The Star Citizen Thread v 3.0

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What the heck are you talking about? Are you even playing Arena Commander right now? Right now, if you do not have a Super Hornet, Hornet or a Delta, don't even bother playing. Just look at the leader boards, look at the complaints that are popping up left and right on the AC forums. The facts are that the most powerful ships in AC are those I named right now combined with OMNI's. The current bump in shield hp by 4 times has made things even worse. Yeah, you can do boom and zoom or joust in maybe a 350 or something, but it will take you ages to kill one of the top 3 ships I just mentioned, but it will take only a few seconds for those ships I just named to kill you. People cannot compete with those ships I just named, especially since all of them have OMNI's on them. The only way to get more omni's is if either 1). You had ships that had them or 2). Buy it for real money. The fact that we have Leader Boards, scores is proof that you can win, it does not matter that its a game in alpha, beta or full released. That is the nature of people and competition, especially when you put leader boards in. If you think the AC module does not have a huge Pay2Win stigma right now, you are delusional.

Why do you feel you need to 'win' in AC? What is it that you win, a place in the leaderboard? Maybe I just don't get the appeal of 'winning' in something that is not even half a game yet. Also I'd rather you refrain from personal insults. Having a different opinion doesn't make one delusional.
 
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Why do you feel you need to 'win' in AC? What is it that you win, a place in the leaderboard? Maybe I just don't get the appeal of 'winning' in something that is not even half a game yet. Also I'd rather you refrain from personal insults. Having a different opinion doesn't make one delusional.

Do you just let people blow you up?
 
Do you just let people blow you up?

No, I just do the best that I can with what I have available. Win some, lose some. Doesn't matter in the end because it's only part of what will eventually be a bigger game. You don't gain or lose anything in AC. There's no game there, just a testing environment.

I would also prefer if everything was available to be tested freely but I see the REC system as a step in the right direction. They say they are trying to 'gamify' the process to make it more fun but I suspect they also want to have the system within the AC simulator in the final game to give people a way to try ships before they buy and waste UECs on something they won't like. In any case I think the new system will allow for both more ship/equipment and ship renting/selling/whatever-else-they-add testing.

Of course that is just my opinion. Others apparently think the current system is Pay2Win and the REC system will be Grind2Win. Fair enough, I just don't agree with that assessment because I don't see anything worth winning at this point. It's all just testing AND funding obviously. Maybe Pay2Test would be more accurate for what we have now and since I don't want to pay extra, I only test what's available. If that becomes Play2Test (as in the more you play the more stuff you'll have available to try) with the implementation of REC, I will see it as an improvement.
 
Because you don't get 168 hours. You get 7 days, each time you log on it counts as a day, so if you log on and only play for 1 min that counts as a day.

And the very fact that you have to grind to get "the best dogfighter in the game" or pay real money just shows how AC is P2W.

No, that is simply untrue: You get 168hrs, as clarified by CR himself a few days ago, and I quote:

"One thing that wasn't clear from the Friday post was that REC time is not real life time - its based on daily play. A week in REC is not necessarily a week in real life as the 7 days don't need to be concurrent. If you log in over 7 days over a month that would be the same as logging in for 7 consecutive days. The example in Calix's design overview of needing about 7 hours to "earn" a Hornet for a week was on the rational that playing 1 hour a day for 7 days would earn you a Hornet to fly for 7 days. Seems a pretty fair trade off - especially for a ship that others have contributed $110 for the right to fly the same ship in the PU and AC."
 
No, that is simply untrue: You get 168hrs, as clarified by CR himself a few days ago, and I quote:

"One thing that wasn't clear from the Friday post was that REC time is not real life time - its based on daily play. A week in REC is not necessarily a week in real life as the 7 days don't need to be concurrent. If you log in over 7 days over a month that would be the same as logging in for 7 consecutive days. The example in Calix's design overview of needing about 7 hours to "earn" a Hornet for a week was on the rational that playing 1 hour a day for 7 days would earn you a Hornet to fly for 7 days. Seems a pretty fair trade off - especially for a ship that others have contributed $110 for the right to fly the same ship in the PU and AC."

That doesn't actually clarify it. It just says the days don't have to be consecutive.
 
That doesn't actually clarify it. It just says the days don't have to be consecutive.

1500 had it right.
You get 7 days. As soon as you first log in on any day, then one of your 'days' is used up. The question is, when does that 'day' expire? Is it 24 hours after you first log in, or is it on a fixed time each day - and then is that fixed time based on US time or is it localized?

E.g. If I first log in at 11:55PM on a given day, when does the day of REC I am using end? 11:55PM the following day, midnight (my time - boy that would be annoying), midnight US time(which timezone?) or what?
 
What did people expect? That everything in AC is available out of the box? How would that aid the balancing and testing of the game? How would that work with the packages sold? Having everything available to you in a game is a no go. Did ED start out with 15 ships available to everyone? Or All equipment available to all? It's just not the way it can happen.

