Open letter to Devs, Why I am now combat logging and what to do with this pirate.

[PotatoOverdose]

Why? That's not my point at all. My point is that I don't derive my moral compass, my sense of decency, based on what a game designer says is technically permitted in-game.

Fact of the matter is that combat logging is viewed as an undesirable exploit, is technically supported, and is not something FD is actively actioning currently, per their own forum posts. Station murder/griefing, however, has been ratcheted down SUBSTANTIALLY lately with dumbfire nerfs and other tweaks, that make it very difficult to get away with murder in stations now, save for ramming. If that isn't an obvious sign that blowing people up en masse while they trying to land wasn't an intended design feature, I don't know what is. FD have TALKED about combat logging, but they've ACTIONED station griefing. Actions > words.

An undesirable mechanic (e.g. dumbfires) is not an exploit. Adjusting an undesirable mechanic (e.g. the dumbfire nerf) is not evidence of an exploit.

Your moral compass is irrelevant. We all agree to play by a particular ruleset when we play open. Your moral compass does not give you the right to use exploits on a whim. Anyone that exploits should be banned, regardless of their "moral compass." Otherwise the Terms of Service and the EULA mean nothing.

 

[Loetmichel]

Originally Posted by jarinalepetiot
Ultimate patch to avoid combat logging. At start your career, like you choose a location/option (if available) you must choice between 1 of 3 modes. After you CAN'T Change (or only 1 time per 12 months). And all mode are stand alone (not same commander/cash/ship). To set up this system now : a simply patch when you login.

All that does is prevent traders switching to solo. If anything that will ENCOURAGE combat logging.

No, all that this will do is that most of the "normal" People left in open will switch to solo permanently. I know i would when presented with the option to choose one of the three modes for the next year. And i have been playing in open for most
of the time since beta. Excluding some brief switches to solo for circumventing the "outpost pafs full" problem sometimes.

To the OP: i wouldnt combat log, i would simply log out. 15 secs in a T6 with approbiate shiuelds should be doable withour getting killed by a clipper.

 

[Lord Tareq]

I kind of agree with the OP, not the combat logging part, but the part about there needing to be lasting consequences for players murdering/robbing other players. The current "Hmm I murdered 12 people today and stole 500.000$ worth of cargo. Time to pay my 500$ fine and start with a clean sheet..."-mechanic is just poor.

 

[SiriusSeven]

Why? That's not my point at all. My point is that I don't derive my moral compass, my sense of decency, based on what a game designer says is technically permitted in-game.

Fact of the matter is that combat logging is viewed as an undesirable exploit, is technically supported, and is not something FD is actively actioning currently, per their own forum posts. Station murder/griefing, however, has been ratcheted down SUBSTANTIALLY lately with dumbfire nerfs and other tweaks, that make it very difficult to get away with murder in stations now, save for ramming. If that isn't an obvious sign that blowing people up en masse while they trying to land wasn't an intended design feature, I don't know what is. FD have TALKED about combat logging, but they've ACTIONED station griefing. Actions > words.

Taking action against combat loggers is more challenging than nerfing some missiles (for purely technical reasons). That they have not fixed combat logging yet should not be taken as a signal of its severity. The pinned post should be taken as a placeholder for some future action (if action is possible). The post itself warns asmuch, cautioning players against the practice, lest they be punished when they work out how to do so.

 

[KellyR]

I've read the post. I sympathize with the OP. But,

Let's pretend that the bounty thing is an exploit and not just a hopelessly unbalanced mechanic (wishful thinking?)

What we're left with is 2 people exploiting the game in Open instead of 1.

I can't support this.

What about this? I could say "I can't support the state killing cold blooded murderers in the electric chair, by lethal injection, gas chamber, whatever. They are still murdering the criminal. Two wrongs don't make a right." But in the scenario I posed, 2 wrong do make a justice.

 

[PotatoOverdose]

What about this? I could say "I can't support the state killing cold blooded murderers in the electric chair, by lethal injection, gas chamber, whatever. They are still murdering the criminal. Two wrongs don't make a right." But in the scenario I posed, 2 wrong do make a justice.

Vengeance doesn't equal justice.

 

[Sandmann]

An undesirable mechanic (e.g. dumbfires) is not an exploit. Adjusting an undesirable mechanic (e.g. the dumbfire nerf) is not evidence of an exploit.

Your moral compass is irrelevant. We all agree to play by a particular ruleset when we play open. Your moral compass does not give you the right to use exploits on a whim. Anyone that exploits should be banned, regardless of their "moral compass." Otherwise the Terms of Service and the EULA mean nothing.

