Turret accuracy / targeting

[soma]

Okay after some more testing I am not sure if the current turret mechanic is a curse or a blessing in disguise. Remember how the turrets are REALLY accurate, the first few seconds they shoot a target? All my turrets are mounted on TOP of my Python. If my crosshair moves above the enemy, the target is out of the firing arc and the turrets stop. If I move the crosshair back down, the turrets continue firing and the accuracy is again very good.

I have managed to keep turret accuracy near pinpoint perfect by simply moving my crosshair slightly above the target every few seconds (not a problem against big, slow vessles .. and lets you keep your favorite subsystem targeted) or by re-targeting the opponent every few seconds (good against more nimble craft).

I am not saying the mechanic is fine the way it is right now, but currently turrets work really well if you know how to (ab)use them


Edit: oops, FalconFly already mentioned that technique in his original post.. well it works, even with a Python

 

[SHADEVARI]

The issue with that technique is that if you are able to do that moving up and down all the time with enough precision... you could just have used fixed or qimballed weapons. ;-)

Would some mod please be so kind and move, copy or link this thread into "Dangerous Discussion" so it will not just end or be forgotten when then 1.2 sub-forum is closed?

 

[soma]

The effect lasts long enough to keep pounding the Powerplant of an Anaconda while it is out of sight when you turn / maneuver. And as I said, against quicker targets you can simply unlock / relock your target to keep hitting them when they are out of sight.

Edit: Oh and could it be that turrets handle Chaff better than gimbals? At least it feels like Chaff has less effect.

But yeah turret mechanic is broken in some way. I just dont think they currently are completely useless

 

[grae3107]

During Beta (pre-release beta) a dev posted that turrets in internal testing were extremely deadly as accuracy and tracking speed was way too good. They adjusted this and that is what made it into release. They are pretty useless IMO. Tracking speed is not the issue but the accuracy. At worst they should have the accuracy of a gimbal.

 

[SHADEVARI]

With my Anaconda I always kind of imagine me to be more like a crocodile when using 2 turrets on top, 2 on bottom and 2 in front quickly turning around myself all the time with my prey to constantly refresh the targeting from top<->bottom and left<->right. ;-) This kind of target refresh can only be considered to be a workaround for a broken game mechanic. :-(

 

[Hiten Bongz]

I dont know man, I dont have much experience using turrets myself but I have had a huge share of CMDRS with Large size laser turrets kitted into their Clippers as of late, and I can tell you, these not only do not seem to miss much but they are a killer. Cost is 20 mill though, nevertheless me thinks they need tone down actually.

You wouldn't say that if you've actually used turrets. Yes they may be OP for the first 1-2 seconds of engagement. After that, they are 90% useless due to the sway. The only way they are "functional" is by abusing the mechanic, but that does not warrant a nerf. It warrants a balance pass to make them useful in normal circumstances!

There is the chaff dispenser hard-point, that makes turret/gimballed weapons loose lock and wander for a short while. If your opponent fires of a chaff round you have to wait till the effects wear off before the targeting works again. In the meantime, the aim wanders about quite a lot.

Edit: Oh and could it be that turrets handle Chaff better than gimbals? At least it feels like Chaff has less effect.

Chaff doesn't affect turrets, only gimballed weapons.

 

[SHADEVARI]

Just tested the Anaconda with turrets and 8A sensors but sadly there was NO noticeably difference in targeting accuracy compared to 8D sensors. So it seems that the class does matter since turrets are totally aimless on anything less than class 8 sensors and only almost aimless (pun intended) with class 8 sensors.

 

[Deleted member 38366]

-- Deleted --

 

[Lokus Midgard]

During Beta (pre-release beta) a dev posted that turrets in internal testing were extremely deadly as accuracy and tracking speed was way too good. They adjusted this and that is what made it into release. They are pretty useless IMO. Tracking speed is not the issue but the accuracy. At worst they should have the accuracy of a gimbal.

Turrets should be highly accurate, unless jammed or spoofed. Look up videos of CIWS, like the Phalanx. The've got things like that to successfully shoot down individual morter rounds. A futuristic version is going to have few problems with a ship of the sizes we're used to. Even Sidewinders are large vehicles!

if anything, it's difficult to understand why fixed weapons are available. If this is meant to be an accurate depiction of scientific reality, just about all weapons would be auto-aimed. In real-life, that's pretty much how it is for actual naval warfare.

So, no reason for turrets to be artificially handicapped. As was pointed out, they don't seem to be when NPCs use them. Just empower ways to jam/spoof tracking systems - or include 'stealth hulls' as a new armour option. If this were a naval warfare simulator, CIWS wouldn't be nerfed - we'd look at how real navies successfully counter such technologies.

