Modes The Solo vs Open vs Groups Thread [See new thread]

[DarkWalker]

What leaves me puzzled is why there is solo and groups, when, essentially, groups is the same thing as solo? I guess they didn't think this through and decided to keep all three anyway, even though solo isn't needed at all, as "groups" has exactly the same functionality. Or am I missing something?

Solo was described from the start as a private group of one.

Besides, the distinction became more important when Frontier ditched the offline mode; solo guarantees that the game will use as little bandwidth as possible, and only for things where latency won't impact the player experience. It's something done in part to appease those that purchased the game for the offline mode due to their internet connection not being good enough for conventional online gaming.

Yeah you have a point but in my defense this is hardly the first time developers are surprised when their envisioned model is twisted for the better by the players. And it is a very sad truth that the P2P model is inadequate for MMO games.

Peer to Peer is only truly bad if you want players to be able to force their own gameplay on each other. In a game where interactions are meant to be done by consent peer to peer is not intrinsically worse than server-based communications.

For me, given that I tend to find any kind of forced interaction distasteful and a waste of time, I truly don't see issues with the peer to peer model per see.

You last comment makes the rest of it make sense, Offline is gone.

Unfortunately for us that wanted offline; online, even solo, isn't a proper substitute, not by a long shot.

And, in part, unfortunately for you that wanted interaction; it unleashed unto the online game a number of players that don't desire social interaction in the game, that will be lobbying to be able to do everything the game offers without ever having to go against another player. After removing the promised offline mode and telling everyone that wanted it to go play solo online instead Frontier kinda have a moral duty to make solo online mode as enjoyable to those players as offline would have been, so unless they want to further damage their image they need to make sure solo mode isn't nerfed in any shape or way.

It's my case. While offline is gone I will be lobbying in the forums to prevent open from either being segregated or from having anything that isn't available in solo and group play. Though I'm not really playing right now, a new playthrough through Skyrim with a fresh set of mods seems more interesting than ED right now.

Where would you rather play? In a universe of 300k+ players, in a group of 4,500+ (Mobius) or just with one's self in Solo?

If "solo" was actually offline — with all the benefits offline games have, such as pausing, modding, being able to reload previous saves, not having other pesky players influencing "my" galaxy, and so on — then solo, without a doubt. But the current "solo" option is but a clumsy parody of what an offline game should have, with all the disadvantages of a MMO and almost none of the advantages of a truly offline game. Still more worthwhile than open when not in the mood to meet other players, but not even close to being as satisfying as a true offline mode.

 

[Dave1235]

Absolutely. I've played in Open exclusively since the Beta's.

Never been attacked by another player, only ever interdicted once and that was a test in the 1.1 Beta test server. I have however chatted to a few fellow CMDRS from time to time.

I'm there in Open, trading, Merc, exploration, running missions, even tried mining (which needs lots of work).

The suggestion that Open is a pew pew PvP fest everywhere you go is LY's off the mark. Fact.

I agree, even back when I was in open almost exclusively I didn't see loads of people, when I did come back into open for the getting pirated experience recently I was close to my starting system and there were a lot of people about. That said a couple of jumps in any direction makes a big difference.

 

[rdslw]

OPEN > SOLO switch abused, statistic data experiment proof, explanation for FDEV provided

Dear all,

over the course of last weeks, with help of few CMDR we did analysis of OPEN/SOLO switch done by CMDRs. We did it on carefully selected systems, based on assumptions that 'visited in last 24h' counts both solo and open cmdrs and counts NON unique visits.

From comparison analysis of data, preliminary results are like this:
* after changing for trading ship (t6/t7/t9)
* especially on specific good 'grind' route candidates
* cmdrs are switching from open to solo (while trading in tX ships) to a big extent
* cmdrs return to open some time later with better, fight type ships (acquired for money earned in solo)
* there is clear statistical difference of ships presence in OPEN mode based on ship type (while it shouldnt be visible in stat data, if commanders didnt do the switch)

This happens because while CMDRs want to pursue open environment with strong ships, yet not while grinding & trading. They want the benefit of money, without risk of earning it -> while it's a rational human behaviour, it has serious impact on gameplay.

Remember, this is preliminary stat data analysis. Not everyone is doing this, but trend is clear.

Result of this is clear: less traders in open. This trend is (here we lack data, but we will conclude second stage testing few weeks to confirm) strenghtening. Result is, that open will lack traders, and most human to human interactions will be pure combat types, effectively greatly reducing most of player2player interactions while one of side is trader.

