The Star Citizen Thread v 3.0

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Hmm I'm confused, is the official story still that it's not about purchasing ships, but about pledging support for the game with ships just being a pledge reward? Or are we finally ready to call a spade a spade?

Also, any word about whether the fps stuff will be actually tied into the space game when it becomes available? Or are they just gonna do a couple deathmatch and CTF-maps that you select from a dropdown menu? (Here's hoping for the former, and not the latter...)
 
I meant that if you treat it like a space sim and not exploit the unique mechanics of the E:D flight model, you will be at a disadvantage. For example, I frequently use roll and pitch instead of yaw (although it isn't natural), and I also keep the throttle in the "blue zone" so that my strafe and orientational thrusters become more powerful (which doesn't make any sense from a physical standpoint).


Hmm, they don't 'become more powerful' - the flight computer (even in Assist off) allows more thrust to be applied by them. It's a set of gameplay mechanics imposed by the designers, and we can either take it for what it is and get some enjoyment out of it, or leave it and not play. Personally, I quite enjoy it and find it fun - even if it slaps reality in the face.


Do you have strafe mapped to an axis or just buttons? I found that a fine strafe control is essential, especially for docking.

I tried with the X-52 Pro at first, but couldn't get warm with it. Also, I fear I will yank out the joystick because the ship turns so slow, even at full deflection. I use the X-52 Pro with SC though, but with yaw on x-axis instead of roll like in atmo-sims.

I use a hat switch on the throttle for strafe - I seem to get on fine with that.
My HOTAS is a Thrustmaster Warthog, so I'm not worried about yanking it about as it would probably survive a nuclear explosion :). I also use it for Star Citizen, and like you I put yaw on the X-axis. Also, I find the most enjoyable way to fly in Star Citizen is with gimbals locked, IFCS on and COMSTAB on (which means slow turning at low and high speeds - similar to Elite). Though I must confess that I do switch them off to do a fast turn, then back on again.

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Hmm I'm confused, is the official story still that it's not about purchasing ships, but about pledging support for the game with ships just being a pledge reward? Or are we finally ready to call a spade a spade?

Also, any word about whether the fps stuff will be actually tied into the space game when it becomes available? Or are they just gonna do a couple deathmatch and CTF-maps that you select from a dropdown menu? (Here's hoping for the former, and not the latter...)

I think we will get both, the latter first. We have deathmatch space combat already, I think it's reasonably OK to assume we'll have FPS deathmatches too - and that's OK by me, it's a place to practice . . .
 
Last what I heard was that the flight model is not being worked on because the developer had no time for it, and that it will change.

Source!?! It is the 2nd time I hear something like that, the first time was that only one guy was working on the flight model.
 
Polygon has a nice article:

http://www.polygon.com/features/2015/3/2/8131661/star-citizen-chris-roberts-interview

Edit:

Seems like their new Frankfurt office will focus on the Cryengine.

The relatively newly formed group in Frankfurt, for instance are made up of a lot people from Crytek, he says.

"Frankfurt is 17 now and it is probably going to be 40 in six to seven months," Roberts says. "A lot of them are core Crytek guys. Last year, Crytek has some financial issues and I think it spooked some of the people."

That combined with the developers wanting to work on the sort of game that would push the technology of the CryEngine helped RSI land a new team in Frankfurt.

"They're doing a lot of free to play stuff at Crytek, some of the engineers who built that engine were looking for a job," Robert says. "Epic was making them offers, id was making them offers and we were like, ‘, this is the engine we're going to be using for years if we're successful, we can't lose that brain trust.' So we stepped in and said, ‘Don't go to Epic or go to id, we would be happy to set you up in Frankfurt and you can sort of work on Star Citizen.'"
 
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You don't need to be a game developer to criticize game development on a public forum.

You do need to decent understanding of game producion to be able to have valid argument that make sense to real problem for game still mid or early in production.

