The Star Citizen Thread v 3.0

[Voivod]

I'm actually astonished that people actually defend this system.
Grinding away to gain access to content that's locked behind a timer, is up there with the worst ideas that freemium games have ever brought to gaming.

All this coming from a company that advertises crowd funding as a means of escaping publisher nuances. Do they really not see the irony?

They have a ridiculous amount of funding, the least they could do is give us access to all the AC ships so we can play the game and test if for them as the same time. Do they really need to make more money on every turn of development?

 

[Auditore]

I'm actually astonished that people actually defend this system.
Grinding away to gain access to content that's locked behind a timer, is up there with the worst ideas that freemium games have ever brought to gaming.

All this coming from a company that advertises crowd funding as a means of escaping publisher nuances. Do they really not see the irony?

They have a ridiculous amount of funding, the least they could do is give us access to all the AC ships so we can play the game and test if for them as the same time. Do they really need to make more money on every turn of development?

Maybe we got used to the endless grinding in ED?

Seriously though, nobody knows if it will even be much of a grind at all. Plus, a system like that is still better than no system at all which is what we have now. I'm astonished people act like this will be somehow worse than before when it's clearly an improvement IMO.

 

[Stormprooter]

Maybe we got used to the endless grinding in ED?

Seriously though, nobody knows if it will even be much of a grind at all. Plus, a system like that is still better than no system at all which is what we have now. I'm astonished people act like this will be somehow worse than before when it's clearly an improvement IMO.

I think folks get upset when they are promised something (earn UEC in Arena Commander) and are then given (8 months later) something else. It does make it look like a 'bait-and-switch' - I'm not accusing CIG of that, just saying it can look that way. I suspect CIG were feeling pressure to do 'something', a number of options were presented and considered, and what we have coming up was decided to be the quickest and easiest way to do it using the least amout of resource to get it done and working. It just happens to be something not everyone is happy with . . .

 

[Auditore]

I think folks get upset when they are promised something (earn UEC in Arena Commander) and are then given (8 months later) something else. It does make it look like a 'bait-and-switch' - I'm not accusing CIG of that, just saying it can look that way. I suspect CIG were feeling pressure to do 'something', a number of options were presented and considered, and what we have coming up was decided to be the quickest and easiest way to do it using the least amout of resource to get it done and working. It just happens to be something not everyone is happy with . . .

When did CIG ever promise that we will be able to earn UECs in AC? A link would be helpful since I never heard such a thing myself. I would also be annoyed if this was true but I don't think it is.

Edit: Unless you are saying it might look like that even though it's not the case. Not entirely clear on that.

 

[Stormprooter]

http://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/2awrjs/we_will_earn_credits_playing_arena_commander/

and

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/13241-17-Million

In addition there’s been quite a few complaints about having to “pay to test”. Which absolutely was not the intention! From a testing perspective what everyone can do now with their basic hangar (and don’t forget you can move items around between ships now) we have everything we need on the testing front. There is no need to buy a poster to help test it. The real testing will happen when you can earn UEC in-game and you then buy all these items. But we appreciate everyone’s eagerness to help out, so I’m investigating the difficulty of implementing “TEST UEC” now rather than waiting for the dogfighting module – the idea would be that everyone would get a certain amount of TEST UEC at different periods and could use the credits to buy items that would exist for a day in your hangar to check them out, try them on your various ships, walls and so on. This is doable but does require some significant work on the web side, so if we take this route it will be a little while before it can be implemented. We had originally planned this for the dogfighting module (as it is useful for people to try different load outs in balancing) but we can move up the schedule if enough people think it’s important.

Bold part done by myself to highlight.

 

[Auditore]

Those quotes don't seem to contradict what they are doing now.

"the idea would be that everyone would get a certain amount of TEST UEC at different periods and could use the credits to buy items that would exist for a day in your hangar to check them out, try them on your various ships, walls and so on."
That's basically what the REC system will be like but instead of having the items for a day, they will be there for a week.

"The real testing will happen when you can earn UEC in-game and you then buy all these items."
In-game obviously means the actual PU, not Arena Commander.

I don't know, maybe I'm wrong but that's how I interpret them. I can see how someone might be upset if they thought otherwise since things are not exactly set in stone, but I don't see any 'bait-and-switch' tactic here either.

 

[Stormprooter]

Those quotes doesn't seem to contradict what they are doing now.