Note well: while I personally consider this unfair behaviour (clearly getting benefits of open, with explicit avoidance of open risks) and I consider it the same as combat logging - I don't want this discussion to go into yet another OPEN vs SOLO debate, but to show that current 'unrestricted OPEN>SOLO' clearly and in the wrong directions removes specific gameplay interactions between players. Soon, only pirates will be there, with no traders. It will, by a sheer force of human behaviour, move OPEN purely to combat type players environment. I don't want OPEN to became pvp combat arena, and thats a reason for this post.

FDEV has much better tools that simple stat analysis we did (although we did have fun . They must see the trend. I just want to raise it to the public awareness, and suggest that maybe it's a last moment to implement some countermeasures. Maybe introducing, obligatory 'switch to solo is for next 4 weeks from switch time' or others? Maybe double ship costs in SOLO. I don't know. I trust FDEV here. Such change, would be INLINE with last wave of changes, putting more and more risks and difficulty to trading (to balance huge profits of trading), done by FDEV. I find it good direction. Currently number one loophole is SOLO.

Time to do sth with it

 

[mono]

And you think I'm reading that lot in courier new? No thanks.

 

[Gogster]

I consider it the same as combat logging

Well I don't.

Stick that in your pipe and smoke it.

I, I this and that. What stops combat players playing in solo killing high value NPC's? Nothing that's what. Baseless accusation and pointless, biased post.

 

[Top Cat]

Those arent results, they are your conclusions (assumptions?) based on the results.

There also seems to be a lack, anywhere, of how the in-game stats are put togethor. Has it been confirmed that they only include player ships? Has it been confirmed that open only show open stats and closed only show closed stats? Has it been confirmed that they are even anything other than close to random?

 

[Seonid]

Time to do sth with it

Where's the proof?

 

[Sim Maker]

Dear all,

over the course of last weeks, with help of few CMDR we did analysis of OPEN/SOLO switch done by CMDRs. We did it on carefully selected systems, based on assumptions that 'visited in last 24h' counts both solo and open cmdrs and counts NON unique visits.

From comparison analysis of data, preliminary results are like this:
* after changing for trading ship (t6/t7/t9)
* especially on specific good 'grind' route candidates
* cmdrs are switching from open to solo (while trading in tX ships) to a big extent
* cmdrs return to open some time later with better, fight type ships (acquired for money earned in solo)
* there is clear statistical difference of ships presence in OPEN mode based on ship type (while it shouldnt be visible in stat data, if commanders didnt do the switch)

This happens because while CMDRs want to pursue open environment with strong ships, yet not while grinding & trading. They want the benefit of money, without risk of earning it -> while it's a rational human behaviour, it has serious impact on gameplay.

Remember, this is preliminary stat data analysis. Not everyone is doing this, but trend is clear.

Result of this is clear: less traders in open. This trend is (here we lack data, but we will conclude second stage testing few weeks to confirm) strenghtening. Result is, that open will lack traders, and most human to human interactions will be pure combat types, effectively greatly reducing most of player2player interactions while one of side is trader.

Note well: while I personally consider this unfair behaviour (clearly getting benefits of open, with explicit avoidance of open risks) and I consider it the same as combat logging - I don't want this discussion to go into yet another OPEN vs SOLO debate, but to show that current 'unrestricted OPEN>SOLO' clearly and in the wrong directions removes specific gameplay interactions between players. Soon, only pirates will be there, with no traders. It will, by a sheer force of human behaviour, move OPEN purely to combat type players environment. I don't want OPEN to became pvp combat arena, and thats a reason for this post.

FDEV has much better tools that simple stat analysis we did (although we did have fun . They must see the trend. I just want to raise it to the public awareness, and suggest that maybe it's a last moment to implement some countermeasures. Maybe introducing, obligatory 'switch to solo is for next 4 weeks from switch time' or others? Maybe double ship costs in SOLO. I don't know. I trust FDEV here. Such change, would be INLINE with last wave of changes, putting more and more risks and difficulty to trading (to balance huge profits of trading), done by FDEV. I find it good direction. Currently number one loophole is SOLO.

Time to do sth with it

Just "Deal with it" bro.......
...
Some people did'nt want an online game....some did'nt want a PvP PewPew game, and "Solo" gives them a break from that............if people are trading in solo to buy bigger ships so they can SURVIVE in Open, maybe you will get more traders in open.....
...
No one is going to be your target........they will just leave the game, you cant force them to be your tin can.....but, if you really want a fight, stick around...I am sure the "traders" will be back in time, though not so toothless.......I mean, you dont want to just shoot up harmelss noobs do you? Want a proper fight, yes?

