Discussion What is the most efficient way to crowdsource the 3D system coordinates

Why not do as EDSC does on its output and have a "lastupdated" field per fixup, then people can apply starting with the first that has a lastupdated after the previous last one they'd applied ?

I do update the commanderupdate (to 'RW Correction') and updatedate (to the time when I run the fixup process) for non-trivial fixes. The problem is that I always grab the complete dataset (to avoid any possibility of missing anything) and reapply all fixes so all the fixed systems/distances get the same updatedate. I don't store when a fix is first applied so I have no way to pass that through to the output. I guess I could tag each fix with a date when I set it up but that's extra work. I didn't really plan for other people independently applying the fixes ;)
 
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@RedWizzard: Your collection is great! Many Rep!
To be sure it is always available, I felt free to host a clone at http://www.the-temple.de/rw/ed-systems/
Will be pulled every hour, so expect your updates to appear fast.
Edit: Works fine on desktop PC and new notebook. My old netbook is a bit too weak for cruel JavaScripting... ;)
 
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Some more issues: While checking the data against eddb.io I found a wrong name: EDSC says it's "Wolf 851 A", EDDB says the name is "Wolf 851". EDDB is right.

And we have 18 differing coordinates, see below. I checked a few of them ingame at the GM, and the EDDB coordinates seem to be correct. Can we pls check this and correct it, if possible?

3861
Corngaricoords mismatch: (84.3125/-99.03125/93.0625) vs EDDB (66.09375/-27.125/68.40625)
12908
Lu Yupikcoords mismatch: (70.53125/24.53125/41.15625) vs EDDB (21.53125/-19.21875/4.25)
13014
Macalitescoords mismatch: (76.53125/21.78125/40.46875) vs EDDB (31.53125/-18.21875/0.46875)
14932Oguninksmiicoords mismatch: (80/47.84375/53.34375) vs EDDB (66/29.84375/53.34375)
19942Alrai Sector WI-T a3-3coords mismatch: (-6.75/-25.4375/50) vs EDDB (-12.3125/-28.65625/42)
20202Col 285 Sector NS-U a32-0coords mismatch: (105.125/-26.25/-4.8125) vs EDDB (105.34375/-42.25/-4.75)
21370Tascheter Sector FG-X b1-1coords mismatch: (37.75/-3.84375/-68.46875) vs EDDB (39.15625/-0.34375/-69.28125)
21628Crucis Sector MD-S b4-6coords mismatch: (56.625/43.90625/79.84375) vs EDDB (56.6875/44/80.03125)
21860Tascheter Sector ST-R a4-0coords mismatch: (-13.25/-37.03125/-59.1875) vs EDDB (-10.1875/-36.3125/-56.375)
21924Alrai Sector IR-W c1-29coords mismatch: (-54.34375/-10.09375/88.6875) vs EDDB (-58.78125/-14.3125/92.90625)
21961Bobcoords mismatch: (-25.375/1.125/-20.84375) vs EDDB (-24.53125/-0.4375/-46.65625)
22364LFT 179coords mismatch: (10.59375/-75.875/-9.03125) vs EDDB (13.65625/-70.34375/-16.4375)
22556Col 285 Sector QE-M b22-6coords mismatch: (110.125/-5.0625/119.5) vs EDDB (113.625/-7.5625/120.5)
22610Gamma Muscaecoords mismatch: (272.46875/-54.28125/168.34375) vs EDDB (272.5/-54.0625/168.375)
22801Hyades Sector NJ-O b7-4coords mismatch: (14.40625/73.875/-109.5625) vs EDDB (6.46875/69.53125/-108.125)
22903Col 285 Sector HV-D b13-5coords mismatch: (200.53125/-13.875/-100.96875) vs EDDB (199.5/-14.9375/-74.125)
23135Puppis Sector ZZ-Y b4coords mismatch: (62.46875/36.8125/-55.3125) vs EDDB (64.46875/42.25/-59.71875)
23220Taurus Dark Region GW-W d1-53coords mismatch: (-32.5625/-74.28125/-401.53125) vs EDDB (-32.59375/-74.25/-401.53125)
 
Some more issues: While checking the data against eddb.io I found a wrong name: EDSC says it's "Wolf 851 A", EDDB says the name is "Wolf 851". EDDB is right.