"the idea would be that everyone would get a certain amount of TEST UEC at different periods and could use the credits to buy items that would exist for a day in your hangar to check them out, try them on your various ships, walls and so on."
That's basically what the REC system will be like but instead of having the items for a day, they will be there for a week.

"The real testing will happen when you can earn UEC in-game and you then buy all these items."
In-game obviously means the actual PU, not Arena Commander.

I don't know, maybe I'm wrong but that's how I interpret them. I can see how someone might be upset if they thought otherwise since things are not exactly set in stone, but I don't see any 'bait-and-switch' tactic here either.

I don't disagree with you here. I think many have had the impression that earnable UEC in Arena Commander was coming - not the rental stuff. As for myself, the whole thing is all a bit ambiguous and confusing so I don't tend to get upset about it. The TEST UEC mentioned were specifically for the hangar module, before AC came to release, and those TEST UEC would be 'given away' by CiG - not 'earned' through playing the game.
As to what 'In-game' obviously means - I don't think it obviously means anything - it's quite ambiguous, many have taken it to mean Arena Commander, you have taken it to mean the PU. It's all a bit confusing, seeing as Arena Commander is supposed to be a game within the game - a simulator, and I do not see a direct relationship between UEC earned in the PU and AC - oe perhaps it means you can earn UEC in AC when the PU goes live (but that seems a bit off too).
I dunno

 

[Auditore]

I don't disagree with you here. I think many have had the impression that earnable UEC in Arena Commander was coming - not the rental stuff. As for myself, the whole thing is all a bit ambiguous and confusing so I don't tend to get upset about it. The TEST UEC mentioned were specifically for the hangar module, before AC came to release, and those TEST UEC would be 'given away' by CiG - not 'earned' through playing the game.
As to what 'In-game' obviously means - I don't think it obviously means anything - it's quite ambiguous, many have taken it to mean Arena Commander, you have taken it to mean the PU. It's all a bit confusing, seeing as Arena Commander is supposed to be a game within the game - a simulator, and I do not see a direct relationship between UEC earned in the PU and AC - oe perhaps it means you can earn UEC in AC when the PU goes live (but that seems a bit off too).
I dunno

Yeah, I can understand why it might seem ambiguous. In any case I think everyone should refrain from jumping into conclusions on how exactly things might work when they are implemented, based on intentions and though processes expressed by CR or the devs. IMO, the main thing that should be obvious to anyone by now is that when the devs are so open with regards to the development process, things will continue to be in flux until the very end. It doesn't mean they are out to deceive or create false hopes and impressions. That's just how it works.

 

[Voivod]

Seriously though, nobody knows if it will even be much of a grind at all. Plus, a system like that is still better than no system at all which is what we have now. I'm astonished people act like this will be somehow worse than before when it's clearly an improvement IMO.

Erm, I don't think "something is better than nothing" is a positive thing for a game trying to be the best space simulator ever.
There's so many other ways they could have gone about it and yet they chose this.
I'm hoping they have a change of heart but as usual with all things SC, I'm not keeping my hopes up.

 

[Mr.Nowak]

I don't see why people are being so angry about the REC system. It's a balance of both worlds until the PU comes out. Estimated 7 hours to get 168 hours of the best dogfighter in the game. I see that as a very good balance goal. The only downside for me is that singleplayer is not earning you REC. That should be thought of in my opinion. Maybe you could earn %30 less REC compared to Multiplayer to boost Multiplayer dogfighting activity.

 

[Jason S]

The combat motion seems much smoother in dog fighting now.

They must have the engine working better

 

[1500]

I don't see why people are being so angry about the REC system. It's a balance of both worlds until the PU comes out. Estimated 7 hours to get 168 hours of the best dogfighter in the game. I see that as a very good balance goal. The only downside for me is that singleplayer is not earning you REC. That should be thought of in my opinion. Maybe you could earn %30 less REC compared to Multiplayer to boost Multiplayer dogfighting activity.

Because you don't get 168 hours. You get 7 days, each time you log on it counts as a day, so if you log on and only play for 1 min that counts as a day.

And the very fact that you have to grind to get "the best dogfighter in the game" or pay real money just shows how AC is P2W.

 

[Monk]

Ok, I did it. I got an SC game package. Am I crazy, maybe, but no more crazy when I dropped almost twice the amount for ED Beta.