At first I was tempted to agree with this but after I thought about it I changed my mind. Why? Because the ultimate upshot of it is that there is no such thing as griefing as it's only possible to do what the mechanics allow, and that's wrong. Why is it wrong? Because it comes from the false assumption that anything the game permits is intended and desirable; it assumes "perfect code by perfect devs". A moral compass shows us when a mechanic is being misused in a way not intended or anticipated by the devs... eg: dumbfire eagles. If they had anticipated or intended it they wouldn't have nerfed it, and it was quite obviously against the spirit of the game. However, for use of exploits I do agree that users should be banned in accordance with the EULA.

No, all that this will do is that most of the "normal" People left in open will switch to solo permanently. I know i would when presented with the option to choose one of the three modes for the next year. And i have been playing in open for most
of the time since beta. Excluding some brief switches to solo for circumventing the "outpost pafs full" problem sometimes.

Yah I was referring to any traders left in open. If I was told to make a choice for the next 12 months I, like yourself, wouldn't be choosing open.

 

[Darkium]

and how would legit bh feel about that ?

Smaller bounty, but you would actually be able to hunt pirates. If it takes 10 succesful hunt on a pirate before is name is clear, then bounty can be hunted 10 time more!

So If my friend wants to shoot my ship, he should be banned? I don't think you've thought this one through mate.

Do you know the deffinition of swapping? It's only swapping if you are not fighting back.

 

[SiriusSeven]

What about this? I could say "I can't support the state killing cold blooded murderers in the electric chair, by lethal injection, gas chamber, whatever. They are still murdering the criminal. Two wrongs don't make a right." But in the scenario I posed, 2 wrong do make a justice.

Well, have you considered that I don't support capital punishment, and neither does the democratic majority of the country I live in?

there is no inconsistency in my statements

ok back on topic

 

[PotatoOverdose]

Do you know the deffinition of swapping? It's only swapping if you are not fighting back.

So as long as it's an honest fight to the death, me and my friend can repeatedly duel each other in sidewinders until we've both claimed each other's bounty?

Doesn't sound all that different from what we have now, but okay I guess....

 

[SiriusSeven]

So as long as it's an honest fight to the death, me and my friend can repeatedly duel each other in sidewinders until we've both claimed each other's bounty?

Doesn't sound all that different from what we have now, but okay I guess....

hah, that sounds fun!

same effect, just less boring

 

[Sandmann]

So as long as it's an honest fight to the death, me and my friend can repeatedly duel each other in sidewinders until we've both claimed each other's bounty?

Doesn't sound all that different from what we have now, but okay I guess....

Which is why I liked the idea of giving the resurected pirate a debt equal to his collected bounty. If the PIRATE pays his own bounty, it stops bounty swapping.

 

[Aussiedroid]

I don't think we have Bounty Hunting as such, but rather Bounty Farming anyways. As pointed out we cannot hunt players and find out where they are or what character they are, have they been wanted or done bad things in the past, are they Fed, Empire, Alliance or Independent .. how do we tell? How do we actually hunt, other than chasing them via wake scanners after the fact that we have found or fought them? Just pay your fines and you are sorted, like it never happened. No point really to role play as a BH in current state unless you want to mix that up in a pirate role and just kill whatever you want.

Even in the older Elite games there was a 'wrap sheet' of all the bad/illegal things a player has done. This needs to return, and be able to be investigated by players.

I know FD stance on Combat Logging, but as far as I am concerned its a valid option (and I don't blame the OP for doing it considering the circumstances) despite being against the 'nature' of the game. It is part of the game design, it is not hacking the game or anything. Its more valid in my books than using Trading tools to cheat your way into quick profits IMO. So if FD really want to say this is against EULA or whatever reason they deem acceptable to clamp down on this, then they need to take action now and block it completely via the design or start banning players who use it.

 

[Sim Maker]

I don't think we have Bounty Hunting as such, but rather Bounty Farming anyways. As pointed out we cannot hunt players and find out where they are or what character they are, have they been wanted or done bad things in the past, are they Fed, Empire, Alliance or Independent .. how do we tell? How do we actually hunt, other than chasing them via wake scanners after the fact that we have found or fought them? Just pay your fines and you are sorted, like it never happened. No point really to role play as a BH in current state unless you want to mix that up in a pirate role and just kill whatever you want.

Even in the older Elite games there was a 'wrap sheet' of all the bad/illegal things a player has done. This needs to return, and be able to be investigated by players.

