The problem is not the Vulture and FDL's prices (long)

[Alexander the Grape]

The problem is incomes.

The Vulture and FDL were balanced around trader's incomes, despite being combat ships.

However, for those of us who don't trade, the vast disparity between trading and literally every other profession in the game is so huge that I'm starting to feel like Frontier wants to force everyone to trade: and that's just bad design in a game that's supposed to be a sandbox.

Trading does need to be a profitable profession. It provides prey for pirates, which in turn supports bounty hunters, so having more traders is never a bad thing. It is also a relatively "easy" profession, in that the danger is low.

However the income disparity is astounding. Check out https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...B4VPVVLIDJ92rrp9Rr00dxHC7Zo/edit#gid=54143565

A trader can reasonably expect to buy a new ship every few hours. Once more, when those ships are bought, the income will rise proportionally.

A bounty hunter can expect to go Sidewinder->Eagle->Viper relatively quickly. This feels good. The feedback loop is in place. The skinner box is tickling your dopamine centres.

But after that, the progression stalls. The next combat ship, the Vulture, costs 22 million.

22 million.

That's over a thousand wanted asps at a nav beacon.

Over a thousand warzone anacondas

Over ten thousand warzone eagles.

Lets assume you're Jimmy McHardcore, and all you do is sit at warzones, all day every day. Lets say you kill other vipers at 5,000 a pop. Lets assume you fly perfectly, 4 pips in weapons, using thermal weapons constantly, and that you take no damage, never have to leave and never die. Assume there's always Vipers to kill and they stay constantly in range, taking about 2 minutes to kill each one. To afford an eagle and basic outfitting would take...

Over 160 hours.

Lets put that in perspective.

If you play, say 10 hours a week of Elite (a reasonably hardcore player), then that's 16 weeks, or over 3 months.

3 months.

Let that sink in.

Now let's say Jimmy McHardcore slips up one day in his new Vulture. Luckily, he has insurance, and it will only cost him over 1 million credits.

That's another 5 hours of Viper popping. Back in his Viper as well, unless he has been able to build up a buffer of double the insurance.

Let's hope you didn't have any plans for the weekend Jimmy!

AND, in your brand shiny new vulture, you want to look up to the dizzying heights of the FDL?

Assume your Viper TTK halves to one minute. His income's doubled!!

It still takes him 260 hours, or 26 weeks, or half a damn year to afford the ship he wants.

This isn't about casual vs hardcore. This isn't about dedication or roleplay. This is about pure and simple gameplay imbalance.

Frontier, not everyone wants to trade. That doesn't mean we don't deserve content.

/drops mic

EDIT So it looks like this very issue is going to be addressed (according to the latest Dev Update). Thanks for listening to the community Frontier! (or independently coming to that conclusion by yourself)

 

[Anuranium]

If I screw up/crash/make an expensive mistake, I don't mind doing a little trading to get the ship/outfitting that I want.
Most important thing, in my opinion, is to have fun in the game. If you think you're going to have fun in a Vulture, sure, you have to do something else than playing as Mchardcore killing vipers in combat zones... Do something else; explore, trade with your buddies/meet up with new people. Do assasination missions...

When I do trading, I like to see how fast I can possible get from one place to another... even though it might be risky, it's fun - to me. Getting there just ONE second faster scraping my hull towards the mailslot and crushing the NPC sidewinder on his way out violently gives me the kicks... And when it don't, I go shoot something up.

Please, TRY to have fun with the game as it is. Or I could just drop back to: Maybe this isn't the game for you.

 

[CMDR Sheehy]

The Fer De Lance was always going to a rich players combat ship. It's taken me since Gamma to afford a well equipped Cobra. And now it's 'All I've ever wanted' in a ship so far. Seeing that I now never make a loss no matter what I do, one day I may be able to afford a different ship, but for now, I can handle everything that the Dangerous Universe throws at me.

If you want to have those new ships, then you have to set that goal for yourself and go for it. Six months of playing time is far more game time than Tomb Raider will ever give you. Enjoy the ride.

 

[Pyrion]

The OP has a valid point and i totally understand where he is coming from. But that problem is not easy to remedy, bear with me.
Why do traders trade? It can be a bit of fun, but mostly we trade to get to the goodies faster. So what happens if you can get the goodies as fast (or almost) while fighting? Trading would be obsolete, the few remaining traders would all play solo because most of the player base would fly combat ships looking for trouble, making trading in open masochistic. That said, i think we can afford a bit more combat income since the gap is still very wide. But the gap has to stay wide enough.

