Should ED go down the same path as SC

[jabokai]

Still, I already have 3 ships and I don't know why either!! Planning on getting a 4th... why ... I DON'T KNOW! Darnit! Help me!! :S )

Ironically, I have one and am thinking of trading down! I have the 300i and want to melt it down (or whatever they call it) and get the basic ship... I pledged for the wrong thing initially!

 

[izzy]

I think it's a bad idea ... FD don't need to follow SC for getting more money.
FD is not a new game company, with the money from KS, they have enough money to make ED

 

[Carsten]

I think it's a bad idea ... FD don't need to follow SC for getting more money.
FD is not a new game company, with the money from KS, they have enough money to make ED

You might be right

But SC has clearly shown that there is a market for these kind of things, so why not cater to it???
As long as its something we can all get sooner or later ingame I really dont see the problem.

On that note I still have the basic ship in SC so havent upgraded ... yet but that new cruise luxury ship will prob. tempt me ALOT.

 

[Mephane]

You might be right

But SC has clearly shown that there is a market for these kind of things, so why not cater to it???
As long as its something we can all get sooner or later ingame I really dont see the problem.

Because there are also people who do not like this approach. Because catering those who happily buy ingame objects with real money, even more so before there even is a game, can easily scare away the former group of people. Because many of that former group have already backed ED on the very premise that it will not do the same as SC both gameplay and marketing wise.

And, last but not least, because SC is most likely a fluke, just like World of Warcraft has always been. Don't expect anyone to ever repeat it successfully.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

As long as its something we can all get sooner or later ingame I really dont see the problem

I see it as strong deluding force of playability of the game. Especially for a game like ED, which is exclusively based on skills, it is important NOT to give player such temptation of advantage. Because fun is learning how to survive with 100 creds and pulse laser, not buying yourself starting advantage.

So far what I have heard from people there's lot of SC backers see game as place to "hang out" (as whole reason of friends pledging), not really testing and advancing their skills, so selling ships to them makes more sense. Also "missing out" argument is very heavy thrown around in SC community. This alone can make friends and people knowing each other to pledge to SC, because "others do that too"

p.s. Also I don't see current pledging to SC as "market". There's multiple factors at work there, which *in my opinion* are exploited by CIG marketing and PR, like "PC master race", "consoles sucks", "EA sucks" clauses, fact that there are very few PC exclusive games, and market is shrinking, etc.

Most of us and FD just want another Elite game I guess. There's no hidden agenda to show it to publishers or being exclusively PC game Although FD seems to convert themselves into independent dev/publish house.

 

[Hellhawk666]

I very much admire the skill with which Star Citizen is being marketed - it is an exemplar of a successfully crowdfunded project. The focus on ship pledging is genius and is a mechanism that also addresses goals other than simple fundraising.

But would it work for ED? IMHO no, certainly not at this stage of its development, and it probably never would have. CIG specifically set out to create ship models of exceptionally high detail right from the start with a view to selling them in exchange for pledge donations. I'm not suggesting that ED has been lax in this area of design, but it feels like their philosophy has been more balanced and has not focused on this one aspect. I think it's also fair to say that the demographic for ED is a bit different and the ship-pledge strategy may not have been as good a fit anyway.

I do feel that SC are suffering the tall-poppy syndrome at the moment. For all their success and enthusiastic support, I've been seeing more and more critical opinions about them in the last few months, both on their own forums and on others. A lot of these have no basis in fact or reason, and some are just pure scaremongering and bile.

It's actually quite amusing sometimes. You get postings on their forums along the lines of "They're making too much money and should reign it all in!", "Stop selling ships now - it's out of hand!" and "Concentrate on making the game and not feature creep!". Hilarious. Especially so because you can also bet that any thread where ED is mentioned over there will attract at least one post along the lines of "they only have a tenth of the crowdfunding and backers that we have - it's amateur and a failure". Fortunately the great majority of posts are supportive of both games, but the extremists can be good for a laugh.

 

[Slawkenbergius]

I do feel that SC are suffering the tall-poppy syndrome at the moment.

I agree.

It's a bit sad that all these Star Citizen threads keep popping up in the part of the forum that's supposed to be about Elite, as it basically puts Elite a little bit in the shadows. I'd rather see them in 'Other games'.

 

[Aewarin Jameson]

I'd rather see them in 'Other games'.

<nods>

 

[Geraldine]

I agree.