There is limit to put as many workers in parralel on a production. The studios are large a huge team. But there still modules ands sub components that depend on each other. Which extends production time.

The space craft content pipeline is rather complex as there are lot of features related to the space craft.
These assets are deliverd in many fases. Each demand some rework or much more iteration to get the full features up and running. And with each fase where it get public avaible there is a need to balance.

If you know that what ever balance work you do is very fast unvalid in the future as ships iterate further new feature comes implemented which brakes balance. And each new spacecraft needs to be balanced to each other so each new space craft brakes that to. So make sense to do not extreem expensive balancing for a not final fase and also when there are still not a lot of the space craft types not jet fully implemented.
About the hotas isue. People forget that this genre and type off game offers genre merges and multy gameplay complexity. Gamers will choose some but often not all.
Hotas is specific only relevant to the fighter class dogfighting. And the gamers who focus on fighter combat gameplay.

Mouse keyboard is the defauld for every possible gameplay that is offered.
AC is at the moment very fighter gameplay limited. But biggership offer a much more different gameplay.
Which add to the balance complexity.

Also the more hardcore and fighter centered the game is the larger the hotas joystick players. The more broader the more gamers depending on default HID.
Maybe also the reason most backers don't play AC at all or not much is that is not there choice of gameplay they would choose to do. So for a part of the backers these isues aren't relevant. As for me backer of mostly multicrew space craft these aren't even not jet implemented for AC. Lot of backers might be waiting for there favorite gameplay part is offered public to alfa and beta test.
 
You do need to decent understanding of game producion to be able to have valid argument that make sense to real problem for game still mid or early in production.

There is limit to put as many workers in parralel on a production. The studios are large a huge team. But there still modules ands sub components that depend on each other. Which extends production time.

The space craft content pipeline is rather complex as there are lot of features related to the space craft.
These assets are deliverd in many fases. Each demand some rework or much more iteration to get the full features up and running. And with each fase where it get public avaible there is a need to balance.

If you know that what ever balance work you do is very fast unvalid in the future as ships iterate further new feature comes implemented which brakes balance. And each new spacecraft needs to be balanced to each other so each new space craft brakes that to. So make sense to do not extreem expensive balancing for a not final fase and also when there are still not a lot of the space craft types not jet fully implemented.
About the hotas isue. People forget that this genre and type off game offers genre merges and multy gameplay complexity. Gamers will choose some but often not all.
Hotas is specific only relevant to the fighter class dogfighting. And the gamers who focus on fighter combat gameplay.

Mouse keyboard is the defauld for every possible gameplay that is offered.
AC is at the moment very fighter gameplay limited. But biggership offer a much more different gameplay.
Which add to the balance complexity.

Also the more hardcore and fighter centered the game is the larger the hotas joystick players. The more broader the more gamers depending on default HID.
Maybe also the reason most backers don't play AC at all or not much is that is not there choice of gameplay they would choose to do. So for a part of the backers these isues aren't relevant. As for me backer of mostly multicrew space craft these aren't even not jet implemented for AC. Lot of backers might be waiting for there favorite gameplay part is offered public to alfa and beta test.

What does any of that have to do with removed aim and flight on the same control? You know the very thing CIG said they would not do? You can not balance the game when the basic foundation of the control is broken/wrong. How do you know any of it works when its broken?
 

Ripley

Banned
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What does any of that have to do with removed aim and flight on the same control? You know the very thing CIG said they would not do?

Can you provide a source for that statement ?
 
Can you provide a source for that statement ?

https://forums.robertsspaceindustri...ying-more-like-wing-commander-than-freelancer

Ben Lesnick was interviewed by someone called Dr Hawk who does a show called Citizen FM

When asked about the flight model in the (then) upcoming Arena Commander in March 2013, a direct question "Will the flight be similar to Freelancer?" Ben responded as follows...