And we have 18 differing coordinates, see below. I checked a few of them ingame at the GM, and the EDDB coordinates seem to be correct. Can we pls check this and correct it, if possible?

Thanks, I'll take a look at these soon. Haven't been any updates for a couple of days because I've been trying out the vulture and fer de lance ;)

Edit: Ok, they're all already correct in tgcsystems.json. My fixup process recalculates coordinates for all systems so I don't put corrections for coordinates in tgcfixups.json (except to reset a few systems to null coordinates where there are no longer enough distances). You can see the corrections in the sample output I posted the other day though. Not sure what the easiest way for you to handle these would be... perhaps compare tgcsystems.json to EDSC/TGC to see what I've changed.
 
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Do you ever sleep? ;)
Tnx for fixing. So if you don't use systems.json anymore, why not remove it? If you decide to get it back again ni a year or two, don't worry, git remembers until doomsday.
And if all your fixes are applied to tgcsystems.json, I'll not use corrections.json anymore.

I'm in contact to the EDDB maintainer, because there are some other problems, but I think these are on the EDDB side of the fence. When this is sorted, I'll take a last comparison and remove any discrepancies between your tgcsystems.json, EDDB and our Auriga. Afterwards it is time to have some minimalistic APIs for querying intel and submitting distances, and then I need a GUI for hunting down the remaining errors and suspicious distances. Took me way longer than expected.

Thanks for your effort!
 
Do you ever sleep? ;)
Tnx for fixing. So if you don't use systems.json anymore, why not remove it? If you decide to get it back again ni a year or two, don't worry, git remembers until doomsday.
And if all your fixes are applied to tgcsystems.json, I'll not use corrections.json anymore.

I'm in New Zealand so it only looks like I'm not sleeping :D

Good idea about removing systems.json, have done so. There is still some useful data in it (that's not in TGC) but for now better to remove it for now to avoid confusion.
tgcsystems.json (and tgcdistances.json) does have all the corrections already applied. I've just updated them with some new fixes.

I found one annoying case: ED has both "m Carinae" and "M Carinae", i.e. different only in terms of case. My code can't really handle that (it uses lowercase versions of the names as unique keys internally), and neither does TGC/EDSC. I've separated out the distances for the two systems and called one of them 'M Carinae (HD 88981)' - HD 88981 is one of the alternate names that the system can be found under in the galaxy map. I've filed a bug about it as I think it should be changed in the game.
 
Yea, things are going on.
RedWizzard, the last issue I found when comparing tgcsystems.json to our DB was a double space in a system's name, I sent you a pull request for that.
I had to push my PHP memory limit to 256M when comparing the distances, hope to finish this today...
 
Yea, things are going on.
RedWizzard, the last issue I found when comparing tgcsystems.json to our DB was a double space in a system's name, I sent you a pull request for that.
I had to push my PHP memory limit to 256M when comparing the distances, hope to finish this today...

Merged that, though I just realised that there are probably distances in tgcdistances.json with the bad name too. They'll get fixed next time I run my clean up process.
 
Merged that, though I just realised that there are probably distances in tgcdistances.json with the bad name too. They'll get fixed next time I run my clean up process.

RW your merge seem to have broken tgcsystems.json

Code:
<<<<<<< HEAD
=======
      "id": 25970,
      "name": "HIP 9316",
      "coord": [
        null,
        null,
        null
      ],
      "cr": 1,
      "commandercreate": "greenbird",
      "createdate": "2015-03-01 09:41:57",
      "commanderupdate": "greenbird",
      "updatedate": "2015-03-01 09:41:57"
    },
    {
>>>>>>> refs/remotes/origin/master
 
Yes, sorry. Should be fixed now.

Thanks, also a few more case diffs:
Code:
System names differ by case RedWizzard vs Starchart
HOANDCAN vs Hoandcan
m Carinae vs M Carinae
ROSS 271 vs Ross 271

But otherwise pretty much in step now. Thanks for your efforts RW!
 
Works like a charme right now, I think I am at a point where my database is precise enough to start working with the data. The script to compare RedWizzards JSONs shows 0 differences. Compairing to EDDB shows some differences, but if I check these ingame I see EDDB is wrong or unprecise, at least for the few I checked. Maybe you want to take a look at the systems lsited below.

