Open letter to Devs, Why I am now combat logging and what to do with this pirate.

[Sandmann]

In my opinion, the perfect thing to do here is to implement a better criminal system, sort of like Ultima Online had.

I never played UO but this is.is very similar to a system I proposed here ages ago.

Criminal acts can get fines, bounties, and warrants. Fines and bounties work the same as now, warrants are only for murder, do not expire, and can not be paid off except through specialised black markets in anarchy systems at exporbitant rates. While there is a warrant against you, you may only dock at anarchy and "pirate" stations, other stations and platforms will shoot you on sight. Having a warrant however entitles you to join a fourth major faction - "Outlaw". Membership in the faction will grant you (very small, say 2-5%) discount on repairs at anarchy and pirate stations. If you can find a specialised black market, you are required to do a few missions for them first (to prove they can trust you) scaled to match your rank etc, then pay an exorbitant fee (such as the twice the value of your warrant (for the fence's fee) plus the value of the ship and cargo you destroyed to "bribe the victim's family into dropping the charges", at which time the warrant will convert back to a bounty which the pirate can pay.

The idea is to make it barely possible to come back... and reasonably attractive to stay as a REAL outlaw.

 

[Sim Maker]

It's not even that complicated either. Sitting at a table discussing how to handle Pirates...and they come up with "Let's just let them fly into a station and pay off their crimes" was the BEST idea? That is sad. It holds true to the original I guess but in 2015, online, it doesn't work.

Yeah, in the old days it was a game mechanic to allow the single player to have a chance of continuing after some ballz ups...........today, it is abused, and just a licence for Puppy Pirates to kill traders(or anyone else weak they want to shoot at) , then run and pay off their fines before the Bounty Hunters or cops can get them...............very un-realistic and as can be seen by this and MANY other threads on this board...........a game mechanic that is utter poison to the community and Open/Solo..........It needs to be addressed.

 

[NewYears1978]

Yeah, in the old days it was a game mechanic to allow the single player to have a chance of continuing after some ballz ups...........today, it is abused, and just a licence for Puppy Pirates to kill traders(or anyone else weak they want to shoot at) , then run and pay off their fines before the Bounty Hunters or cops can get them...............very un-realistic and as can be seen by this and MANY other threads on this board...........a game mechanic that is utter poison to the community and Open/Solo..........It needs to be addressed.

It's also why I play in Mobius or Solo and not online..despite really needing that community aspect to even make the hold it's measure of fun.

 

[Draggin]

In my opinion, the perfect thing to do here is to implement a better criminal system, sort of like Ultima Online had.

Anyone here play in those days? Here is how it worked:

You had three Status Flags for players, which was Blue (Innocent), Gray (Flagged for a criminal activity) and Red (Murderers).
The system worked where no player could attack a blue player without consequences. If you attacked a Blue player, you got a temporary (time limited) Gray status. While Gray, you are "criminal flagged" and anyone can attack you. The gray would eventually wear off (in case you did this by accident, etc) however if you killed the player you attacked you then got a "murder count" against you. After 5 murder counts, you became Red.

Once red you were now a (semi) permanent criminal. You could no longer go to towns that had guards thus you were penalized by being limited to criminal based towns so you could shop and bank items. Anyone could attack you at any time also since you were red, however you could defend yourself without getting more murder counts.

Each murder count had a time limit stamp on it which if I recall was 8 hours of game time. So, if you murdered 5 people and then waited 8 hours one would drop off and you would be blue again, however if you killed 10 people and had 10 counts you are now going to be red for 8 hours per count til you hit four again (48 hours). So lifetime criminals have to CHOOSE this life and once they do they cannot easily just go back and forth like you can in ED by simply paying off the bounty.

Some system like this could work and work very well in ED.

It is dumb that I can go out and kill 5 people then pay a bounty and am "Clean" again.

Salute Commanders!

Here Here! UO player here from start of it... hmmm by that time I was...out of my 30's excellent system, and no idea how hard to port over to ED? +1 rep sir!

