Astronomy / Space Found: a black hole 12bn times the size of the sun

I thought the 'big bang' theory was questionable these days?

Not really, given the cosmic microwave background and the plasma/cooling barrier and other very solid evidence. It wasn't a "bang" it was a rapid rapid expansion of space/time and matter. Fred Hoyle, who coined the term "big bang" was being sarcastic - but it stuck. (Hoyle was a proponent of a steady-state, a theory that Hubble pretty conclusively demolished when he discovered incontrovertible evidence of expansion)

Edit: this is a good overview, including some of the amazing recent stuff about dark matter/energy.

[video=youtube;EjaGktVQdNg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjaGktVQdNg[/video]
 
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Not really, given the cosmic microwave background and the plasma/cooling barrier and other very solid evidence. It wasn't a "bang" it was a rapid rapid expansion of space/time and matter. Fred Hoyle, who coined the term "big bang" was being sarcastic - but it stuck. (Hoyle was a proponent of a steady-state, a theory that Hubble pretty conclusively demolished when he discovered incontrovertible evidence of expansion)

The big bang started it all. The rapid expansion is called "inflation" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflation_(cosmology)

On a related note, I'm still bummed by the BICEP2 results http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/crux/2015/02/02/bicep2-discovery-gravitational-waves/#.VO6UhLPF-Hw

-- Edit --

To be clear, the lack of significance found by BICEP2 in no way compromises the big bang theory.
 
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Black holes in the center of galaxies like quasars, bl lac objects, radio galaxies, and other agn and the are really, really big. Pardon my technical language there. They make Sag A look like something, very very small. These new discovery is presumably one of these active galaxies. And having flipped through the article the OP posted, it is a distant quasar.

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So it's 12bn LY away, and 12bn times the size of the sun?

Interesting coincidence in the numbers.

There is some wiggle room in determing the distance of objects like this in units like light years (or, more likely the original paper mentioned Megaparsecs). You measure the redshift. The conversion of redshift to lightyears depends on certain assumptions on makes about the underlying cosmological model of the universe, in particular the value of the cosmological constant. Off the top of my head - and don't quote me on this - the object could actually be 11 or 12 or 13 or 15 bly distant. Anyway you look at, its pretty far out there.
 
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I faintly remember reading that we've recently found universes or other cosmic bodies whose age(s) pre-date the big-bang.

Not recently. There was a rather famous mistake in which, when Hubble was first trying to use red-shifting to back-calculate the age of the universe, it turned out to be less than what they thought (at the time) was the age of The Earth. That was a bit embarrassing but it was pretty obviously wrong. That was all fixed by, mmmm, about 1930-40.

The only really earth-shaking (if you forgive the pun) recent find in cosmology is the discovery that the expansion of the universe is accellerating. That's not a theory; that's been measured. It appears to be a result of a bunch of "missing energy" (which is mass also) that's still inflating the universe - "dark energy" and "dark matter" comprise about 95% or so of the universe and nobody knows what it is, yet. The universe as we see it, with all the galaxies and suns and astronomers and ED are sort of a frothy scum on a giant pool of dark matter/energy that we can measure by its gravitational effect but so far that's it.

The Lawrence Krauss video I linked above goes into it all in rapid, interesting, superficial detail. Highly recommended (though Krauss is a bit of a prat) Krauss' talk also explains the problem of, and techniques for, measuring galactic distance without a tape-measure or ability to triangulate. It's exceedingly clever, though it's got a margin of error.

There are a lot of crank physics theories, so if you care about this stuff it's always a good idea to check multiple sources. The most recent one I ran into was some doofus at a party explaining that quantum electrodynamics was completely wrong and that the universe was "made of electricity" or some such. I had to explain to him that if QED was wrong, your computer wouldn't work. The fact that fiberoptic cables carrying voice and data traffic work, is evidence that QED is not just accurate; it's amazingly accurate. There are parts of it that are missing, still, like a quantum theory of the nucleus and that's got a lot to do with the excitement about the Higgs field.