 

[Whiterose]

Whilts I agree in concept with what you are saying, your data is skewed to prove your point. I have a Clipper and certainly dont make 3.4M per hour. You have taken "ideal" trades against "average" Bounty prices. You are also assuming that everyone want an FDL or Vulture, not the case. The gameplay is only imbalanced if you want it to be. If you are happy in your Viper claiming bounties then stay in your Viper. Its not about owning the biggest ship, its about having fun.

 

[Red Kite]

Some good points, I like the calculations!

There are, of course, plenty of people out there with huge bank balances who will be able to afford both ships immediately and stash them away for playtime. Personally I don't grind for cash, I never have. I play for fun so I don't make much money and I tend to sink it into upgrades.

I have a Cobra and a T6 and 5mCr since gamma. I bounty-hunt or do BB missions mostly, neither of which earn much. I like the community goals, hope we get some more interesting ones. Occasionally I do some trade runs, usually with rares. As long as I have enough for insurance and running costs I'm happy.

I enjoyed playing around with the Vulture and FDL in Beta, but I won't be buying either at their present prices. It's certainly true that the "trade-grinders" have the cash for these ships, but it's the combat specialists who need them!

I don't have any "future plans", since that's not the nature of the game. Maybe an Asp, eventually a T7. I like to mine, but I've given it up for now as I have no decent lodes near me and it's just too slow, hope it gets some improvement in 1.3!

When I see an FDL I'll give it a wave from my own little corner of the sandbox!

 

[Alexander the Grape]

If I screw up/crash/make an expensive mistake, I don't mind doing a little trading to get the ship/outfitting that I want.
Most important thing, in my opinion, is to have fun in the game. If you think you're going to have fun in a Vulture, sure, you have to do something else than playing as Mchardcore killing vipers in combat zones... Do something else; explore, trade with your buddies/meet up with new people. Do assasination missions...

When I do trading, I like to see how fast I can possible get from one place to another... even though it might be risky, it's fun - to me. Getting there just ONE second faster scraping my hull towards the mailslot and crushing the NPC sidewinder on his way out violently gives me the kicks... And when it don't, I go shoot something up.

Please, TRY to have fun with the game as it is. Or I could just drop back to: Maybe this isn't the game for you.

I do have fun! It's just incredibly frustrating how content is locked off to non traders. It's exactly against Braben's vision that no one role should be the absolutely supreme cash cow that everyone has to do to afford, well, anything bigger than a Cobra

 

[SpartanBeef]

Am I the only one who thinks that this isn't a problem? As a (mostly)bounty hunter I don't really see the issues with bounty hunting/combat for two main reasons. 1. more expensive != more fun. its that simple. But I've seen that argument used a lot before and I've used it myself quite a lot, so lets try something new. The disparity between trading and combat isn't a massive disparity in earnings, its a disparity in how the money is earned.


Lets look at an example. Say you have a trader, trading a milk run for 1 million Cr per hour. He keeps on trading, occasionally he might be interdicted and receive some damage, very occasionally he might be destroyed, but his earnings are around 1 million per hour.

This gives the trader average earnings of 16666 Cr per minute.

Now lets look at a bounty hunter. The bounty hunter hangs out at Nav points and RES, maybe does some of the assassination missions to mix things up a bit. And he goes a long time without making anything at all. But then he finds a stretch of good bounties, and he makes 100000 Cr in two minutes. That's certainly possible, I've done it before, in a slightly modified freagle(1 multicannon) He's still a fair bit behind the trader, but you can go better than that. Throw in some smuggling of goods found at USS and maybe some exploring and profits of 200000 every ten to twenty mins are possible. That's 600000 an hour on average, but that average is made up out of long periods of nothing punctuated by massive bursts of earning.

so, 100000 per hour for a min maxed trade run in a large ship, VS 60000 an hour in a fairly low cost, low maintenance fighter. That's not a huge difference, is it?
More importantly, the bounty hunter is hopefully having fun and enjoying the combat, while the trader(judging from the "its too grindy" forum posts that you see every day) probably isn't.

That's why I, as a bounty hunter don't think its too much of a problem. You'd expect a dedicated trader to make more than a bounty hunter anyway. And you can also combine the two via trading small amounts of high value goods(basically rares) and bounty hunting along the way. There's lots of ways to "Blaze your own trail" in elite, and trading is absolutely not the only one. I'm not saying I wouldn't be happy to see some mid range combat ships to give players something more attainable than the FDL to strive for, but combat isn't that far behind trading IMO.

See you in the black.

 

[Anuranium]

I do have fun! It's just incredibly frustrating how content is locked off to non traders. It's exactly against Braben's vision that no one role should be the absolutely supreme cash cow that everyone has to do to afford, well, anything bigger than a Cobra

Very well, what are your suggestions? Beefing up bounty rewards? Lowering ship costs so close to everyone flies around in an Anaconda or FDL?
Please, I'm all ears.