"Nothing like like Freelancer... Wing Commander with a much deeper flight model"
"It's a game where you need some skill to suceed, no click to win EVE or Diablo style - ie get the best thing and click to win"
"No advantage for having lots of money." ( best pilot wins )
 

Ripley

Banned
https://forums.robertsspaceindustri...ying-more-like-wing-commander-than-freelancer

Ben Lesnick was interviewed by someone called Dr Hawk who does a show called Citizen FM

When asked about the flight model in the (then) upcoming Arena Commander in March 2013, a direct question "Will the flight be similar to Freelancer?" Ben responded as follows...

Isn't that guy the just a community/forum manager? I doubt he as any say in how the game is made...

Looking for a Official Dev source, Chris Roberts for instance. I liked Freelancer controllers but never played in 3rd person since at the time I never owned a joystick, after purchasing one I can't play with the same enthusiasm if im using just mouse and keyboard! Joystick will always be more fun manoeuvring the spaceships.
 
Isn't that guy the just a community/forum manager? I doubt he as any say in how the game is made...

Looking for a Official Dev source, Chris Roberts for instance. I liked Freelancer controllers but never played in 3rd person since at the time I never owned a joystick, after purchasing one I can't play with the same enthusiasm if im using just mouse and keyboard! Joystick will always be more fun manoeuvring the spaceships.

http://youtu.be/Q4wsWsh3kWM?t=39m20s

They lied.
Sometimes such a simple truth is harder to comprehend and accept.
 
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So according to CR the 64bit transition is mostly done.
http://imperialnews.network/2015/03/10-chairman-episode-55-transcript/

But we will not see any change in AC. Some interesting stuff.

Answer: “It’s going quite well. In fact, when everyone gets 1.1, they’ll be playing in the engine that is mostly in 64 bit. While players won’t really appreciate because it’ll still be old maps, and the final element that has not been moved across is the rendering side of stuff (which has to go to camera relative).

So the rendering and the 3d pipeline is still gonna be in 32 bit, mainly because the GPUs all run 32 bit, and there’s no real point to running 32 bit with rendering, because when you’re figuring what’s around you that you can see, that’s perfectly fine with the 32 bit range. What’s not fine is with a huge solar system that you’re gonna travel millions of miles across.

So we’ve essentially moved everything aside from the sound module in CryEngine and the rendering pipeline to 64 bit. Now, it will actually be in 1.1, so it’s part of our regressive testing.

So we’re in the middle now of doing the camera relative change, which is where you take the camera and its positions in 64 bit and any of the elements you’re rendering in their global 64 bit positions, and then you figure out the relative distance between them, and that turns into a 32 bit number and that goes through the rendering pipeline.

So that’s where we are in the process, and we’re almost done with it – so when you guys play 1.1, you’ll have most of the code running in 64 bit, for all the positions and matrices and such. But it’ll just be dealing with areas and ranges inside our current map range, which are designed to work well with the positions of 32 bit, even though you’ll be playing in 64 bit.

It is a required change for multicrew ships, mainly because we have large world plus the local grid physics stuff that demoed a little bit when we did Gamescom last year.

And we have the Zone System that we’re working on, which allows us to do a much better job of efficiently organizing and including and updating entities, objects, render elements, and such in a sparse area structure.

Typically, in most FPSes, they use something like an octree, which works really well for something like an FPS level, where there is a pretty constant density of objects which are all pretty high density. Because in an FPS level, you’re running around but not actually moving that fast, so there are objects everywhere – objects every single meter, so there are thousands or tens of thousands of objects.

But in Star Citizen, we have objects of high density, like a spaceship, which can have a lot of moving parts and people on board it, but then have a whole area of space with nothing in it (since space is mostly empty). And then you can get into a spaceship battle where ships are firing laser bolts at each other, and so that battle area will be really dense.

So an octree is really inefficient for that difference between a very sparse amount of data and a very dense amount of data. So we’ve been working on the Zone System, which is being led out of our German office, which is being staffed by a lot of engineers who built CryEngine. So we’ll have more to announce down the road, but we’ve got some legendary people – some of the best you can hire – working on this.