 

[Sanderson]

If it were me, I'd make bounties permanent, get rid of "stolen" or "marked" cargo, hot goods sell for regular price but, only at black markets and membership in EFP (Elite Federation of Pilots or whatever it's called) is revoked, so,,no more ranks for criminals. Furthermore, I'd give criminals a chance to pay the commander in order to wipe a bounty with the choice to accept payment and therefore clear the perp up to the victim,if the criminal ever decided to go "clean". I'd also mark all clean commanders with bounties determined by their rank (novice, expert,master etc.) so bad guys could collect for removing them, just like criminals are. Also, all criminals will be red on clean commanders scanners and clean will be red on criminals scanner.

I'd also introduce another power into the galaxy, underworld, I guess I'd call it, that's small, but, is just the opposite of regular powers like Feds,Emp, etc. They have system scattered throughout the galaxy, their own stations and outposts and would treat "good guys" just like bad guys are treated in the existing systems.


"Bad guys" get to exist with the penalty of being booted out of the EFP while gaining the ability, like everyone else, to thrive, if they have the skill.

As it is, there's hardly any risk or reward for being a bad guy and there's no way to tell a PK commander from a good one until they open fire. There's things on both sides that need tweaking, IMO, and the above would go a long way to fixing it.

 

[Sandmann]

There's a lot of similarity there between yours and mine. Must be a good idea.

 

[NewYears1978]

There's a lot of similarity there between yours and mine. Must be a good idea.

Two Thumbs up fellow pilot

 

[CloneWarrior85]

Angry little op, before you get upset people tell you thing you don't want to read, remember, make a decent topic title.

Also, if you really combat log, as much good will you had on this post, you should be banned, end of story.

As for criminals wiping their status, you have a problem? They PAY for wiping it, is that payment enough? Well, unless you spend some dozens of hours trading, it isn't, if you don't trade, it is a lot of money if you do it every time you kill someone, so deal with it.


Until criminal actions start PAYING up, you can't complain THAT MUCH about people wiping their bounties and stuff, because they aren't making money just loosing money, and not loosing that much.

Once they start being rewarded by their criminal actions, you will have the decent right to complain and ask FD to add a decent punishment system for criminals.



ED needs a lot of balance, specially around the crime sector, there is no profit to be made, and you can't simply be like that and want to punish players who aren't rewarded for playing the game like it's meant to be played.

 

[Sandmann]

Staying with a broken bounty system that makes a mockery of the very idea behind it won't make piracy any more profitable. And sorry, if you can afford to fly around in A grade cljppers and Asps then I don't believe your tales of poverty and hardship. Yes trading is profitable... and so what? It's SUPPOSED to be profitable, that is what it's FOR. There is no other reason to do it, so if it WASNT profitable noone would do it and you'd have noone to shoot at.

 

[NewYears1978]

Angry little op, before you get upset people tell you thing you don't want to read, remember, make a decent topic title.

Also, if you really combat log, as much good will you had on this post, you should be banned, end of story.

As for criminals wiping their status, you have a problem? They PAY for wiping it, is that payment enough? Well, unless you spend some dozens of hours trading, it isn't, if you don't trade, it is a lot of money if you do it every time you kill someone, so deal with it.


Until criminal actions start PAYING up, you can't complain THAT MUCH about people wiping their bounties and stuff, because they aren't making money just loosing money, and not loosing that much.

Once they start being rewarded by their criminal actions, you will have the decent right to complain and ask FD to add a decent punishment system for criminals.



ED needs a lot of balance, specially around the crime sector, there is no profit to be made, and you can't simply be like that and want to punish players who aren't rewarded for playing the game like it's meant to be played.

I totally disagree. Combat log, by design of the game, is allowed. The game should be designed in a way to prevent this, but it isn't and that is not a players fault. Also, the game should work as intended to not want to make people to do this. The OP in this case is right actually, at least in my opinion. The criminal system is broken, and the OP shouldn't be banned.

Also it's "losing" not "loosing" - I hate that spelling error

 

[SirKiwi]

I totally disagree. Combat log, by design of the game, is allowed. The game should be designed in a way to prevent this, but it isn't and that is not a players fault. Also, the game should work as intended to not want to make people to do this. The OP in this case is right actually, at least in my opinion. The criminal system is broken, and the OP shouldn't be banned.