Was it out of frustration with ED, maybe a little bit. Probably more to do with not feeling satisfied with the game as it is today. Though, I still have confidence ED will get there.

I won't however, be giving CIG any more money than the basic package I have now, I think they have enough to make a game and sell it. I really just want to get a feel for the flight model and to hop on the hype train that I watched leave hype station back during the Kickstarter campaign.

I'm noticing there is a lot of real money for game things...that troubles me a bit, even though I intend to go lone wolf anyway. We'll see how it goes.

I did watch the recent 10 for the chairman. He talked a bit about instances and I found something odd about it, at least in comparison to ED. For example, stations can only exist in one solitary instance. In ED a station exists in as many instances needed to support the players. This means that in SC, if you want to attack a station, you might end up getting locked out, somehow, if the station instance is full. That to me, sounds terrible. A version of the docking backups of ED but on a much more annoying scale.

 

[Instrument]

what does happen when a thousand players all turn up at a station in ED like Jita?
do you see them all? so far I have never seen more than a handfull

 

[Neo-ST]

You get 32 separated instances at best.

 

[Viking]

I don't see why people are being so angry about the REC system. It's a balance of both worlds until the PU comes out. Estimated 7 hours to get 168 hours of the best dogfighter in the game. I see that as a very good balance goal.

Yes, indeed. I read that some are complaining that it's "freemium" or "pay to win", which is just not true. There's no real money involved in the REC system.

 

[Helfix]

Nobody is forced to buy anything to stay competitive because there is no real game to be competitive in yet. Nor is there anything to win for it to be Pay2Win either.Not saying that I agree with the way they had the whole thing set up so far when it comes to testing (which is one of the reasons I don't really play AC much right now) but I don't see anything disgusting about it. You can simply choose not to spend any more than you would already have spent otherwise. That's what I did. Might suck for them if less people test but on the other hand if they get extra funding out of it from those willing to pay, more power to them. I would also prefer everything was freely available for testing purposes but we'll have to see how the REC system ends up I guess.

What the heck are you talking about? Are you even playing Arena Commander right now? Right now, if you do not have a Super Hornet, Hornet or a Delta, don't even bother playing. Just look at the leader boards, look at the complaints that are popping up left and right on the AC forums. The facts are that the most powerful ships in AC are those I named right now combined with OMNI's. The current bump in shield hp by 4 times has made things even worse. Yeah, you can do boom and zoom or joust in maybe a 350 or something, but it will take you ages to kill one of the top 3 ships I just mentioned, but it will take only a few seconds for those ships I just named to kill you. People cannot compete with those ships I just named, especially since all of them have OMNI's on them. The only way to get more omni's is if either 1). You had ships that had them or 2). Buy it for real money. The fact that we have Leader Boards, scores is proof that you can win, it does not matter that its a game in alpha, beta or full released. That is the nature of people and competition, especially when you put leader boards in. If you think the AC module does not have a huge Pay2Win stigma right now, you are delusional.

See this is what makes me so upset at other backers. You think it's perfectly fine for a developer to charge people real money for simply testing their game in an alpha, to charge you for weapons, shields, equipment and ships, and so on. Even though you already gave CIG the money to develop the game, you are already playing arena commander, yet you think it's fine that they charge people real money to test more assets for CIG. Since when has this been ok? Last time I checked, the gaming community would of been in an uproar if it was any company, they would of had their pitchforks out and going full on burn mode. The facts are CIG has put the entire alpha behind a real money pay wall.

I don't see why people are being so angry about the REC system. It's a balance of both worlds until the PU comes out. Estimated 7 hours to get 168 hours of the best dogfighter in the game. I see that as a very good balance goal. The only downside for me is that singleplayer is not earning you REC. That should be thought of in my opinion. Maybe you could earn %30 less REC compared to Multiplayer to boost Multiplayer dogfighting activity.

Why are so many people angry? Because CIG has introduced a FREEMIUM mechanic into the alpha. There are plenty of games out there that use this same method before CIG has. What is the purpose of it? 1). It makes it look like the game is not pay2win, 2). It only allows players with a huge time to burn to earn the items and 3). it forces those with not as much time to purchase the items or quit. Also it's not 7 hours, its 7 hours to earn the base ship, then another 6 hours to earn the "renewal cost" then you have to spend 1 hour per each weapon to both earn it and renew it. So we are talking about at least 16-20 hours of game time before your "ship is secure". Let's not talk about the only way to earn these items is to basically play in PvP, so that means all the poor joe shmoes will have to be eaten alive over and over by all the SH's/Delta's/Hornets in AC until they get the better ships items. Right now the SH makes up 50% of all the AC ships used. Where the average play time for the active players on AC is <1-2 hours (8,000 players) and an even smaller percentage has played more than 10 hours.

