievable by taking into account, a) your current velocity and b) the speed changes that the SC mechanism is likely to impose on you because of gravity wells on your current trajectory.

If you change heading or throttle, obviously, the ETA changes. If you are going to fast, it could read "overshoot". The current 0:06 value is arbitrary and meaningless.

 

[Traven Mayhem]

Works perfectly as is, and is accurate. People just aren't understanding the mechanics.

WTB decel timer and 'normal' deceleration curve for intercepting low energy FSD wakes please -- as those are actually difficult and should be easier. (it will still take a long time since decel takes a long time)

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Strange. The timer makes perfect sense to me. Maybe i'm just weird.

 

[QziQza]

Yes, I can read the blue bars pretty well after a couple of months, but improving the display based upon the information the game has available, i.e. speed, distance, deceleration, has to be a good thing.

How is it possible to improve on displaying the actual values as they are? each single value is dependant on the other 2. its as if some people would prefer the game to produce an approximation of time to target so that the timer was always decreasing, rather than displaying a time to target at current speed which is accurate. is it not better to see it as it is, rather than having the system trying to predict your arrival time?

 

[Masta Squidge]

There are a lot more mechanics at play than your current speed or gravity wells.

You're still expecting an exact arrival, and the only way to get that is to take all of the control out of your hands; autopilot.

There's no possible way to account for player input, so the current time works perfectly fine. The problem is that you're incapable of understanding it.

 

[SquidgyB]

i can understand what you are suggesting, but they havnt long implemented being able to turn off the orbit lines in the ui, your suggestion is to fill it all back up with more lol, the best part of this game for me is flying in the expanse of space, that means being able to enjoy the view as much as getting from a - b, adding that kind of extra visual, to something you can learn and already adapt to, to me, would be taking something away from the play rather than adding to it. you cant see thermals or updrafts when you are piloting a glider, you just have to understand the physics behind them, where they occur, and then learn how to put them to use. It is no different in ED, they are using a stable model built on specific rules, learn those rules and how they apply and you can make use of them, sometimes they arnt always as expected, but then thats no different to gliding either and adds to the fun.



sorry knew i forgot something.. +rep for the idiom in Welsh "waehae the Scots, the Welsh and the Irish"

But... as I mentioned the module would be optional - for those who want to install the system showing these details. If you don't like it, don't purchase or install it. It could also be set as optional in the same way orbit lines are - and, at least IMHO, removing orbit lines only serves to allow for clean screenshots - I'd much rather keep orbit lines in general (and indeed I've never once switched them off) because they're invaluable for me as a guide when approaching my destination.

Gliders... good analogy, but again, you can buy upgrades which (while not showing you *where* the thermals are) will give you much more information than just how high you are. A good glider pilot (well technically I'm thinking RC, but the same concepts apply) may or may not use variometers to give them feedback not only on the current height of the model, but sudden changes in height. They'll be looking at the wing tips to check for any slight movement - and you're right, in that a good pilot will know his craft so well that he'll "feel" when he's in a thermal.

But there's also technology to help... some people have even considered placing sensitive thermal sensors on different points of the aircraft to try and visualise or at least notify of the existence of thermals in the vicinity. It's quite the "acoustic vs amped" or "old school vs new tech" argument, it's true - but I don't see the inherent downside of having these options and ideas available, especially if they're implemented in a non compulsory way.

 

[Scoob]

I only take note of it when it hits 7 seconds, at which point I throttle back to 50% from 100% so I'm well in the blue when it hits 6 seconds. Seems to be the fastest way to travel alone with going off-elliptic. So, to me the timer is either saying to go FLAT OUT, slow to 50% or cruise at 50% depending on the numbers.

Scoob.

 

[Sunset]

In this thread I suggest some idea for have an option to hide the timer
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=106705

 

[spacejumbofudge]

This thread reminds me of ones like the friendly fire thread. Someone has made a perfectly valid observation of a part of the game that needs improving, people jump in to say it's good how it is and it works as intended, even though it's clearly not. There's probably already an item to improve it on the backlog for FDev, but it's low priority. Eventually it'll get fixed and no one will actually miss the old way.