Also it's "losing" not "loosing" - I hate that spelling error

Whether or not the criminal system is broken is up to debate and interpretation.

Whether or not combat logging is permitted isn't. It has been officially stated to be cheating, and FD said they will deal with combat loggers accordingly. OP may be banned because he cheated.

 

[NewYears1978]

Whether or not the criminal system is broken is up to debate and interpretation.

Whether or not combat logging is permitted isn't. It has been officially stated to be cheating, and FD said they will deal with combat loggers accordingly. OP may be banned because he cheated.

Never saw where this was deemed to be cheating..and how would a player, such as myself know this if it wasn't in some thing I checkboxed off after reading or something?
I never said I agree with combat logging but I sure see the justification. The system in place for criminals is stupid just like the OP described, also the P2P system which allows you to Combat Log in the first place is stupid. It's something that should have been worked on and fixed LONG before release.

There's really no excuse for it still being this way (except that maybe they are incapable of fixing it?). Also how can they identify an actual CTRL-ALT-DEL vs a CTD? (Honest question..maybe it's easy to catch, I have no clue..sincerely asking)

 

[Yabba Addict]

Never saw where this was deemed to be cheating..and how would a player, such as myself know this if it wasn't in some thing I checkboxed off after reading or something?

Um, you might wanna check the very first thread in this forum, always right at the top for everyone to see, le "Combat Logging:Update"

 

[The Brigadier]

I read the entire thread, and judging by the title I thought I wouldn't. As other people have suggested in detail, Elite Dangerous needs a proper, integrated, criminal bounty system. Paying off bounties for major crimes, is silly beyond words.

I want to see the tiered system from previous Elite games implemented here. I can't remember what they were exactly, but it included; "Criminal", "Outlaw", "Renegade", "Fugitive".

I really liked the idea of timed bounties, where for instance, you have to wait a set time before you can redeem yourself. Destroyed a legitimately "clean" ship? Then have a 24 hour timeout before you can clear it.

In an ideal world, you should get a large timed bounty and a meaningful hit on your reputation.

It would be great to have to work missions to pay your debt to society. This would give you a choice as to whether, to rebuild your reputation or commit to the criminal lifestyle.

If you say, "screw you pig! I'm not doing your community service". then you can either clear the bounty - or not - but your criminal reputation will start to build up and you will have to deal with the consequences. These could include being persona non grata in the system where the murder took place. However, surrounding systems would have to have some kind of response too.

Its so complex to flesh this out completely though. The unsanctioned outposts could be your savior. As your criminal reputation increases, you could command better prices at these outposts. Where's the Rock Hermit when you need him? The black markets at stations - if you can get to them - should give you much better prices.

The bottom line is this; Criminality must be a viable career path. With its pros and cons. Paying off a murder charge like a parking ticket, is not a 'con' and is totally insufficient.

...and I'm not even a criminal!

This is coming from The Brig for goodness sake.

Ps. Lets hope no one notices the the pirate is only killing your and cargo, as you make a quick exit in your escape pod. "You murdered my ship dammit!"

 

[Sandmann]

Never saw where this was deemed to be cheating..and how would a player, such as myself know this if it wasn't in some thing I checkboxed off after reading or something?
I never said I agree with combat logging but I sure see the justification. The system in place for criminals is stupid just like the OP described, also the P2P system which allows you to Combat Log in the first place is stupid. It's something that should have been worked on and fixed LONG before release.

There's really no excuse for it still being this way (except that maybe they are incapable of fixing it?). Also how can they identify an actual CTRL-ALT-DEL vs a CTD? (Honest question..maybe it's easy to catch, I have no clue..sincerely asking)

There's a sticky thread right at the top of the forum about it. Worth reading.

The reason they are not already banning people for it is for the very reasons you've detailed, it's difficult to tell the difference between breaking a process and a genuine ctd. They are running telemetry and recording data tho, and may start to take action in the future.