26694 systems fetched from RedWizzard's tgcsystems.json at Thu, 12 Mar 2015 11:03:21 +0100
0 system names not found in our database
0 differing locations
0 locations known by RW but not in our database
6441 distances fetched from RedWizzard's tgcdistances.json at Thu, 12 Mar 2015 11:03:27 +0100
23172 systems fetched from EDDB at Thu, 12 Mar 2015 11:12:34 +0100
2 system names not found in our database
1 differing locations
17 locations known by EDDB but not in our database
19902Alpha CygniEDDB has coordinates (-1405/46.125/132.5) but we don't
20071Cephei Sector KM-W c1-24EDDB has coordinates (-99.28125/-1.15625/-23.28125) but we don't
20084Cephei Sector NX-U b2-6EDDB has coordinates (-91.96875/0.78125/-29.03125) but we don't
20085Cephei Sector NX-U b2-7EDDB has coordinates (-96.53125/1.3125/-29.09375) but we don't
20302ConnlaEDDB has coordinates (-29.90625/14.5625/13.65625) but we don't
20631HIP 113905EDDB has coordinates (-140.3125/36.9375/-68.5) but we don't
20633HIP 114769EDDB has coordinates (-155.5/13.5625/-67.34375) but we don't
21147Ot SerpentisEDDB has coordinates (-11.125/30.34375/18.40625) but we don't
21276Sagittarius A*EDDB has coordinates (25.21875/-20.90625/25899.96875) but we don't
21438Wolf 654EDDB has coordinates (-28.46875/22.40625/14.8125) but we don't
21666HIP 24019 · HIP 24020no match
22126Ditibi (old location)no match
22540Oevaxy OA-A D0EDDB has coordinates (-221.25/-230/65509.375) but we don't
22541Lyncis Sector JX-T B3-1EDDB has coordinates (-79/105/-127) but we don't
22542Lyncis Sector ND-S B4-3EDDB has coordinates (-81/101/-110) but we don't
22660Lyncis Sector KX-T B3-1EDDB has coordinates (-57/98/-140) but we don't
22784HIP 49605EDDB has coordinates (284.84375/-13.78125/68.5) but we don't
22828Synuefe HF-I b57-6EDDB has coordinates (282.5625/-51.65625/162.65625) but we don't
2284917 DraconisEDDB has coordinates (-310/272/50) but we don't
23044ICZ IR-V b2-5coords mismatch: (78.96875/-120.375/27.90625) vs EDDB (76.03125/-122.78125/29.40625)
 
Works like a charme right now, I think I am at a point where my database is precise enough to start working with the data. The script to compare RedWizzards JSONs shows 0 differences. Compairing to EDDB shows some differences, but if I check these ingame I see EDDB is wrong or unprecise, at least for the few I checked. Maybe you want to take a look at the systems lsited below.

26694 systems fetched from RedWizzard's tgcsystems.json at Thu, 12 Mar 2015 11:03:21 +0100
0 system names not found in our database
0 differing locations
0 locations known by RW but not in our database
6441 distances fetched from RedWizzard's tgcdistances.json at Thu, 12 Mar 2015 11:03:27 +0100
23172 systems fetched from EDDB at Thu, 12 Mar 2015 11:12:34 +0100
2 system names not found in our database
1 differing locations
17 locations known by EDDB but not in our database
19902Alpha CygniEDDB has coordinates (-1405/46.125/132.5) but we don't
20071Cephei Sector KM-W c1-24EDDB has coordinates (-99.28125/-1.15625/-23.28125) but we don't
20084Cephei Sector NX-U b2-6EDDB has coordinates (-91.96875/0.78125/-29.03125) but we don't
20085Cephei Sector NX-U b2-7EDDB has coordinates (-96.53125/1.3125/-29.09375) but we don't
20302ConnlaEDDB has coordinates (-29.90625/14.5625/13.65625) but we don't
20631HIP 113905EDDB has coordinates (-140.3125/36.9375/-68.5) but we don't
20633HIP 114769EDDB has coordinates (-155.5/13.5625/-67.34375) but we don't
21147Ot SerpentisEDDB has coordinates (-11.125/30.34375/18.40625) but we don't
21276Sagittarius A*EDDB has coordinates (25.21875/-20.90625/25899.96875) but we don't
21438Wolf 654EDDB has coordinates (-28.46875/22.40625/14.8125) but we don't
21666HIP 24019 · HIP 24020no match
22126Ditibi (old location)no match
22540Oevaxy OA-A D0EDDB has coordinates (-221.25/-230/65509.375) but we don't
22541Lyncis Sector JX-T B3-1EDDB has coordinates (-79/105/-127) but we don't
22542Lyncis Sector ND-S B4-3EDDB has coordinates (-81/101/-110) but we don't
22660Lyncis Sector KX-T B3-1EDDB has coordinates (-57/98/-140) but we don't
22784HIP 49605EDDB has coordinates (284.84375/-13.78125/68.5) but we don't
22828Synuefe HF-I b57-6EDDB has coordinates (282.5625/-51.65625/162.65625) but we don't
2284917 DraconisEDDB has coordinates (-310/272/50) but we don't
23044ICZ IR-V b2-5coords mismatch: (78.96875/-120.375/27.90625) vs EDDB (76.03125/-122.78125/29.40625)