 

[Hiten Bongz]

IMHO a good solution for Turrets would be :

- remove the 'accuracy decay over time' factor entirely
- instead dynamically adjust their accuracy according to other factors : Sensors fitted, Target Heat Signature & Distance, Silent Running or Chaff deployed

<snip>

As Turrets act completely autonomous when engaging, I'd sure like to see them act alot smarter in the future.

i.e. :

- Laser and definitely Projectile Turrets limiting their firing output when the Target is clearly well outside their optimum effective Range (preserve Capacitor Energy/Ammo for when a better firing solution is achieved)
- Cannon Turrets shouldn't fire at max. rate onto small Targets at long range (try it, they're not hitting anything while depleting their limited Ammo supply)
- especially Frag Cannon Turrets should really act like the CIWS they really are... No Point in them firing Clip after Clip onto a 1km distant small target (Ammo will be empty in virtually no time to no effect)

Turrets shall not engage without a Weapon-specific CAV (Clear Avenue of Fire)
i.e. those Systems shouldn't fire or temorarily hold fire when Neutrals/Friendlies/Allies are within a certain degrees of their aim
- Lasers : ~1 degree
- MultiCannons : ~3 degrees
- Cannons : ~5 degrees (due to TOF Time of Flight of the projectiles)
- Frag Cannons : ~10 degrees (due to TOF and their large spread)

I like these suggestions a lot ^ and honestly, turret accuracy should be tied to sensors; it would give people a better incentive to run something other than D-sensors.

 

[Lokus Midgard]

Same. Those suggestions would go a long way to adding realism. There also needs to be a tab on the left or right computer which is dedicated to weapons management, precisely so that we can dictate 'engagement parameters', such as how many ballistic rounds are used at certain distances and so on.

Those of us who remember the wonderful flight simulator, 'EF-2000' and the various Janes titles, will remember weapons management being highly useful. Most beginners wouldn't need it, but if you want to have expanded control, then it's there. You could set fuses to be air-burst or penetration, as well as being able to set missiles to ripple-fire and so on. Likewise, for ballistic weapons, being able to buy different types of ammunition would be hugely desirable (incendiary, AP, HE, HEAP, etcetera) - and if you purchase more than one type (at the expense of volume, until we can purchase internal 'munitions storage modules'), weapons management would allow you to dictate if you want only one type to fire or a mixture. It would make battles a lot more interesting... Beginners would just want to get generic ammunition, but as you gain expertise, you'll want to tailor your weapons load-out and 'engagement envelopes' much more closely to your intended targets for efficiency. Different types of ammunition could have different costs and some could be designed to simply disable systems instead of destroy.

While the product is meant to be 'played' a flight sim, it's important to rememebr that the actual mechanics of what's going on with your ship should be approached like those of a submarine.

 

[NeilF]

Biggest problem i had (in a T9) with turrets, is getting them to fire on a wanted ship (target only pulling trigger doesn't work, you have to forward fire, hit, then target only), and getting them to stop when you want.
The latter being a problem when 100% heat starts costing money (ie causing module dmg)...

I know the T9 doesn't get into a lot of fights, but i was playing with beta ;-)

I have exactly the same issue! I was hoping if they were set to "current target" and you pressed the appropriate fire button, they would fire... But nope! You need to set "fire forwards", open fire, and then faff about while under return fire, returning them back to "fire at will", or "current target"...

 

[SHADEVARI]

I like these suggestions a lot ^ and honestly, turret accuracy should be tied to sensors; it would give people a better incentive to run something other than D-sensors.

Yes, after my tests I went back from 8A to 8D since they have no benefit for turrets, you only see targets on your sensor from further out because of its increased range... but at the terrible price of 2,07 MW power drain compared to only 0,64 with D rating.

 

[NeilF]

Hi, I post this in 1.2 in the hope that some work went into turrets as well, the following was tested with 1.1, but maybe someone can test and confirm with 1.2.

Since I still think the Python was nerfed a little bit too much, either its speed and agility OR its shield strength, I tested the Python against some NPC ships of all sizes using 2x C3 burst turret (top) and 1x C3 beam turret (bottom) together with 2x C2 rail gun for alpha strike and A rated sensors. The rail guns performed just fine, the turrets however... :-(

After the first 3-4 seconds of constantly hitting the target spot on they start to wander around the target, not hitting it at all. I managed to keep the turrets on target and watched the turrets dancing around for around 30 seconds, I then moved the ship and switched to the bottom turret which instantly hit the target for about 3-4 seconds, after that just dancing around. When moving back to the top turrets I got some 3-4 seconds of damage again, after that, yeah, you guessed it, dancing... and no, the other ships weren't using chaff.

THe worst thing about this is that the smaller your target is the more damage is lost due to the turrets dancing around, making them essentially useless against small ships. Ironically small and fast ships are the only reason to equip turrets at all, but if turrets are only able to hit them for 3-4 seconds and are useless the remaining time while I still try and move the Python (or Anaconda or whatever is slow) around to get them back in my sight for another weapon, fixed or gimballed, there is no point for their existence, at all. The small ship happily eats away at the shields or hull during that time.

Fixing the turrets with the release of two more very powerful, fast and agile ships is now more important than ever for the slower ships, especially Anaconda and Python. I do not mention the Type X ships because the best strategy for them is to just not have weapons at all and simply run.