It's a bit sad that all these Star Citizen threads keep popping up in the part of the forum that's supposed to be about Elite, as it basically puts Elite a little bit in the shadows. I'd rather see them in 'Other games'.

<nods>

Agreed folks, moving thread.

 

[Hellhawk666]

I agree.

It's a bit sad that all these Star Citizen threads keep popping up in the part of the forum that's supposed to be about Elite, as it basically puts Elite a little bit in the shadows. I'd rather see them in 'Other games'.

Threads purely discussing another game, certainly - but ones like this that discuss Elite in the context of comparison with another game seem fair enough. I don't think there's too much danger of ED being overshadowed on its home turf

Anyway, soon we'll all be discussing nothing except the alpha - roll on happy days!

 

[Geraldine]

Anyway, soon we'll all be discussing nothing except the alpha - roll on happy days!

Indeed, I cant wait to see what people think of it.

 

[Jenner]

@Voyager_NL: I couldn't agree more. +1 for sure.

I find it odd how so many people look at the success of Cloud Imperium Games' fundraising and come to the conclusion that Roberts et al are a bunch of money grubbing snake oil salesmen. They're making a product that people want and are successfully marketing that product. Is it really their fault that people want to give them their hard earned cash? I don't know about others, but any business that would scoff at that shouldn't be in business.

 

[Pyros]

To be fair, I haven't been keeping that up-to-date. All I'm going on is my perception of the Kickstarter and those stretch goals. I honestly can't believe that with a $500k initial target they were really planning on achieving $30m before launch.

Well, CR crowdfunding initiative didn't start with the kickstarter, but on their own site. The KS started afterwards, when they already had about 2M or so from the site.

The amount was later consolidated to about 6 million (if I remember correctly). Most of the money poured in after the KS ended for sure.

That's true. They were well organised in their Kickstarter appeal, and clearly knew how to grab interest. But bear in mind that the vast majority of the funding they have received is post-Kickstarter, and IMO down to their desire to bring in as many $$$ as possible through the realisation that people will pay for these extras. Take the hangar module for example -- the amount of people who went crazy over what's effectively a static environment with nothing to do is phenomenal.

I'm not really knocking what SC have done; they've obtained a large amount of funding in a relatively short period. I just prefer the way FD have gone about it, that's all.

There were many problems with FD's Kickstarter. I think one of the main ones was that they were relying on the nostalgia of the name, so didn't think they needed a real sales pitch other than "It's a new Elite, people!". That was flawed: 20 years is a long time, and FD haven't done anything similar to Elite in the intervening time, so even some hardcore fans of the series could have their doubts. Without much to show in the way of screenshots or video, we were pledging for an idea, and that's a scary thing for us Englishmen who find it hard to part with cash at the best of times. Kickstarter was also a new thing to the UK at the time, and for many of us it was the first we'd heard of it.

Indeed, the marketing of SC was extremely professional and well done. The KS effort of ED wasn't all that good. And you identified correctly that not only KS (as a platform) was new in UK at the time, as also the European culture is far less supportive of this type of initiatives (more so in continental Europe).

And Wing Commander was a far newer game, that impacted on the large american audience (unlike the original Elite or even Frontier).

Even so, Elite was one of the most funded game KS ever at the time. It only pales in comparison with american "blockbusters", of which the undisputed king is SC.

PErsonally I also believe that SC needs far more funding to be sucessful than ED, due to the nature of the games and the experience they propose. Different games.

 

[PacalB]

@Voyager_NL: I couldn't agree more. +1 for sure.

I find it odd how so many people look at the success of Cloud Imperium Games' fundraising and come to the conclusion that Roberts et al are a bunch of money grubbing snake oil salesmen. They're making a product that people want and are successfully marketing that product. Is it really their fault that people want to give them their hard earned cash? I don't know about others, but any business that would scoff at that shouldn't be in business.

Gotta agree with you Jenner and Voyager_NL's points, I mean taking pot shots at Roberts for being successful in his chosen methods of funding is ridiculous.

As for not selling ships in ED, well ... I don't see a problem with it if FD are going to take time to pour love, detail, individuality and complexity into each ship model designed. The Mechwarrior universe has a huge following, the devs over at MWO know that people will buy into the mechs for the history and love for the things, yes even if they are digital.