I know FD stance on Combat Logging, but as far as I am concerned its a valid option (and I don't blame the OP for doing it considering the circumstances) despite being against the 'nature' of the game. It is part of the game design, it is not hacking the game or anything. Its more valid in my books than using Trading tools to cheat your way into quick profits IMO. So if FD really want to say this is against EULA or whatever reason they deem acceptable to clamp down on this, then they need to take action now and block it completely via the design or start banning players who use it.

That is a good point, not seen it put quite like that.....
.
What is the point of having Bounty Hunters.....if the Criminals can just walk in to a Police Station and pay off their fines?...................blimey, that kind of puts it in to sharp relife.........

 

[NewYears1978]

In my opinion, the perfect thing to do here is to implement a better criminal system, sort of like Ultima Online had.

Anyone here play in those days? Here is how it worked:

You had three Status Flags for players, which was Blue (Innocent), Gray (Flagged for a criminal activity) and Red (Murderers).
The system worked where no player could attack a blue player without consequences. If you attacked a Blue player, you got a temporary (time limited) Gray status. While Gray, you are "criminal flagged" and anyone can attack you. The gray would eventually wear off (in case you did this by accident, etc) however if you killed the player you attacked you then got a "murder count" against you. After 5 murder counts, you became Red.

Once red you were now a (semi) permanent criminal. You could no longer go to towns that had guards thus you were penalized by being limited to criminal based towns so you could shop and bank items. Anyone could attack you at any time also since you were red, however you could defend yourself without getting more murder counts.

Each murder count had a time limit stamp on it which if I recall was 8 hours of game time. So, if you murdered 5 people and then waited 8 hours one would drop off and you would be blue again, however if you killed 10 people and had 10 counts you are now going to be red for 8 hours per count til you hit four again (48 hours). So lifetime criminals have to CHOOSE this life and once they do they cannot easily just go back and forth like you can in ED by simply paying off the bounty.

Some system like this could work and work very well in ED.

It is dumb that I can go out and kill 5 people then pay a bounty and am "Clean" again.

 

[SiriusSeven]

^ Yup. UO for the win. They pioneered a lot of great stuff (e.g level-less progression, proper professions and player economy, in-game player owned properties and businesses, etc.)

 

[Putok]

I get what you're saying OP. The bounty mechanic does not function well.

The bounty for murder of another player is comically low. It should be at least 100 times larger than it is, if not 1000 times larger. 300k creds + insurance and cargo value of destroyed ship might be a good starting point, so as to scale bounty based on the magnitude of property damage done.

 

[Distance]

In my opinion, the perfect thing to do here is to implement a better criminal system, sort of like Ultima Online had.

Spoiler

Anyone here play in those days? Here is how it worked:

You had three Status Flags for players, which was Blue (Innocent), Gray (Flagged for a criminal activity) and Red (Murderers).
The system worked where no player could attack a blue player without consequences. If you attacked a Blue player, you got a temporary (time limited) Gray status. While Gray, you are "criminal flagged" and anyone can attack you. The gray would eventually wear off (in case you did this by accident, etc) however if you killed the player you attacked you then got a "murder count" against you. After 5 murder counts, you became Red.

Once red you were now a (semi) permanent criminal. You could no longer go to towns that had guards thus you were penalized by being limited to criminal based towns so you could shop and bank items. Anyone could attack you at any time also since you were red, however you could defend yourself without getting more murder counts.

Each murder count had a time limit stamp on it which if I recall was 8 hours of game time. So, if you murdered 5 people and then waited 8 hours one would drop off and you would be blue again, however if you killed 10 people and had 10 counts you are now going to be red for 8 hours per count til you hit four again (48 hours). So lifetime criminals have to CHOOSE this life and once they do they cannot easily just go back and forth like you can in ED by simply paying off the bounty.

Some system like this could work and work very well in ED.

It is dumb that I can go out and kill 5 people then pay a bounty and am "Clean" again.

This sounds so much better already. Why do game companies keep trying to reinvent the wheel?

 

[NewYears1978]

This sounds so much better already. Why do game companies keep trying to reinvent the wheel?

It's not even that complicated either. Sitting at a table discussing how to handle Pirates...and they come up with "Let's just let them fly into a station and pay off their crimes" was the BEST idea? That is sad. It holds true to the original I guess but in 2015, online, it doesn't work.

 

[Distance]

It's not even that complicated either. Sitting at a table discussing how to handle Pirates...and they come up with "Let's just let them fly into a station and pay off their crimes" was the BEST idea? That is sad. It holds true to the original I guess but in 2015, online, it doesn't work.

The main problem is now we have all these good suggestions buried in an inflammatory thread lol.