Immersion

[W4rSkuLL]

was that in single player or multiplayer?

Multiplayer Conquest. Very fun

 

[Mobius]

I imagine that the banter wasn't along the lines of your mum and I or suggesting what your sexual orientation is.

 

[warbaby2]

But to me, as a wanna-be writer, I have always liked to do the off-thing. As soon as some baseline assumption of the world has been established and became ingrained in most people dealing with it, I like to add contrast.

Yes and no... diversity can be a great tool, but diversity for diversities sake can become pretty boring in itself if used too often... but yea, that's what I learned over the last 20 years of wiring pen and paper adventures.

What I meant with "homogenous style" was: Consistency, not uniformity. Technologies, cultures, history,... all that has to be consistent and "believable" in the bigger picture of the game world to really be immersive. That doesn't necessarily mean it has to be boring or samey... dunno if it that makes sense.

 

[PacalB]

Immersion, personally I think only the RP community can offer this. FD can build an absolutely stunning universe with great mechanics, they can make your mouths drop open, your eyes pop out ... but ... if you get a group or player with the sole purpose of destroying that immersion well, it's gone, it's busted.

Therein lies the problem with multiplayer, you can switch off from the above all you want but it is always going to be pushed in your face by those who just have to remind you the obvious, "it's just a game!" With that constant reminder the magic begins to ebb and fade, it becomes a meta game, a game of numbers, a game of chores to be repeated over and over again.

So, IMHO it's all about the the RP community, only this has the ability to take a brilliantly designed game and turn it into something truly unbelievable.

 

[Mobius]

I agree with that, and im guessing that everyone who backed ED will be playing with immersion in mind. its only when the game gets a steam greenlight or the game goes gold that we will start to see those EVE players turning up to ruin everything.

 

[StarTux]

I agree with that, and im guessing that everyone who backed ED will be playing with immersion in mind. its only when the game gets a steam greenlight or the game goes gold that we will start to see those EVE players turning up to ruin everything.

Not all Eve players are bad, but if you mean the ones who like to grief, infiltrate a guild/clan and take all of its money and loot, they are already over on the SC forums.

The way the game is designed, if rules are in place and enforced will determine whether the style of game they like will actually be allowed, oh and another factor; ED will be twitch based, most of the games they have a heavy and successful presence in are MMO's. Finally with the grouping system maybe they'll be able to keep to themselves?

 

[Susimetsa]

Immersion, personally I think only the RP community can offer this.

I very must agree with this (and the rest of the post. Since "immersion" is about "living another life", it is not only the believable game and universe mechanics (consistency), but also (and foremostly in multiplayer games) the other players that you meet and interact with.

To go a step further, I feel that even playing the game with a Skype or another "out of game" connection with the other players will easily break the immersion, since you will be communicating with them even when the game would not allow it (such as after your ship and/or its comms systems have been destroyed, or when the ship has jumped to another system etc.)

 

[Jenner]

Not all Eve players are bad, but if you mean the ones who like to grief, infiltrate a guild/clan and take all of its money and loot, they are already over on the SC forums.

So I've heard. I've kinda stopped visiting, although I used to spend quite a lot of time there.

I really hope the community here can stay classy.

 

[Susimetsa]

I really hope the community here can stay classy.

I'm not sure we are talking about the same community here...

 

[Allen Stroud]

I very must agree with this (and the rest of the post. Since "immersion" is about "living another life", it is not only the believable game and universe mechanics (consistency), but also (and foremostly in multiplayer games) the other players that you meet and interact with.

To go a step further, I feel that even playing the game with a Skype or another "out of game" connection with the other players will easily break the immersion, since you will be communicating with them even when the game would not allow it (such as after your ship and/or its comms systems have been destroyed, or when the ship has jumped to another system etc.)

That depends on the way in which out of game communications are used and the imaginative contrivance made by the individual to use it. I'm afraid, your postulation denies the possibility for a person to create fictional contrivance which they accept and therefore allows them to remain immersed. The Immersion process starts and ends with the individual. The constructor of the environment can only create things to encourage it or discourage it.

I once got into a conversation with a costume festival attender who tried to persuade me that modern toilets should be removed from the camping field and be replaced with medieval latrines because they 'broke the immersion'.

