The type of positive engagements needed in ED

[Titus Balls]

Now I realise this will be a contentious post simply due to it's content.

I would also ask you read the entire post before commenting. If you don't want to, I would suggest not engaging in this post. My intention is to keep this light and friendly and not descend into another 20 pages of biting comment before a mod has to step in and stop it all - at which point anything positive from the conversation is lost.

Please also don't think I am trying to poke the nest here - merely in reading it I realise this is the kind of positive engagement stories that are missing from this game.

I won't link the original due to swearing, and had to edit it slightly for forum content (but it can be found on a certain subreddit). I also realise not all you will get the significance or specific details of it but I am only trying to convey the point that this type of event CAN have positive gameplay effects and enjoyment for - what on paper seems like - the potential loosing party. Part of it is learning the mechanics - and with wing mechanics - that will be both in open play and with NPC wings (as confirmed by Michael) in solo mode (yes sorry guys you're not going to be very safe over there either - Frontier don't "like you" very much*).


Here goes:

So, I work mostly from home, and on the 2nd monitor of my work computer, often keep an client up for hauling as part of a well-known dedicated hauling corp. It's a decent way to make a little spending isk that requires minimal distraction from my actual work. I also keep a webbing alt in Uedama, as it's by far the hottest system in general when it comes to suicide ganking, and when it's lukewarm-to-hot, will web through the dangerous systems for as far as my flashy-red Machariel friends decide to follow.

Unfortunately, I wasn't paying attention and wasn't in Uedama, but rather Aufay, one of the systems in the Hek pipe of 0.5 space, and didn't even notice I was being bumped until I noted that it had been a while since I hit the Jump button and I wasn't yet seeing the destination grid in the corner of my eye. Crap. A red Machariel was on my overview, a known bumper, and I was about 40k from the gate. Sure enough I see him slam into me, bumping me straight down.

Straight down. Well, that's interesting.

An idea comes to me, something I've since learned has been theorycrafted a little, but I've yet to read anything resembling success with the tactic. The idea is to get an alt on grid with your freighter, burn in the direction of the bump, and warp to your alt, giving you enough space to get into warp (with the benefit of webs) before he can get to you and resume bumping.

So, my webbing alt kicks into motion, making best speed to Aufay and forming up a fleet. After 9 jumps my freighter is over 100k from gate. Presumably the gank will start when I'm out of range of the gate guns, or near enough.

So, I warp to my freighter, turn on the MWD, and burn straight down. Thankfully the bumper didn't change the pattern. So after I'm 150k away, I wait for the next bump, double-click in the direction of my webbing alt, and initiate the warp.

The alignment is nearly perfect, and the kick to warp is almost instantaneous. Toodaloo !!!!

I realize I'm not quite out of the woods when I see combat probes appear on grid, but now I've got my webbing alt on grid, so I just apply my triple webs to slow down my warp momentum, release them to expedite the slow-down, then align to the out-gate and re-apply the webs. I'm off grid in a few seconds, just barely even seeing the combat probes leave the grid.

Only then do I realize my heart is pumping like crazy. My first thought was, that was almost like PvP.

My next thought is, wait, no, that actually WAS PvP. Denying your adversary a kill is just as much of a thrill as getting the kill, and there's satisfaction in knowing I stymied an entire gank fleet with just a freighter and a webbing alt. They'll move onto their next target, but It won't be me. Part of good PvP is knowing when to run, and more importantly, knowing how.

My hope is going forward we see more of these kinds of stories - of the underdog getting the upper hand over the nasty baddies in this game I don't think committing suicide by self destruction gives anyone satisfaction.

*Frontier love you, but they want your game to be more exciting too - which means the NPCs will get meaner and you won't have a smooth ride from here on in. This has been confirmed in the latest dev post.

 

[fademist]

Now I realise this will be a contentious post simply due to it's content. Please don't think I am trying to poke the nest here - merely in reading it I realise this is the kind of positive engagement stories that are missing from this game.

I won't link the original due to swearing, and had to edit it slightly for forum content (but it can be found on a certain subreddit). I also realise not all you will get the significance or specific details of it but I am only trying to convey the point that this type of event CAN have positive gameplay effects and enjoyment for - what on paper seems like - the potential loosing party. Part of it is learning the mechanics - and with wing mechanics - that will be both in open play and with NPC wings (as confirmed by Michael) in solo mode (yes sorry guys you're not going to be very safe over there either - Frontier don't "like you" very much*).