The reason why people are upset is because CIG has chosen to make people use the grind method to earn equipment/ships instead of actually making it easy for people to get all of these things. If they actually wanted to encourage people to play AC more then why put it behind a grind? Obviously for the same reason freemium games do, to make people purchase it with real money.

Yes, indeed. I read that some are complaining that it's "freemium" or "pay to win", which is just not true. There's no real money involved in the REC system.

What are you talking about? Nobody is talking about real money involved in REC. Maybe you should read more into what people mean when they say "freemium" and "pay2win" as you are obviously mis-informed about what the issue is with the current REC implementation.

 

[Mr.Nowak]

What did people expect? That everything in AC is available out of the box? How would that aid the balancing and testing of the game? How would that work with the packages sold? Having everything available to you in a game is a no go. Did ED start out with 15 ships available to everyone? Or All equipment available to all? It's just not the way it can happen.

 

[Helfix]

What did people expect? That everything in AC is available out of the box? How would that aid the balancing and testing of the game? How would that work with the packages sold? Having everything available to you in a game is a no go. Did ED start out with 15 ships available to everyone? Or All equipment available to all? It's just not the way it can happen.

We are not testing the Persistent Universe. The point of Arena Commander is to be a test bed, to try out new mechanics, flight model, dogfithing, balance, equipment you name it that will be incorporated into PU/SQ 42. That was the whole purpose of the DFM module. People can't test that when you have everything behind real money pay walls. Every single game out there allows people to earn these things easily so that they can be tested without paying real money for them, because you know, people already paid for the game development and are now testing it for the developer, its literally how every single early access game does it, its unheard of to hide things behind pay packages let alone real money pay walls in a game that is early access, let alone a full game.

How do people balance and test game? How do you think every other early access game developer does it? You sure as hell wont see them charging people real money for it because they already charged the people for the game.

Why do the packages that are sold matter? Are the ships that come along those packages not just rewards for being able to "back" SC's development at a much higher level because you were generous with your support for Star Citizen? Are you telling me people who bought higher tier level packages don't want other's who have bought lower tier packages with real money should have no ability to test the higher tier ships unless they drop real money? LOL.....People who are playing Arena Commander have already bought a game package to support Star Citizens development, why would it affect the sale of packages? If anything, it should promote the sale of packages because people now have the ability to try the ships before they buy them. The whole purpose of AC is to test, why do game package sales matter here? Like I said, those who are playing AC have already given their money to CIG to develop the game, its why they have access to Arena Commander. Also nobody is saying to be given EVERYTHING, what people are saying is to get rid of the ridiculous RENT aspect so that once you unlock it's there always for you to use, reduce the time grind (its a huge freemium sink right now) and allow people to earn those things without participating in PvP. That is how you increase sales of ships, that is how you increase the level of backers who are excited and playing Arena Commander.

Also you are getting confused here. In Elite Dangerous, people earned those ships and equipment. Why? Because those people were testing the games ECONOMY, the rate of progression, you know how long it took people to earn those things, if you paid attention to the develpment FD tweaked those times and costs of items based on those stats. That was just one aspect that was tested in Elite. Arena Commander is in no way shape or form close to anything that we did in Elite Dangerous. Arena Commander's purpose is completely different to what Elite Dangerous alpha/beta/gamma did. If you want a comparison to what we did in Elite Dangerous then that will be compared to what we will be doing in the SC Persistent Universe, because it will be the exact same thing that was done in Elite Dangerous.

 

[1500]

What did people expect? That everything in AC is available out of the box? How would that aid the balancing and testing of the game? How would that work with the packages sold? Having everything available to you in a game is a no go. Did ED start out with 15 ships available to everyone? Or All equipment available to all? It's just not the way it can happen.

What are you talking about? Every item (non cosmetic) was in fact availability to everyone when it was added to the game. Please link a single, non-cosmetic, item that was locked behind a pay wall. So ya all equipment was in fact available to all when it became available, this is nothing like the P2W system of AC that locks everything behind pay walls, and now soon to be massive endless grinds.