 

[mistohise]

Oh dear god. People in this forum need to stop moaning about what other players do and play their own game. What difference does it make?
You have the exact same opportunities available to use yourself, should you choose to use them. The design decision was to allow a free switch between the modes, that's what there is.
If you want more traders in open, then how's about, instead of suggesting penalising trading, you suggest dealing with the aspects of the game that mean it's not worthwhile to trade in open. So, for example, suggest that the bounty for destroying a ship is at least set to the rebuy value of the ship and any lost cargo. That way, there's a disincentive for player pirates to destroy ships, instead of the pathetic bounties that are placed at the moment. If traders know they have options, (I.E. that droping cargo would actually stop them being blown up) then they can trade in the open.
But no, instead you suggest more punative things to try to force people's hands.

ETA. The sort of statistical analysis I'd like to see is average play time against chosen play mode. I'd bet that there's a relationship there. People who have more free time to dump into gaming are less likely to be bothered by losing a ship, whilst simultaneously being more likely to own a more powerful ship. Those are the people you're going to see in open.

 

[CMDR Sheehy]

Guys easy with the piano on the stairs. I was addressing my question to the guy that was saying he wants solo, private and PVE. Don't drop your straw man on me.
Nobody claimed anything nor is saying how others should to play and of course there are more star systems in ED virtual Galaxy then potential human players in the world (Capt. Obvious strikes again) but (always a but I'm telling you) nobody explained me why a guy that I can't see should be able to mess with my game world? I'll answer myself , sic, because Braben said so. OK, I rest my case, as I don't have Sisyphean inclinations.

Having private conversation on the open board is bad form, even jumpable. If you did not want your point to be addressed, my friend, you should have PM'd him. Otherwise everything you write is playable on any instrument of my choice.

I double checked. No. No straw round here. Sorry I can't lend you any to build your own.

[Edit - Oooh - a merge! I feel dizzy!$%$!]

 

[Dave1235]

Note well: while I personally consider this unfair behaviour (clearly getting benefits of open, with explicit avoidance of open risks) and I consider it the same as combat logging - I don't want this discussion to go into yet another OPEN vs SOLO debate, but to show that current 'unrestricted OPEN>SOLO' clearly and in the wrong directions removes specific gameplay interactions between players. Soon, only pirates will be there, with no traders. It will, by a sheer force of human behaviour, move OPEN purely to combat type players environment. I don't want OPEN to became pvp combat arena, and thats a reason for this post.

The same as combat logging, really? I am glad the Dev team don't agree.

You raise an opinion and state that you "don't want this discussion to go into yet another OPEN vs SOLO debate" really, you make a post full of your opinions but don't want them to be debated, in the Solo / Open / Groups thread.

I am sure if it was something FD were concerned about they would be looking at changing it, rather than the Dev's confirming there are no plans to change it.

 

[CMDR Sheehy]

<snip>
* especially on specific good 'grind' route candidates
<snip>

Everyone who has been on the boards knows that Lave and other Rares Clusters is frag fest country. Strangely, you haven't mentioned with systems you looked at, but I'm going to bet...

 

[mongo2006]

I'm sure you guys can see that off-line players destroy trade routes for online players, on the rare occasion they come on-line, as soon as they are threatened they combat-log. When they finally do come online with their shiny new ships they get ate up by Vipers because they have no combat play (My Ship Cost Too Much To Die) As soon as they get some combat time and learn to fly, then the viper Pilots start moaning (Nerf The Python It's OP}

With the nerfs to trading, especially the limited supply, there is simply not enough supply to go around between on-line and off-line to co-exist peacefully. I really don't care if people want to play off-line but I don't want to finance their ability to do so without the ability to confront them.. Too many of the online trade routes are destroyed by people we can't see.. I'm sure they feel the same way about us on-line players

SO FD CAN YOU:

STOP THE COMBAT LOGGIN

RELAX THIS GLOBAL NERF ON TRADING

 

[CMDR Sheehy]

I'm sure you guys can see that off-line players destroy trade routes for online players, on the rare occasion they come on-line, as soon as they are threatened they combat-log. When they finally do come online with their shiny new ships they get ate up by Vipers because they have no combat play (My Ship Cost Too Much To Die) As soon as they get some combat time and learn to fly, then the viper Pilots start moaning (Nerf The Python It's OP}

With the nerfs to trading, especially the limited supply, there is simply not enough supply to go around between on-line and off-line to co-exist peacefully. I really don't care if people want to play off-line but I don't want to finance their ability to do so without the ability to confront them.. Too many of the online trade routes are destroyed by people we can't see.. I'm sure they feel the same way about us on-line players

SO FD CAN YOU:

STOP THE COMBAT LOGGIN

RELAX THIS GLOBAL NERF ON TRADING

Shouting is not pleasant!

Actually, I think you will find that it is in fact the Open players who are destroying the trade routes for Solo players. <rolleyes> Really though, with 32 players per instance, how do you expect to see all the players in open that are also ruining your nice trade route?