Here goes:



My hope is going forward we see more of these kinds of stories - of the underdog getting the upper hand over the nasty baddies in this game I don't think committing suicide by self destruction gives anyone satisfaction.

*Frontier love you, but they want your game to be more exciting too - which means the NPCs will get meaner and you won't have a smooth ride from here on in. This has been confirmed in the latest dev post.

argh i want machariel here!!!! lol

 

[Rall]

Now I realise this will be a contentious post simply due to it's content. Please don't think I am trying to poke the nest here - merely in reading it I realise this is the kind of positive engagement stories that are missing from this game.

I won't link the original due to swearing, and had to edit it slightly for forum content (but it can be found on a certain subreddit). I also realise not all you will get the significance or specific details of it but I am only trying to convey the point that this type of event CAN have positive gameplay effects and enjoyment for - what on paper seems like - the potential loosing party. Part of it is learning the mechanics - and with wing mechanics - that will be both in open play and with NPC wings (as confirmed by Michael) in solo mode (yes sorry guys you're not going to be very safe over there either - Frontier don't "like you" very much*).


Here goes:



My hope is going forward we see more of these kinds of stories - of the underdog getting the upper hand over the nasty baddies in this game I don't think committing suicide by self destruction gives anyone satisfaction.

*Frontier love you, but they want your game to be more exciting too - which means the NPCs will get meaner and you won't have a smooth ride from here on in. This has been confirmed in the latest dev post.

Well I truley hope so, I do think the add hoc nature of the Wings features will lend themselves to this kind of gameplay.

I will also be boy scouting in known pirate hotspots offering to help Lakons across the road in my Python or Fed Corvette (If that does arrive with 1.2).

 

[Titus Balls]

Well I truley hope so, I do think the add hoc nature of the Wings features will lend themselves to this kind of gameplay.

I will also be boy scouting in known pirate hotspots offering to help Lakons across the road in my Python or Fed Corvette (If that does arrive with 1.2).

Absolutely! With the Ad-Hoc nature of wings, local defence forces and escorts will be very easy to set up (provided the networking can handle it!). I can't wait to see this type of stuff emerge.

p.s excellent choice of avatar sir. WE HAIL PRINCE GEORGE. WE HAIL PRINCE GEORGE.

 

[Roybe]

Absolutely! With the Ad-Hoc nature of wings, local defence forces and escorts will be very easy to set up (provided the networking can handle it!). I can't wait to see this type of stuff emerge.

p.s excellent choice of avatar sir. WE HAIL PRINCE GEORGE. WE HAIL PRINCE GEORGE.

This is actually my main concern. I see so many problems currently when I play with overseas players (I'm in NA, many of the players in my part of the galaxy are European) and when we get in instances...well let's just say the NPC's love them a game of leapfrog.

I believe wings will make or break this game...it's that important. If the game and netcode cannot handle them graciously (it might take a week or so of tweaking), then I would truly suggest that FDEV consider going a PvE only route. PvP becomes untenable at that point...or the game splinters into groups of people within x ping of each other.

 

[CaptainKremmen]

Hi TB.

Apologies, but to me, not being an eve player, that quoted text in your original post doesn't make much sense.

I've read it a couple of times, and can make up stuff in my head to give meaning to the various game-specific terms, but I really have no idea if the context and meanings I've added relate in any way to what actually happened to them.


I feel like Eddie the dog in that "Frasier" episode that showed the main characters engaged in conversation... from the dog's point of view. All the dialogue was changed to "...eddie yadda yadda yadda yadda eddie yadda yadda...".

 

[Zenith]

^ What they said.

All I saw was something about Eve, and since I don't play Eve, there was no context or explanation of what was being talked about.

 

[Lovecraft]

I'm not an Eve player myself, but this part seems like something that would be great here:

My next thought is, wait, no, that actually WAS PvP. Denying your adversary a kill is just as much of a thrill as getting the kill, and there's satisfaction in knowing I stymied an entire gank fleet with just a freighter and a webbing alt. They'll move onto their next target, but It won't be me. Part of good PvP is knowing when to run, and more importantly, knowing how.

Creating a dynamic environment where the PvP is as much about the moments leading up to being interdicted, as the combat itself, meaning someone with no interest in the actual combat can still find ways to interact and thwart a human opponent, without necessarily being engaged in combat. Hopefully we'll see the formula develop in time.


Good post OP.