TL;DR
Turret targeting is completely broken and needs fixing ASAP since turrets are currently useless, especially against smaller ships, which is the only reason for their existence. This is especially important now with two more powerful and agile ships.

You would expect the more relative you can keep the target to your ship, the more accurate the turret? ie: If you can keep the enemy "still" so the turrent does not have to move, the targeting should be more accurate. The less you achieve this, the worse the aim.

 

[Mike Evans]

Just so you guys are aware:

Sensors do not affect turret behaviour in any way other than being used to resolve the contact in the first place so they can be tracked.

The turrets do not have a time based decay in performance. What you're seeing is the target's evasive manoeuvre effecting your turret tracking. The mechanic is that the faster the target is moving perpendicular to the turret the harder it is for them to track it. This "confusion factor" builds up a little bit and can cause the turrets to miss. Once the target stops moving so much in the field of view of the turret the more accurate it'll become.

 

[SHADEVARI]

You would expect the more relative you can keep the target to your ship, the more accurate the turret? ie: If you can keep the enemy "still" so the turrent does not have to move, the targeting should be more accurate. The less you achieve this, the worse the aim.

Yes, that is what I would expect, among a lot of other things. ;-)

However I noticed several funny flight behaviors of NPC ships. When I fly the Anaconda with turrets and attack a Cobra I throttle down until I stop and just let the turrets fire away. The Cobra is usually confused by this and stays within 500m of the Anaconda while I keep firing and turning around myself. They die pretty fast...

Unrelated but also funny... when flying the Python and fighting an Asp I noticed that they like to come VERY close and stay close up to the point of hitting you (not ramming), when doing hard damage to them they try to get some distance just to attack from the front and get close again. Sidewinders and Eagles are usually dead before they can do anything, Viper + Cobra try to out-turn you more or less successfully, Asp tries to cuddle you to death, Clippers actually tries to do some fancy but useless flying and most Anacondas pull the crocodile, twisting and turning, but without much success. ;-)

 

[SHADEVARI]

Sensors do not affect turret behaviour in any way other than being used to resolve the contact in the first place so they can be tracked.

Thank you for clarification.

The turrets do not have a time based decay in performance. What you're seeing is the target's evasive manoeuvre effecting your turret tracking. The mechanic is that the faster the target is moving perpendicular to the turret the harder it is for them to track it.

Does this also explain why turrets are worse on the Python compared to the Anaconda when flying in the blue zone since the Python is faster and more agile and thus might have a larger speed difference in relation to the target? This would mean that the results would be the same with the ship stopped and best when matching the targets speed and movements?

This "confusion factor" builds up a little bit and can cause the turrets to miss. Once the target stops moving so much in the field of view of the turret the more accurate it'll become.

Could it be that the "confusion factor" gets too large at some point? I have seen the turrets not being able to hit a fast moving target at all for longer periods of time*, except for split second scratching when using beams.

* 2x C3 burst turrets on top of Python, target Cobra in shooting range and visible at all times, turrets firing all the time but next to no damage, after 30 seconds or so I turned around to re-lock the target, dropped its shields and shot it down with my other weapons.


Edit:
I understand and it makes sense that there is a confusion factor, however the point of having turrets to to be able to hit fast and agile ships with large and slow ships since I can not effectively use fixed or gimballed on slow ships. However if the turrets get useless at hitting those small and agile ships and are only effective against large and slow ships... why use turrets at all? To me this kind of takes away the purpose of turrets.

 

[NeilF]

Just so you guys are aware:

Sensors do not affect turret behaviour in any way other than being used to resolve the contact in the first place so they can be tracked.

The turrets do not have a time based decay in performance. What you're seeing is the target's evasive manoeuvre effecting your turret tracking. The mechanic is that the faster the target is moving perpendicular to the turret the harder it is for them to track it. This "confusion factor" builds up a little bit and can cause the turrets to miss. Once the target stops moving so much in the field of view of the turret the more accurate it'll become.

That sounds logical...


On a side note, it is possible to initiate turret firing manually somehow? When I'm interdicted, and I see the "enemy" is "wanted" I want to get the first strike in, but there's no way to do this currently. Ideally if I pressed (held) the assigned fire button for the turrets, I'd like an "initiating turret fire at current target" message with a countdown (eg: from 3 <- during which time I'd have to keep the fire button down) and then they'd open fire on my current target.

At least that would give me a means of starting the turrets firing (on my desired target) without having to (needlessly) flick around turrent modes in the heat of battle.

 

[Deleted member 38366]

-- Deleted --

 

[SHADEVARI]

After this experiment, I labelled the Turrets "Useless Space Heaters" - because effectively that's the only thing they did. Heat up space all around the Target

Actually, they don't. Empty space can not be heated, you need something to interact with, an atmosphere or a target ship.

But on that matter I was always wondering why the target isn't overheating if I shoot some large beams at it. Lasers do direct damage + should be doing indirect heat damage, heating up the target ships hull and/or modules.