I note, through many forum posts and youtube videos, that plenty of Trader Killers Combat Log when faced with Bounty Hunters. So maybe it's nothing to do with Soloists losing their nerve on Open.

I don't feel in anyway about you, as someone who can only participate in Solo for technical reasons... But I would like to continue to have the same influence as anyone else who plays, Open, Groups or Solo, thank you very much for not treading on my grass.

 

[mongo2006]

Shouting is not pleasant!

Actually, I think you will find that it is in fact the Open players who are destroying the trade routes for Solo players. <rolleyes> Really though, with 32 players per instance, how do you expect to see all the players in open that are also ruining your nice trade route?

I note, through many forum posts and youtube videos, that plenty of Trader Killers Combat Log when faced with Bounty Hunters. So maybe it's nothing to do with Soloists losing their nerve on Open.

Seems like when people have nothing to say about WHAT you say, they tend to harp on HOW you said it..

Too many of the online trade routes are destroyed by people we can't see.. I'm sure they feel the same way about us on-line players

I guess you didn't read that part...

I don't feel in anyway about you, as someone who can only participate in Solo for technical reasons... But I would like to continue to have the same influence as anyone else who plays, Open, Groups or Solo, thank you very much for not treading on my grass.

So in other words I'm financing your off-line play because you can't afford a Walmart blue light special computer.. and I'm supposed to be ok with that?

 

[Gogster]

So in other words I'm financing your off-line play because you can't afford a Walmart blue light special computer.. and I'm supposed to be ok with that?

Eh?

at least 8 characters.

 

[Top Cat]

So in other words I'm financing your off-line play because you can't afford a Walmart blue light special computer.. and I'm supposed to be ok with that?

Yes, you are, because thats how the game works.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

So in other words I'm financing your off-line play because you can't afford a Walmart blue light special computer.. and I'm supposed to be ok with that?

No.. you are supposed to be ok with it because it was clearly how the game was promised to work back in 2013, where people paid money, often because of this flexibility and without it the game may never have made its KS goal.

Seriously....... pulling the "you are financing other people" card is a joke!. What ever happened to doing a little homework before buying a game and seeing if it was the kind of thing you may like, rather than buy it and demand game breaking changes? <sigh>

 

[Sim Maker]

I'm sure you guys can see that off-line players destroy trade routes for online players, on the rare occasion they come on-line, as soon as they are threatened they combat-log. When they finally do come online with their shiny new ships they get ate up by Vipers because they have no combat play (My Ship Cost Too Much To Die) As soon as they get some combat time and learn to fly, then the viper Pilots start moaning (Nerf The Python It's OP}

With the nerfs to trading, especially the limited supply, there is simply not enough supply to go around between on-line and off-line to co-exist peacefully. I really don't care if people want to play off-line but I don't want to finance their ability to do so without the ability to confront them.. Too many of the online trade routes are destroyed by people we can't see.. I'm sure they feel the same way about us on-line players

SO FD CAN YOU:

STOP THE COMBAT LOGGIN

RELAX THIS GLOBAL NERF ON TRADING

Mongo...just a pawn, in this great game...of life......
....
YO!!!...... You seem to know how Traders play................can I have a go?
....

Er-hem (clears throat).....All pirates are cheaters, they got their money from broken code, allowing them to have MILLIONS in the bank...so that all these "poor pirates" seem to run around in the most expensive ships......and now, they are bored with the game, because they ruined it for themselves.....and now, they want to ruin it for eveyrone else........./sarc

amirite?

 

[Kerrec Snowmane]

I'm sure you guys can see that off-line players destroy trade routes for online players, on the rare occasion they come on-line, as soon as they are threatened they combat-log. When they finally do come online with their shiny new ships they get ate up by Vipers because they have no combat play (My Ship Cost Too Much To Die) As soon as they get some combat time and learn to fly, then the viper Pilots start moaning (Nerf The Python It's OP}

With the nerfs to trading, especially the limited supply, there is simply not enough supply to go around between on-line and off-line to co-exist peacefully. I really don't care if people want to play off-line but I don't want to finance their ability to do so without the ability to confront them.. Too many of the online trade routes are destroyed by people we can't see.. I'm sure they feel the same way about us on-line players

SO FD CAN YOU:

STOP THE COMBAT LOGGIN

RELAX THIS GLOBAL NERF ON TRADING

This is only a "problem" because people use 3rd party tools to TELL THEM WHERE TO GO. In other words, traders are causing their own problem. Stop using 3rd party tools to tell you where to go. Get away from the high population systems and you'll find trade routes that don't get wrecked so fast. And as a bonus, you won't be in predictable places for player pirates to find you (if you're playing Open).