 

[RedeyeJedi]

I would wholeheartedly agree we need more goals and assets to contend for, be they bones of contention, mini/meta games, space stations, resources, in game goals, or in systems bonuses gained through in game pvp or even pve conflict in some cases. Some of these aspects are already present here in some minor ways though I feel they lack tangible rewards and as we the players have little reason to fight in pvp scenarios other than empty bragging rights and self satisfaction as there are no tangible rewards for conflict in pvp and even pve brings little more than a few credits reward and in some cases outright credit losses especially if you fly an Asp with the crazy repair costs.

A bunch of fixed assets like player controlled stations or possibly derelict capital ships that could be occupied, rebuilt and subsequently destroyed would likely provide a few likely targets for PVP focused groups/players. Other mmo games do this in various ways though there is usually a small tangible reward with a 5% boost to in game rewards which would possibly correlate to a small trade bonus in Elite. We already have 3 factions we just need something for them to fight over imo as I do love a good pvp battle having participated in many with large groups involving over 100 players at times and they were good fun regardless of the outcome.

Such dynamics that incite and deliberately precipitate pvp and pve contention do bring longevity to a game imo as it does keep me and many others coming back for that pvp fix and will continue long after the cash money rewards in Elite have been claimed and are long gone. One only has to look at the epic tales Eve has created within its player base to realise that online multiplayer games do thrive on player conflict for a large proportion of participants bringing players back to the fray time and again in seeking that competitive pvp battle victory over ones fellow players. Likewise FPS games thrive on pvp conflict and I personally have had a great many memorable battles in formal 32v32 player clan games in the Battlefield serios.

I too have little to no experience of the Eve universe though I have heard of the stalwart player base and can definitely relate to the pvp aspects I have often read about be they victories or defeats as for me the fun is participating knowing it could go either way and that there will always be another opportunity to get one over on the competition in whatever way the game provides. I will also add I have had tremendous fun in other games avoiding gank squads in pvp areas using legitimate in game tactics as it is very funny especially when you can taunt said gank squad a little with in game comms! I still play a little on one game and after 4200+ hours it is still a fun pvp game with intense multiplayer battles that as sad as it sounds do get the heart racing despite the blatant cash grabs from the publisher which has reduced my participation.

In summary I would say Elite really needs some form of global or at the very least widespread in game comms in the form of a simple message system that would hopefully include several chat rooms to foster more player interaction and help new players if needed, will post some more thoughts on this in the suggestions forum along with some of the following. Secondly more focus for PVP and PVE groups that fosters in game conflict with some more tangible rewards instead of simply grinding missions and random low level npc ships which would also include a more tangible result that benefits the player more than a small one time credit reward as Risk should certainly bring a healthy reward or people will stay risk averse as many do now in private and group areas. Lastly larger in game assets be they fixed or mobile for example a mining platform that carries collection drones that could bring profit and benefit for the group defending it, other options are derelict ships and stations as mentioned above.

Good post Titus, always nice to see others thinking of new and interesting ways to play a game though I don't see how people would be able to fly multiple ships simultaneously in Elite while retaining anything more than basic control of systems etc though am sure some would find a way.

 

[Gully Foyle]

I hope it turns out like that too. I'd like to be able to just start up the game and join a wing doing something. That little tale was engrossing.
What is a webbing alt?

 

[Titus Balls]

Hi TB.

Apologies, but to me, not being an eve player, that quoted text in your original post doesn't make much sense.

I've read it a couple of times, and can make up stuff in my head to give meaning to the various game-specific terms, but I really have no idea if the context and meanings I've added relate in any way to what actually happened to them.


I feel like Eddie the dog in that "Frasier" episode that showed the main characters engaged in conversation... from the dog's point of view. All the dialogue was changed to "...eddie yadda yadda yadda yadda eddie yadda yadda...".

I did think that might be the case and commented as much in the OP. What I would say is don't focus on the details but the part in bold, in fact Lovecraft's post here is about the point.

 

[Titus Balls]

I hope it turns out like that too. I'd like to be able to just start up the game and join a wing doing something. That little tale was engrossing.
What is a webbing alt?

Alt webbing is where you have a second character who uses a module called "a web" or a Statis Webifier. It was designed as a module to slow down enemy ships movement making them easier to hit and harder for them to run away. A side effect of the module is it actually improves the traversal and angular momentum of a ship that as such it's time-to-align* is shortened. For larger ships such as freighters this is extremely important as they can have align times of up to 40 seconds - so anything you can do to knock a few seconds off this helps to get away from bumping**

* Time-to-align is the time from a stationary or moving position in one direction, to the direction you want to warp off in. Think of it as the time to charge the FSD and then the countdown timer.