 

[NewYears1978]

Um, you might wanna check the very first thread in this forum, always right at the top for everyone to see, le "Combat Logging:Update"

I play solo so is probably why I never noticed it. I will read it but I still don't feel the OP is wrong in why he feels it necessary. Some of the mechanics are broke. I am playing right now so don't take me as a hater or something, I am actually playing and still having fun for the most part..but I think the game can (and hopefully will) be so much more. (Just see SC...if it ends up being what it looks like anyways)

There's a sticky thread right at the top of the forum about it. Worth reading.

The reason they are not already banning people for it is for the very reasons you've detailed, it's difficult to tell the difference between breaking a process and a genuine ctd. They are running telemetry and recording data tho, and may start to take action in the future.

Thanks


I just realized the reason I never saw it, I only use "New Posts" for my forum viewing. I never go in the actual forum sections.

 

[Chip Patton]

@OP I am agreeing with you here. Getting rid of your bounty is way too easy. I'm in agreement that an NPC bounty should be what it is and wipeable -- but a player bounty should be set by the TRANSGRESSED player.

This, in my opinion does a few things; firstly, no little expert cobra is going to interdict a dangerous or elite t7 and demand his cargo, as soon as he does; wham, 100,000,000 cr bounty he couldn't wipe in MONTHS. This will give traders more power -- balance and will give pirates pause from trying higher ranked traders. This can also open up a whole new aspect of the game: bluffing -- a trader can simply tell the pirate, "Run away now and I won't put this 5,000,000 bounty on your head for the interdiction".

There are a few things I look at when I dream up mechanics like this: Can you exploit it to grief? No. Is it fair? Yes.

Can you exploit it to grief? No.
Absolutely not. If you don't want a bounty, don't kill someone in cold-blood and don't rob them. Simple as that. If the only way you can get a bounty placed on you is by an interdiction of a trader or by being killed (not assaulted) by a player, then a player should be able to put what ever bounty they want on a pirate. Pirates already have very little risk while pirating and can easily wipe what little bounty they have, unlike bounty hunting bares a great risk with little bounty and trading -- well you're flying a flying paper can full of gold; anything that attacks has nearly zero risk. The risk needs to be in the credits. Pirates need a risk, and a player paid bounty is one of them.

Now most players aren't going to dump 10,000,000 cr bounty on someone, but if said pirate keeps ing off elite traders, he can expect to quickly get a 10,000,000 cr bounty. At some point the pirate will have to weight whether or not his exploits are worth it. Some sense can be used in picking the right targets -- like expert traders flying a brand new, T7, which you know good and damn well they don't have a wad of cash on hand to place bounties.

Is it fair? Yes.
Absolutely. If you murder a player, that player should be able to place a bounty on your head that the only way you can get rid of it is to die and have your credit loss subtract from the bounty (payable to the bounty hunter). This balances the power between bounty hunter, pirate, and trader -- giving the trader power of the purse, pirates power of cunning, and bounty hunters power of brawn (I'm personally liking the sound of this).

If you're a pirate, you likely loathe this idea in open play being its taking away your easy mode. If you're a trader, you likely love this idea because it gives you some recourse and a bargaining chip, and if you're a bounty hunter, you're likely over-joyed that you can actually make the same money a pirate can.

 

[kurush]

Absolutely. If you murder a player, that player should be able to place a bounty on your head that the only way you can get rid of it is to die and have your credit loss subtract from the bounty (payable to the bounty hunter). This balances the power between bounty hunter, pirate, and trader -- giving the trader power of the purse, pirates power of cunning, and bounty hunters power of brawn (I'm personally liking the sound of this).

So, let's say my cat offends you to the point where you are ready to place 10m bounty on my head. What would prevent me from jumping into a sidewinder and call a buddy or a second account to collect? That would be really a sucker game for people placing such bounties

 

[CMDR Holycow]

OP, I hope FD bans your account for cheating. And stop saying "whilst".

I do agree with you however, that bounties on people's heads should not be able to be paid off by the pirate. They should be permanent until killed. If turned in, their bounty returns to 0, and wanted status removed.

 

[Schattenbogen]

Why not have a permanent incremental counter which make it more and more long to be able to pay off ?
The more you kill/pirating, the more it is difficult to buy a new reputation.