Yes, some people have been adding systems to EDDB directly. I had a quick look and they seem reasonable but not sure how accurate they are. I especially like Oevaxy OA-A D0 as it is on the other side of the galaxy!
 
I don't have a problem with people adding systems to another system. In fact I am working on an EDSC replacement, too.
I have a problem with inaccurate coordinates, so if someone could check ingame and verify the systems in list, would be great.
And as long as I don't know how these coordinates were calculated, I don't put them in my database.
I can't check ingame right now... :( BTW: Anyone knows how to install Win7 prof. on an Asus Zenbook?
 
I don't have a problem with people adding systems to another system. In fact I am working on an EDSC replacement, too.
I have a problem with inaccurate coordinates, so if someone could check ingame and verify the systems in list, would be great.
And as long as I don't know how these coordinates were calculated, I don't put them in my database.
I can't check ingame right now... :( BTW: Anyone knows how to install Win7 prof. on an Asus Zenbook?

And how can you check them in game without actually going there and doing the triangulation? I suppose you can go to a few reference stars and get the distances, still a lot of work ....
 
You can: 1.) Check the distance from your actual location to those systems, then submit to TGC, or calculate the distance from the coordinates and compare.
2.) Just look at the galaxy map and check the numbers at the grid, compare them to the coordinates coming from EDDB.
 
Thanks, also a few more case diffs:
Code:
System names differ by case RedWizzard vs Starchart
HOANDCAN vs Hoandcan
m Carinae vs M Carinae
ROSS 271 vs Ross 271

But otherwise pretty much in step now. Thanks for your efforts RW!

Will add these, thanks. Annoyingly "m Carinae" and "M Carinae" are actually different stars. In my data I've called them "m Carinae" and "M Carinae (HD 88981)".

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

And how can you check them in game without actually going there and doing the triangulation? I suppose you can go to a few reference stars and get the distances, still a lot of work ....

Checking the distances from a couple of reference stars is what I've done in the past to verify coordinates, but it's not going to be foolproof if the target star is a long way away.
 
Alpha Cygni - EDDB coords correct. I had the same in systems.json but some of the reference stars were deleted between beta3 and gamma and it can't be trilaterated right now. I'll get a few more references.

Connla, HIP 113905, HIP 114769, Ot Serpentis, Wolf 654 - these are all beta3 reference systems that FD didn't provide in the reference list for gamma (presumably they no longer have stations). I've verified the coordinates ages ago but hadn't got around to giving TornSoul a list to load into TGC before he vanished. I'll add these to my copy of the data.

Sagittarius A* - can't be trilaterated with the algorithm I'm using now for the references TGC has though I was able to do it back in beta2 (or was it beta1?) when we still had 3 decimal places for distances in the galaxy map. Coordinates in EDDB are correct. My personal challenge is to try to find the right references and/or tweaks to the algorithm so that I can trilaterate Sag A*.

Ditibi (old location) - Ditibi changed location after release. At one point I was keeping the old location in the database as "Ditibi (old location)" to preserve the distances recorded (which were valid distances to the old coordinates), but I've found that none of the old distances are necessary so I've deleted it now.

HIP 24019 · HIP 24020 - I've keep these are separate systems in my data. They have the same coordinates in the galaxy map.