Addendum: since time was created along with the other 3 dimensions of the universe during the "big bang" it's really not possible to say something existed in the universe prior to the event. Because there wasn't anyplace for it to exist and there was no "prior" either. There are various many-universes and many-dimension theories but they're untestable at this time, which means they are about as much hogwash as religion.
 
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I thought the 'big bang' theory was questionable these days?

There are people that question (quite correctly) the theory but it is still widely accepted as the most likely scenario based on observation. The other theories including brane theory have their proponents but have yet to gain much of a foothold in the scientific world. From a personal point of view, brane theory is quite attractive (excuse the pun), it allows for unification of the known forces, it also allows for multiple universes being created multiple times.

Stick with the accepted theory for now. I remember years ago watching an interview with Halton Arp where he was discussing some of the dark nebula along with some of the other objects he has catalogued and bear his name. In the interview he questions red shift and quite effectively demonstrated why it wasn't a good measurement of distance. I found it intriguing and asked my university supervisor if we shouldn't be taking this into account, the reaction can only be described as volcanic. I wish I had never asked.
 
In the interview he questions red shift and quite effectively demonstrated why it wasn't a good measurement of distance. I found it intriguing and asked my university supervisor if we shouldn't be taking this into account, the reaction can only be described as volcanic. I wish I had never asked.

Dogma has that way of making people like that.
 
In the interview he questions red shift and quite effectively demonstrated why it wasn't a good measurement of distance.

It's not!! It's a good measurement of relative velocity. Multiply that by time and you get distance.

Seriously, unless you mis-reported it, that's such a horrendous mistake that anyone should have fallen over laughing at it.

Dogma has that way of making people like that.

It's not "dogma" which is theory based on faith or authority (literally, from the Greek: that which seems to be an opinion/belief) - it's theory based on non-contradicting evidence.

For someone to overturn the big bang all they have to do is present a theory that is not contradicted by any of the observable evidence, or to identify a flaw in the big bang theory that is supported by observable evidence. The problem with doing that is that there's a preponderance of evidence for the big bang-- including evidence confirming the theory with predictive power -- and other theories are not as well supported by or conforming with observation.

Predictive power is one of the key things that helps bolster a theory. If a theory says, "according to this theory, if we're ever able to observe X, we should observe it consistent with Y and Z ... " and it later does: that shows that extrapolations based on the theory also align with the theory. That's not complete confirmation but it's pretty much over and done once a theory starts having predictive power. For example, the big bang predicts that the universe was once very small and very hot; the only form matter would exist in would be a plasma, until the universe expanded to a certain point and it cooled enough to coalesce into normal state. Plasma is interesting because it's opaque to certain kinds of radiation; the big bang theory therefore predicts that there would be a sort of wall, far enough out, past which it would be impossible to make observations. And, guess what? Turns out that when our technology got good enough we discover that there's a barrier we can't see past - that's an observation that's completely aligned with predictions arising from big bang theory.

More to the point, someone trying to say the big bang didn't happen, such as a steady-stater (hint: there are no steady-staters any more, they're like people who believe the Earth is flat) would have to have a theory that encompassed and explained the cosmic microwave background radiation, also.

I was at a dinner party once and was talking to some quack who had bought the whole "electron universe" malarkey, and basically was saying a whole bunch of stuff was wrong. So I asked him how electron universe explains observations that were in line with general relativity but which weren't predicted by his theory; such as gravitic lensing. *crickets*

Science cuts both ways: if you want to overthrow an established theory you need to find evidence that contradicts that theory, and then - ideally - offer a new theory that encompasses all the existing observations plus the contradicting observation. This is why you'll note that the great theories usually supplement and build atop earlier theories that had supporting evidence. For example, the universe is, for most purposes, Newtonian. Newton was right about practically everything except when things get small or very fast or huge, and what happens then. Einstein came along and supplemented Newton with a better understanding that beautifully encompassed Newton (because Newton was based on observable reality with the tools that were available at his time) and added a bunch of stuff that never occurred to Newton. So then you had scientists look at Einstein and predict from his theory that you could have, I dunno, gravity so strong it would bend light 100% into its gravity well - it would look like a "black hole" in space. And lo and behold years later, people observe black holes. Black holes aren't just random cool stuff; they are independent validation of one aspect of Einstein's general relativity.