I think often game designers make the mistake of trying to encapsulate what the fictionalised role of the player is with too much precise detail, forgetting perhaps that it is the individual playing the game who becomes immersed through their own imaginative engagement.

The trouble with the term "roleplaying" in any discussion on this is the trappings attached to it. By this I mean "to play a role" indicates immersing oneself within a different character. However, when the term is invoked, many of the conventions of tabletop, LRP or Fantasy games like World of Warcraft are invoked. Its actually better to strip all that back and just discuss immersion itself and determine what components encourage it. Sometimes abstract ones that connect the player to the character, work best.

There is quite an insular body of academic theory associated with live immersion games in Norway. Occasionally, that body of theoretical work comes up with some fantastic ideas that can be applied to other mediums.

 

[Susimetsa]

Oh, I quite agree. My comment was meant more as a conversation provoker than my real opinion.

I once got into a conversation with a costume festival attender who tried to persuade me that modern toilets should be removed from the camping field and be replaced with medieval latrines because they 'broke the immersion'.

Yes, there are certain limits that I'm not willing to cross either. Even when attending medieval or 17th century fairs, I still like taking a real, warm shower in the mornings (and sleeping in a real bed in a hotel, if possible).

 

[Herik]

As I said earlier: It's all about WHAT immerses one in a game... some things E.D will be able to provide, some not so much.

For me, immersion comes from the believability of the world immerse myself into. That doesn't mean it has to be realistic, mind you, it just should function under believable rules. Like, say, Skyrim is a fantasy world in which every NPC, monster and item has a place... every game mechanic makes sense in the bigger picture.

Also: A virtual world has to feel alive... one problem I always had with EVE was: It's a universe of 100ks of worlds, but everyone I ever met was either a player, or a station NPC... who are pretty much talking heads giving you missions. I never felt any of the rich lore that was supposed to be there.

Finally: Visual presentation has to homogenous... one art style and flair should be represented everywhere in the game.

That are immersion factors for me...

Good points! on those immersion elements Warbaby2

 

[Variform]

Yes and no... diversity can be a great tool, but diversity for diversities sake can become pretty boring in itself if used too often... but yea, that's what I learned over the last 20 years of wiring pen and paper adventures.

What I meant with "homogenous style" was: Consistency, not uniformity. Technologies, cultures, history,... all that has to be consistent and "believable" in the bigger picture of the game world to really be immersive. That doesn't necessarily mean it has to be boring or samey... dunno if it that makes sense.

Yes that makes sense. Those 15 writers are in close contact with FD aren't they? So consistency will be guaranteed between the different stories they are writing.

Makes me slightly jealous. I would love to have access to that information because writing in the dark and maybe getting things absolutely anti-canon is not what I want happening.

 

[Variform]

Therein lies the problem with multiplayer, you can switch off from the above all you want but it is always going to be pushed in your face by those who just have to remind you the obvious, "it's just a game!" With that constant reminder the magic begins to ebb and fade, it becomes a meta game, a game of numbers, a game of chores to be repeated over and over again.

So, IMHO it's all about the the RP community, only this has the ability to take a brilliantly designed game and turn it into something truly unbelievable.

Well I find that remark interesting, where you say it becomes a numbers game.

This strikes me as very true. I played Runes of Magic and in this MMO, like many others, people tend to run it like a spreadsheet. In ROM you can upgrade or 'stat' your gear. So the first thing they go for is the best gear from an instance. It has to be high durability (hd), with the perfect stat on it preferably.
After that they grind and farm to get the different possible currencies to buy gear from NPC's that you can rip the stat out of. They need 6 stats per gear piece. And they have to be perfect in the numbers to get the maximal possible statistics.

They suffer for weeks grinding instances to go from 12.000 power in some aspect to 12.500.

That kills off any sort of immersion. I woke up to MMO's, at least, of that style. There is no roleplaying, but I don't care much about to be honest. MMO's are often loathsome money schemes, where the designers plan every single part of the game to milk you for your money and they do so by using psychological manipulation of the highest order.