 

[LawHunter]

The real and only problem is that combat and trading are seperate entities.

You trade or you fight.

The previous Elite games combined the two. The player had to fight their way to the next station to deliver cargo, collecting bounties as they do.

Simple isn't it. Why the very core of Elite changed for this sequel I don't know.

Traders should be armed up and have to defend themselves and earn their profits.

In my Type 7 the best profit I got per hour was 3.8 Million. Didn't need weapons, only got interdicted once and escaped.
As soon as I had enough money for what I wanted I sold it because trading is so boring because of this very reason.

Trading should be the most dangerous profesion, not the other way round.

 

[Calico Jack]

Totally agree that combat income, and income from piracy against NPCs, should scale better. The Elite slogan is 'Play Your Way', but that should probably carry a disclaimer that you won't get very far without trading.

Anyway, back to my Type 9, there's a Fer De Lance with my name on it!

 

[The Law]

Yeah, if I wanted to buy FDL solely from exploring profits (since that is mostly all I ever do in Elite) solely for the designs (not because it is potentially good exploration ship), I would probably be able to afford it sometime next year. I like long term goals, but this is ridiculous.

I honestly feel FDL should sit somewhere between Cobra and Clipper.

 

[flibblesan]

‏@DavidBraben: Very pleased with #EliteDangerous Wings. I hear the Fed Navy agrees with those lobbying for lower prices of the FdL so…

Good news!

 

[Fian]

Totally agree with OP, repped.

 

[Cmdr Pli55ken]

However, for those of us who don't trade, the vast disparity between trading and literally every other profession in the game is so huge that I'm starting to feel like Frontier wants to force everyone to trade: and that's just bad design in a game that's supposed to be a sandbox.

While a bit better earning capabilities for the other professions would not be amiss I don't think they should be on an equal footing. Because then non one would trade (which in turn would kill the pirate profession)

But after that, the progression stalls. The next combat ship, the Vulture, costs 22 million.

You forgot the Asp, which can be a very good combat ship. It is classified as an 'all rounder' but it is a definite step up in combat capability from the Viper.

It still takes him 260 hours, or 26 weeks, or half a damn year to afford the ship he wants.

That should tell you something about the game design right there: Elite isn't designed to be a pure pew-pew game. You can choose to play it as such, but it's more rewarding (in every sense of the word) to try everything it offers.

Am I the only one who thinks that this isn't a problem? As a (mostly)bounty hunter I don't really see the issues with bounty hunting/combat for two main reasons. 1. more expensive != more fun.

I totally agree. Since the game does not have a 'progression tree' as such I find it weird that people treat it as if it does.

 

[lolanon]

It's the same thing.

 

[DarthVain]

I'm far from getting any new ship beyond my Cobra although maxed out I'd like to get my hands on a Python. Ship prices are way too high IMHO.

 

[StuartGT]

The real and only problem is that combat and trading are seperate entities.

You trade or you fight.

The previous Elite games combined the two. The player had to fight their way to the next station to deliver cargo, collecting bounties as they do.

Simple isn't it. Why the very core of Elite changed for this sequel I don't know.

Traders should be armed up and have to defend themselves and earn their profits.

In my Type 7 the best profit I got per hour was 3.8 Million. Didn't need weapons, only got interdicted once and escaped.
As soon as I had enough money for what I wanted I sold it because trading is so boring because of this very reason.

Trading should be the most dangerous profesion, not the other way round.

I approve of this

Bounties should be increased too, perhaps by around 50%, and scale better with NPC skill/ship/wing.

 

[Titus Balls]

The real and only problem is that combat and trading are seperate entities.

You trade or you fight.

The previous Elite games combined the two. The player had to fight their way to the next station to deliver cargo, collecting bounties as they do.

Simple isn't it. Why the very core of Elite changed for this sequel I don't know.

Traders should be armed up and have to defend themselves and earn their profits.

In my Type 7 the best profit I got per hour was 3.8 Million. Didn't need weapons, only got interdicted once and escaped.
As soon as I had enough money for what I wanted I sold it because trading is so boring because of this very reason.

Trading should be the most dangerous profesion, not the other way round.

I've broken my forum embargo to come say, out of this whole thread you're the only making sense today.

 

[shadragon]

This is about pure and simple gameplay imbalance.

Someone dedicates four years to get a university degree in biology then seven more years to go to medical school. They gain an advanced degree in virology and end up in a research center making a mid-range six figure income.

Someone else works in a coffee shop watching the doctor drive by in his Bentley and thinks, "That's not fair. I want a Bentley as well."

You want something, you work for it. Sitting on the sidelines and moaning about 'imbalance' accomplishes nothing. Life is imbalanced.