Einstein rather casually predicted a phenomenon called "gravitic lensing" in which a huge mass might bend light the same way a piece of glass does. And then he said "We'll probably never have instruments precise enough to detect it..." He said that in ... 1939 or something like that. And then, now, the Hubble space telescope brings back pictures:
A_Horseshoe_Einstein_Ring_from_Hubble.JPG
That's a hubble shot of a galaxy behind another galaxy. The blue ring is the light of the rearmost galaxy, being bent around the nearer galaxy, in accordance with Einstein's theories. What's really bad-azz is that you can use the deflection of light to back-calculate the mass and "weigh" the nearer galaxy.

Einstein FTW.


By now there are so many validations of Einstein that nobody with any education about physics thinks Einstein is wrong but everyone who understands science will say "... of course it's not complete" Someone can come along with some new observations that supplement Einstein. Which is exactly what happened: Quantum mechanics does not contradict relativity; it builds on it and it also fulfils some of its predictions. So, that's beautiful.

The funny bit a lot of people don't seem to want to understand is if you want to try to dismiss something built on QM, you wind up dismissing (potentially) bits of relativity, and (potentially) bits of Newton. And when you run into someone saying that kind of crap, they're talking out their hat.

Edit: QM makes accurate predictions of behaviors of subatomic particles and so far none of those predictions has been wrong. That's pretty good. Quantum Electrodynamics explains everything from how our eyes see color to how our computers work. (Similarly: every GPS, including the one in your cell phone, is proof that Einstein's relativity was right enough to locate you to within a foot on the surface of the planet using the difference in transmission times between geosynchronous satellites in a gravitation field) When some bonehead says QM is wrong, they are saying to discard a theory that has been right about more things than most people can count. You gotta have some nobel prize-winning evidence to make a dent in a theory like that! It is hoped that someday there will be a version of QED that goes farther than current QED and deals with behaviors of and inside nuclei. Feynman and some really smart people busted their brains trying to figure that out. Maybe someone will, someday. But the odds that if someone comes up with a Quantum Nucleodynamics, it will build atop QED and won't disprove it.
 
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This is why you'll note that the great theories usually supplement and build atop earlier theories that had supporting evidence. For example, the universe is, for most purposes, Newtonian. Newton was right about practically everything except when things get small or very fast or huge, and what happens then. Einstein came along and supplemented Newton with a better understanding that beautifully encompassed Newton (because Newton was based on observable reality with the tools that were available at his time) and added a bunch of stuff that never occurred to Newton.
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants."
-Isaac Newton
 
"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants."
-Isaac Newton

"Oh, Isaac, I am sorry I am standing on your head." - Albert Einstein.

"It's OK, Albert, let me put this ladder on your back." - Richard Feynman

Meanwhile Stephen Hawking runs his electric wheelchair up Feynman's ladder.

... And so the great cycle continues.
 
It's not!! It's a good measurement of relative velocity. Multiply that by time and you get distance.

Seriously, unless you mis-reported it, that's such a horrendous mistake that anyone should have fallen over laughing at it.

Agree on the relative velocity (although slightly pedantic :) )

Not mis-reported at all. See Arps page on Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halton_Arp or indeed on Arps own page http://www.haltonarp.com and no I don't see it as laughable at all, you have to remember that in those days very little was actually known about the universe at all and yes today if we made such statements you would indeed be ridiculed.

BTW I think your forum name Surly_Badger is one of the best I have seen. Brilliant.
 
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"Oh, Isaac, I am sorry I am standing on your head." - Albert Einstein.

"It's OK, Albert, let me put this ladder on your back." - Richard Feynman

Meanwhile Stephen Hawking runs his electric wheelchair up Feynman's ladder.



... And so the great cycle continues.

Hawkings gets up the ladder only to find Newton standing there look bemused at Einsteins feet on his head.
 
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