I actually prefer the ED way of monetizing the alphas and betas. You either payed for them or you didn't, and anyone who did had access to everything available in the game. Certainly, access cost more than the base price for the SC alpha / AC access, but there was no need to incentivize buying better ships with real money. As soon as better equipment was available, players were able to earn in game credits in order to buy them. Not everybody got to test everything, but on the whole I think the ED alphas and betas were pretty successful.

I wonder how much further along SC would be if they put the time and talent into making the game rather than making commercials for the new ships. Maybe I'm just getting impatient for Squadron 42 though, and after all that is being made by separate people :).
 
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I wonder how much further along SC would be if they put the time and talent into making the game rather than making commercials for the new ships. Maybe I'm just getting impatient for Squadron 42 though, and after all that is being made by separate people :).

CIG explained the whole ship commercials development as being a warm-up and training exercise for the devs to create the cinematics in SQ42, with the bonus of having some shiny videos to show to fans out of it.
It kinda makes good sense IMHO.
 
What did people expect? That everything in AC is available out of the box? How would that aid the balancing and testing of the game? How would that work with the packages sold? Having everything available to you in a game is a no go. Did ED start out with 15 ships available to everyone? Or All equipment available to all? It's just not the way it can happen.

As people have mentioned, yes purchasing Elite's alpha gave you everything for free (ie. in-game credits). There were no "rentals", things weren't taken away from you after x number of days. You did not pay for alpha access, and then be "persuaded" to pay a second time for things that should already be available. People loved to hate on ED's alpha for its high price point, but at least you didn't have to pay thousands of dollars to actually test ALL the content on a regular basis. FD actually treated their alpha like an alpha, whereas CiG is treating theirs like a typical free to play released game, with a p2w cash shop, and excessive grinding for anyone who wants to "test" without paying extra.

As for balancing, do you not realise that basically EVERY public alpha/beta in every online game ever made allowed full access, either for free or a one time fee? This "pay and pay again" scheme has never been needed before, and it isn't needed now. "Testing" is a poor excuse to justify freemium or p2w schemes. If CiG need certain ships/equipment tested, they have the means to make that happen. They could literally ask people to fly a certain ship for x number of days, and people would be more than happy to do so. They DO NOT need to limit access at all, it's simply all about the money.
 
If CiG need certain ships/equipment tested, they have the means to make that happen. They could literally ask people to fly a certain ship for x number of days, and people would be more than happy to do so.

They have been doing that for the last few months. Hornet, 300 and Mustang series (maybe others? I cannot remember all) have been out a few times each I believe. So the public can test the ships for free to give the devs feedback without having to buy them. They usually call it "Test drive the X series for the weekend/week".

Here's actually one posted 6 days ago:

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/...97-Test-Drive-The-Origin-Jumpworks-300-Series
 
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I am started to get seriously interested in Star Citizen again.

I am downloading now, shame though it needs over 20 gig and nearly a day to download...
 
They have been doing that for the last few months. Hornet, 300 and Mustang series (maybe others? I cannot remember all) have been out a few times each I believe. So the public can test the ships for free to give the devs feedback without having to buy them. They usually call it "Test drive the X series for the weekend/week".

Here's actually one posted 6 days ago:

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/...97-Test-Drive-The-Origin-Jumpworks-300-Series

I am aware of that and it's a good thing, but the point was that people who claim that "everyone would just fly the best ships and use the best equipment, and most stuff would never get tested", are just talking nonsense. There are plenty of passionate players/testers who are more than willing to help CiG test whatever they need.
 
No, that is simply untrue: You get 168hrs, as clarified by CR himself a few days ago, and I quote:

"One thing that wasn't clear from the Friday post was that REC time is not real life time - its based on daily play. A week in REC is not necessarily a week in real life as the 7 days don't need to be concurrent. If you log in over 7 days over a month that would be the same as logging in for 7 consecutive days. The example in Calix's design overview of needing about 7 hours to "earn" a Hornet for a week was on the rational that playing 1 hour a day for 7 days would earn you a Hornet to fly for 7 days. Seems a pretty fair trade off - especially for a ship that others have contributed $110 for the right to fly the same ship in the PU and AC."

That last sentence you just wrote really exemplifies what is wrong with the current AC structure. Why does it matter that somebody paid $110 for the hornet ether individual ship or game package compared to somebody who came in at $35-45 with a basic aurora/mustang? The SHIPS in the packages are just reward for people who have more disposable income to donate to CIG for the development. Are you telling me people are paying for ships to have an advantage in AC and that only those people who paid for them should have them and those who did not should be forced to grind it out or purchase the ship? ;-)....

The bottom line is it does not matter how much you gave to CIG, I gave them a lot, I have constellation, SH, hornet, avenger, Delta etc. I gave them these funds because I really like space games and have played plenty of CR's past games. The ships are just rewards for backing the game. I had more than what I just named but hey I got rid of it once I saw that CIG started to go down the monetizing rabbit hole and now the freemium hole.