Synuefe HF-I b57-6 - I get the same coordinates trilaterating with the 3 distances that are in TGC. That's not enough distances for any real confidence though so I've been leaving the coordinates null.

ICZ IR-V b2-5 - coordinates in EDDB are for ICZ IR-V b2-2. This is an issue I fixed fairly recently.

Oevaxy OA-A D0 - eyeballing the coordinates on the galaxy map shows that EDDB has it wrong. The second coordinate should be about -23, not -230.

The rest are either not in not in TGC or don't have enough distances to trilaterate.
 
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I am testing my way to find coordinates with the Gauss elimination. It's too early to say if it will reveal some great secrets, but it looks promising. I'd like to compare it with other methods, but actually I don't know how RedWizzard and Tornsoul and others do this exactly. Any help? I mean, I can read the source code at RedWizzard's GIT repository, but I don't understand it, and I can't use it from PHP.

My implementation of the Gaussian elimination works with 4 reference distances, and if these 4 reference distances are correct, it finds a valid solution always. I then have to check if a neighbour of this solution is a valid solution, too. This is f.ex. for 17 Draconis, (-305.75/272.21875/49.53125) and (-305.75/272.21875/49.5) are possible coordinates for all collected distances. LTT 1593 got two solutions, (81.75/-118.78125/-21.09375) & (81.75/-118.8125/-21.09375). There are some more.

And what I didn't expect: When I have 5 reference distances, and one of them is wrong (at least I suppose it to be wrong), I do calculate the coordinates with every combination using 4 of 5 distances, I may get a valid solution exept the suggested wrong distance, even if it was part of the set of 4 distances used to get the coordinates.

OK, it sounds a bit complicated. I'll try to give an example:

Ross 556 has no coordinates but 5 distances, to George Pantazis, PSPF-LF 2, WISE 0146+4234, LFT 215 and LHS 1375.
For simplicity I call them A, B, C, D and E for now. I think that E, distance from LHS 1375 to Ross 556, is 7.12 Ly, and not 7.13 Ly as TGC states.

When I calculate coordinates using distances A B C and D, I get a solution with A B C D ok, E wrong. As expected.
When I calculate using B C D and E, I get the same solution, where A B C & D are ok, E wrong. Same as before, even when I use the "wrong" distance for calculation.

Another example: col 285 Sector XZ-M B21-6
5 distances, 5 checks. One spills out (4079,-3423,3215)/32 which renders all distances invalid, all other 4 checks give (4080,-3423,3215)/32, and here all distances are good except Halbara.

I think I will make a way to mark these distances "suspicious" in my own database, and have a web frontend where you can enter the system name you're in, and you get a list of these suspicious distances, and enter the correct distances.
Maybe this is a good way to get rid of the multiple distances entered due to typos or having the wrong system name, 328 actually. Yes, I was involved there, too ;)
We have 323 distances between systems with known coordinates, but the distance differs for 0.05 Ly or less.
We have 216 distances where the error is larger. And we have additionally 141 errors between systems with a CR of 5 or higher.
Leads me to another question: How to deal with errors and how to clean up. TGC considers a system to be verified after reaching CR=5. So I think it would be a good thing to offload all distances between systems with CR>=5 to a different place and not use them for "daily work", because we don't need them anymore.
If we have different distances submitted between the same systems, we need someone to visit one of the systems to verify. How many verification do we need to declare a distance as wrong, removing it from the table, or offloading it?

TGC gives a CR of 1 for a set of 5 distances leading to successful trilateration. And if someone enters a distance, it gets a CR of 1, too. I assume TornSoul considered the CRs for distances different than for coordinates, and I think this should be seen the same way.
So in a first step, when collecting TGC and RedWizzard's data, I took the coordinate CR multiplied by 100, and the distance CR multiplied by 20.
When I do my web interface to enter distances, I would like to have registered commanders identified, because I believe someone who cares to register and identify will put more care to distances than someone anonymous. And they will see what they submitted, and be able to change or delete their errors. This is what I am missing most at TGC.
In a second step I will do an API similar to TGC, so RedWizzard's and other applications may submit distances to my database, and every tool using TGC may get more correct data in the same way as from TGC.

Any thoughts on this?
 
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