** Bumping is where ships are literally used to bump others. In doing so they knock ships off their align attempt meaning they have to start again. An analogy is like someone turning around you push them over - then continue to push them over every time they get up.

The specific mechanic though is NOT THE POINT of the OP (to anyone else reading) but the part in bold like in Lovecraft's post.

 

[Janichsan]

Hi TB.

Apologies, but to me, not being an eve player, that quoted text in your original post doesn't make much sense.

I've read it a couple of times, and can make up stuff in my head to give meaning to the various game-specific terms, but I really have no idea if the context and meanings I've added relate in any way to what actually happened to them.


I feel like Eddie the dog in that "Frasier" episode that showed the main characters engaged in conversation... from the dog's point of view. All the dialogue was changed to "...eddie yadda yadda yadda yadda eddie yadda yadda...".

Quoted for truth.

 

[Titus Balls]

Good post Titus, always nice to see others thinking of new and interesting ways to play a game though I don't see how people would be able to fly multiple ships simultaneously in Elite while retaining anything more than basic control of systems etc though am sure some would find a way.

Like I say, don't focus on the mechanics here - they are not possible, not the point I was trying to make - but you get everything else spot on! It's the sentiment of the player that something out of his control initially turned into a positive and he went away happy.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Like I say, don't focus on the mechanics here - they are not possible, not the point I was trying to make - but you get everything else spot on! It's the sentiment of the player that something out of his control initially turned into a positive and he went away happy.

Interesting OP - understand the sentiment.

The favourable outcome of the encounter, from the point of view of the freighter pilot, relies on the attacking ship being in some way restrained from directly attacking the freighter to provide the time to allow the second ship to come to the aid of the freighter. There is no such restraint in the game (unless we're talking about being in range of a station's guns).

 

[Titus Balls]

Interesting OP - understand the sentiment.

The favourable outcome of the encounter, from the point of view of the freighter pilot, relies on the attacking ship being in some way restrained from directly attacking the freighter to provide the time to allow the second ship to come to the aid of the freighter. There is no such restraint in the game (unless we're talking about being in range of a station's guns).

With Wings, I do hope we start to see some of that become available. The suggestion has been that wings will be ad-hoc, and that players can issue contracts:

Any word on how to join or form a wing? Do they have to be on your Friends list, or can you target someone in game, and join up there?

You can invite friends or through contacts in your local area.

Michael

In this case I see an emergent behaviour of groups offering protection. Add to that

One of the new additions with Wings is the ability to lock-on to your wing mates. The lock-on is a new feature specifically for wings. It lets you lock the details of a wingman’s ship into your nav-computer and “soft-slave” your frame shift drive to theirs. Even though we’ve relaxed the limits for using wakes of wingmen (you can be travelling faster and farther away and still drop in/out of super cruise), a wing lock-on automates FSD use – all you need to do is fly close enough. You still need to make sure you’re eligible to make the jump, but it should dramatically help in time critical situations, such as when your wingman is being interdicted.

The lock-on will also hopefully generate some interesting choices, as each member of the wing can only lock-on to a single target. So you might, as a wing, favour a “closed loop” array, where each wingman locks on to a different member, ensuring that eventually all of the wing will be able to use the automatic soft-slave effect, or you might decide to “protect the weak”, where all members lock-on to the same wingman, potentially speeding up process: if the target drops from super cruise, all lock-on member will be able to drop out at the same time, rather than follow each other in sequence.

Then hopefully we'll see this type of stuff be more meaningful. I also suspect we'll see bait ships start to appear that, where their backup wing hold out in the next system over and wait to jump in and hope the attack takes place near the sun.

It'll also be interesting to see what happens in solo now that there will be AI groups, but no way for players to get additional protection from this.

You can encounter AI groups.

Michael

 

[Robert Maynard]

It'll also be interesting to see what happens in solo now that there will be AI groups, but no way for players to get additional protection from this.

It will indeed - if it becomes too hazardous for players in solo (i.e. they stop enjoying the game) then something will probably need to be done - the game is not multi-player only, after all.

 

[Chevy66]

Hi TB.

Apologies, but to me, not being an eve player, that quoted text in your original post doesn't make much sense.

I've read it a couple of times, and can make up stuff in my head to give meaning to the various game-specific terms, but I really have no idea if the context and meanings I've added relate in any way to what actually happened to them.


I feel like Eddie the dog in that "Frasier" episode that showed the main characters engaged in conversation... from the dog's point of view. All the dialogue was changed to "...eddie yadda yadda yadda yadda eddie yadda yadda...".

Same here, I hope they don't start bringing that kind of incomprehensible jargon in