So one of the things we’re working on is finishing not only the large world, but the Zone System, which is what will allow us to be a lot more efficient about updating stuff. So it’ll make our rendering more efficient, it will allow us to occlude – ‘okay, here’s a big spaceship, I’m outside it, so I don’t need to render the interior zone, I don’t need to update the interior zone.’

So in terms of dealing with bigger space combats with big ships, like an Idris or a Bengal, and then smaller ships like fighters, and then people running around inside the ship and outside, the Zone System is really good at breaking those down into different areas of data density.

So that’s what we’re working on – again, with the Zone System, so in terms of flying between areas, you can have Earth and an orbit around Earth, and an orbit around the Moon. And then between them, there’s nothing. And as you enter a zone, the System might say, ‘Okay, let’s stream in the moon, and lets stream in the space station that’s around the moon, and let’s stream in the asteroids that are hanging out here, and lets stream in the spaceships that are hanging out here.’ And also, the space station around the moon could be another Zone inside. And so you’d stream that in, and it comes attached with more Zones inside. So it’s really good for updating and rendering and occlusion, and all that stuff.

So the Zone System and 64 bit and local grid are all things we really need to have the large ships work efficiently in a place where people can come and go and we can have lots of stuff happen. Because there’s a lot of people who are wondering, ‘How are you gonna manage to have these big spaceship battles.’ And it just requires a different approach on how we’re going to update and render and even communicate on the network.

Because the Zone System also would be used for figuring out how what level of network updates we’d use, what level of updates we’d use, what you see and don’t see. So all these things together, that’s all gonna be in multicrew ship combat, and that’s the foundational stuff for big space flying around over huge distances, going from planet to planet, and other stuff like that.

So that’s all in progress, and I think it’s gonna be pretty good. We’re seeing some really great performance gains in the Zone System way compared to the traditional octree system way. So there you go – probably more of a technical dump than you guys were expecting, but that’s it!”
 
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What does any of that have to do with removed aim and flight on the same control? You know the very thing CIG said they would not do? You can not balance the game when the basic foundation of the control is broken/wrong. How do you know any of it works when its broken?

Pretty much this. There have been huge concerns over this debacle even before DFM now AC was released to the backers, hell a year before it was given to us. It's when CIG members tried to hush down this conversation with different remarks and comments stating that is not how it would be. People raised these concerns because it's not possible to balance joystick/gamepad and mouse on an equal footing when a mouse is given both flight and aim at the same time. When AC was first released, everyone raised hell because it was the exact same thing we had concerns over for the longest time. Heck, the closest the controllers came to balance was sometimes in .9 but then CIG allowed pilots to chose which targeting method they wanted and it basically negated all their effort.

The simplest balance perspective is, if the mouse wants to both aim and fly at the same time, then they must use another peripheral to utilize that aim while they use the mouse to fly. This is basically what joystick and gamepad players are forced to do right now, they have to use head tracking, which is no where close as good as mouse/flight aim combined. The mouse was artificially given, as in it was programmed that way to both have flight and aim combined while the other controllers are not. Even if the other controllers had flight and aim combined, it would still be no where as equal because the mouse is a zero order controller.

CIG has basically opened a huge can of worms balance wise when they introduced Freelancer controls, you really cannot balance that. If you want to balance all 3, either truly separate the flight from aim like it is separate on joystick/gamepad and force the users to purchase another peripheral to utilize to full advantage, or give gimbals to AI control like it is in Elite and you will basically avoid the balance issues.

The mouse would not be op if the flight and aim was separate function, but when it is, it becomes OP. Nobody here is saying nerf mouse or make it not a viable option, on the contrary, everyone wants you to play with your preferred controller, so far, the mouse is artificially buffed.

Time will tell how CIG will end up dealing with this, but if the controls remain as they are, joystick players will either leave the game or be forced to switch to mouse/keyboard to stay competitive on the higher levels.
 
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