The point I am making to you is that once you BUY into the development be it a $45 package or a $700 package, it should not matter how much you gave. Once you've given CIG the money, you are a backer and should be given everything to test the game. In this case CIG promised the community once they introduced the VD store that they will have "Test UEC" or an easy way for people to earn credits so that they can purchase ship/equipment in AC for testing, this was way back in 2013 at the $17 million level, because the community back then had a huge concern about cash shops and pay2win once the VD store was introduced. Hell, even CR himself addressed this issue in the Chairman letter for $17 million.

The point of us being here once we back the game is to test it, give CIG feedback, yet CIG has hidden everything behind pay walls, every single piece of equipment is behind a real money pay wall, all of this has been going on since AC came out past 8 months. The facts are the only way to test any other ship or equipment is to buy it with real money. Who in their right mind would monetize the Alpha stage of a game? To hide everything behind massive real money pay walls when people already paid for the game and its development. The answer is, nobody does it and if they did there would be a massive storm but for some reason 50% of the active community seems to think that this is ok.

The REC is a good idea and it was promised to the community, but its current proposed implementation is nothing but a freemium implementation that a plethora of other games already have. It's a massive grind that only caters to those who have the ability to play a huge amount of hours and force those who do not to purchase with real money.

The bottom line I am trying to make here with my massive walls of texts is simple. If CIG really wanted its users to test the game, promote an even greater number of backers to play Arena Commander than current numbers they would never introduce a REC system in its current form. The only reason they seem to have introduced it was to step away form the "pay2win" that has been going on for the past 8 months. But instead, they jumped down the freemium rabbit hole, which in itself forces people to still buy stuff for real money. We have all who are playing Arena Commander already backed CIG, paid for the game and the development, why in the hell is it "OK" for CIG to further charge people real money to test the game and mechanics. If anything, if they allowed a REC system in which the unlocks are permanent, the time sink in earning credits was severely reduced, people would actually play Arena Commander more, they would have a perfect chance to test out all the different ships that are available and if anything, that testing would make people buy even more ships.
 
Well, it doe not really get that much better if you go into top 100 players or even into 1000 players. There have been a few good scrapes of data done on main CIG forums and some people did a lot of good analysis of that data.

Basically in the top 100 or even 1000, the most popular ships are the Super Hornet(49%) and the Delta. Where over 65% favor using the mouse over the joystick. The reason why such a huge percentage favors using mouse is not because there are more mouse players but because joystick people are switching over to the mouse to stay competitive. When it comes to gimbals and aim, the joystick players can't really compete with the mouse. People with mouse aim are basically able to keep fine aim past 2,000 meters. There is a reason why the SH and Delta are so popular compared to all the other ships.

Honestly, the type of things such as ESP, look ahead or even using tracker IR for gimbal control are just crutches. CIG really needs to look into the controller balance heavily. When they basically allowed Freelancer style controls, where both mouse aim and flight are combined, they opened a huge can of worms balancing wise. You really can't balance joysticks/gamepads when you give Freelancer style controls to the mouse. If you want to look at what happens between joystick/mouse players, look at the War Thunder, you will never catch a joystick player in the Arcade mode of War Thunder because they simply can't compete with mouse aim/flight combined.

I just think that it's pretty worrying that CIG is struggling with something such as controller balance, which is a basic requirement compared to some of the features that they have promised the backers.

Good God man you nailed it with saying those systems are crutches. You can't find a better name for it than that. I'm just disappointed that CIG would rather make combat a grade school feature instead of just letting people work at improving through challenge. I mean seriously when I first started testing E:D I absolutely loved that it wasn't easy and that I had to work for my kills or to keep from getting killed. It may not have been fast paced, but it was still a challenge where I felt I earned what I got. Over 500,000 of the new citizens for SC are people who see combat as an annoyance that keeps them from 'leveling' up. So they just want to run through targets so they can get their mission payouts. They are poor pilots if you want to call them that, but they want bragging rights and lucky charm achievements over their heads. LOL!
 
Good God man you nailed it with saying those systems are crutches. You can't find a better name for it than that. I'm just disappointed that CIG would rather make combat a grade school feature instead of just letting people work at improving through challenge. I mean seriously when I first started testing E:D I absolutely loved that it wasn't easy and that I had to work for my kills or to keep from getting killed. It may not have been fast paced, but it was still a challenge where I felt I earned what I got. Over 500,000 of the new citizens for SC are people who see combat as an annoyance that keeps them from 'leveling' up. So they just want to run through targets so they can get their mission payouts. They are poor pilots if you want to call them that, but they want bragging rights and lucky charm achievements over their heads. LOL!

Heh, avoiding combat will be fine in the PU, after all I'm much more a trader / explorer in ED myself (Mostly Harmless, Merchant, Pathfinder). However, to complain about combat in a combat test module (albeit with a bit of racing) is silly :p!
 
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