I am burnt out on MMO's. I have friends playing Lords of the Ring Online, but I couldn't join them, they played Star Wars, I just couldn't. Now they are maxed I hear about the money schemes, pay to advance from 50 to 55. Pay for this, or that, here and there.

I like ED to be an MMO. But this is gonna be a different style of MMO it seems. I like immersion, I like to provide it if I can by writing some fan fiction. Or work with developers. But when I play the game I don't care so much about 'lolz' or 'noobz'. I like cooperative play, with a small group of friends as we try to achieve our personal or team goals.

I think true immersion is found in offline games. Where you sit alone in your darkened room, with snacks around you and your creative mind spinning fantasies about your character and finding the energy within to study that stock market, find those mining spots or lose sense of reality as you dogfight an tough enemy.

And then the phone rang...

 

[Susimetsa]

And then the phone rang...

It doesn't if you keep it on silent at all times like I do...

 

[Valkyrie]

So I've heard. I've kinda stopped visiting, although I used to spend quite a lot of time there.

I really hope the community here can stay classy.

Ditto, I quite like our community it's really nice after so many years to find people who love the same flavour of icecream I do.. and most of them are as mature to really enjoy it too.

 

[Variform]

Do you think this maturity for as much as it exists will be found in-game by people using the group system? So they create private groups for roleplaying to enhance immersive experiences?

 

[Susimetsa]

Do you think this maturity for as much as it exists will be found in-game by people using the group system? So they create private groups for roleplaying to enhance immersive experiences?

That's one of the reasons I hope for permanent groups, instead of transitional (only exist while members are online). With permanent groups, you would log in and know that you are in your familiar, mature pro-roleplaying group.

 

[Valkyrie]

I think immersion to me is like planning to watch 2 minutes of a film to see if it looks interesting and then ending up watching the whole thing from start to finish in one sitting, then waking up to reality at the end after having experienced this amazing journey.

I really do hope Elite Dangerous, especially once we have EVA and planetary landing, is this and so much more.

 

[Allen Stroud]

Immersion, personally I think only the RP community can offer this. FD can build an absolutely stunning universe with great mechanics, they can make your mouths drop open, your eyes pop out ... but ... if you get a group or player with the sole purpose of destroying that immersion well, it's gone, it's busted.

Therein lies the problem with multiplayer, you can switch off from the above all you want but it is always going to be pushed in your face by those who just have to remind you the obvious, "it's just a game!" With that constant reminder the magic begins to ebb and fade, it becomes a meta game, a game of numbers, a game of chores to be repeated over and over again.

So, IMHO it's all about the the RP community, only this has the ability to take a brilliantly designed game and turn it into something truly unbelievable.

I was discussing the ways in which immersion can be transplanted between different past times the other day.

Within more participatory environments, the accepted practices in communication, costume, names, etc... are set in a hierarchical pyramid. The players who play more, pass on experience in a similar way in which they might pass on other in game information. Quite often, this process sets the tone and can make for some very interesting societal quirks.

For example, if you are going into a dangerous PvP area and are given a challenge password, you might be able to pass through the zone. This password starts as privileged information, but eventually becomes parlance for "I'm not up for a fight", etc...

I mentioned at Lavecon in July, the advantage the Elite community has is through experience. Experience in playing other games and finding the immersion element lacking. Many people who attended looked around and saw other people they want to play the game with. People who are respectful of the game's fictional world and want to immerse themselves in it. As writers of official fiction, we need these participants. Our work will hopefully, tie in with their impressions of the game's fictional premise and enhance it.

Frontier Developments play their part in this as well. The 3D cockpit is a nice touch to assist immersion, as is the developed background, occulus support and evolving 'world' (Galaxy). If we want to make the game immersive, we can assist by establishing rituals when we get into Alpha and Beta, which are passed on and perpetuated in the wider releases. In fact, the staged testing, with a Gamma release, will help with this even more.

Yes that makes sense. Those 15 writers are in close contact with FD aren't they? So consistency will be guaranteed between the different stories they are writing.

There is quite a body of guidance material available for writers. There are quite a few more than fifteen engaged in official projects. Discussions related to consistency are continuous and ongoing, with a final approval process at the end through Frontier Developments.