I don't see why the ships in ED can't be elevated to a level where people say; "its a classic" and just start dribbling when they see the level of detail and attention spent on them. I mean the "Timber Wolf" is known throughout the mech world for the Clan guys much like the "Cobra" is known here. If FD truly breathe "life" into these ships inside and out the sales for these things would rocket no end.

And again, like I said in another thread ... it is not pay to win, it is just another tonnage class and the opportunity to play with your weapons/ships configurations slightly differently. It adds individuality as a vanity item to your ship and it said class. This not only, keeps the money rolling in for FD but it keeps new classes of ships rolling off the FD production lines as the future unfolds.

We expect all that for free? Uslot that have the "unlimited" upgrades are a finite bunch, the masses that come after us, well ... they missed the window of opportunity for that in KS and whilst in main production.

Lastly, don't you lot want ED to become as popular say EVE or SC? Or is there some kind of snobbishness going on here? Some kind of Elitism dare I say?

Flippin iphone.

 

[Rog]

Should E: D emulate SC?

Hell, no - not in my opinion.

I'm not knocking SC in the slightest - good luck to them, but E: D is a different style of game altogether, and that's the one I backed and want to see made properly. And will probably play for years.

E: D isn't reliant on a P2W model (thank Grud!), and it doesn't require a bazillion players each with an insanely expensive virtual fleet of ships - indeed E: D is going to have an excellent single-player experience.

SC may have the megabucks, but I'm pretty confident which of the games fits my wishlist more accurately, and which will ultimately be the superior and more satisfying experience (for me at least).

There's plenty of room for more than one space-sim with different styles and attributes. The differences should be welcomed and embraced.

 

[Carsten]

Gotta agree with you Jenner and Voyager_NL's points, I mean taking pot shots at Roberts for being successful in his chosen methods of funding is ridiculous.

Agreed ... its silly.

I don't see why the ships in ED can't be elevated to a level where people say; "its a classic" and just start dribbling when they see the level of detail and attention spent on them. I mean the "Timber Wolf" is known throughout the mech world for the Clan guys much like the "Cobra" is known here. If FD truly breathe "life" into these ships inside and out the sales for these things would rocket no end.

And again, like I said in another thread ... it is not pay to win, it is just another tonnage class and the opportunity to play with your weapons/ships configurations slightly differently. It adds individuality as a vanity item to your ship and it said class. This not only, keeps the money rolling in for FD but it keeps new classes of ships rolling off the FD production lines as the future unfolds.

Well put

We expect all that for free? Uslot that have the "unlimited" upgrades are a finite bunch, the masses that come after us, well ... they missed the window of opportunity for that in KS and whilst in main production.

Lastly, don't you lot want ED to become as popular say EVE or SC? Or is there some kind of snobbishness going on here? Some kind of Elitism dare I say?

Hell yes we want it to become very popular

 

[Slawkenbergius]

Gotta agree with you Jenner and Voyager_NL's points, I mean taking pot shots at Roberts for being successful in his chosen methods of funding is ridiculous.

Potshots at Chris Roberts I think are a bit unfair, as there's been no indication of him being anything but genuine.

Criticisms of the funding method I reckon are valid. I don't particularly like it myself. It's not so much the idea of the game being pay2win that bothers me, but more the fact that the items people are paying for (or getting as a thank you for funding, if you will) are only going to have value to the player if the game is a success. Too many games look like they'll be great on paper and look very promising, and then turn out to be cack.

Even assuming Star Citizen turns out as well as it looks it will, that same funding method might be emulated in future by a less proficient dev team, and the fallout will be horrible.

 

[Jenner]

Potshots at Chris Roberts I think are a bit unfair, as there's been no indication of him being anything but genuine.

Criticisms of the funding method I reckon are valid. I don't particularly like it myself. It's not so much the idea of the game being pay2win that bothers me, but more the fact that the items people are paying for (or getting as a thank you for funding, if you will) are only going to have value to the player if the game is a success. Too many games look like they'll be great on paper and look very promising, and then turn out to be cack.

Even assuming Star Citizen turns out as well as it looks it will, that same funding method might be emulated in future by a less proficient dev team, and the fallout will be horrible.

Well can't you say the same thing about the high tiers offered by FD? They will only have value if the game is good.

Another way to look at it is this: If you are having a good time following the game's development, interacting on the forums, meeting people, doing fan art, or just firing up your hangar app and thinking about flying your toys, have you not gotten your money's worth?

 

[ianw]

Well in theory their funding should at least slow down after the 26th.

They should nail 30 million easily by then (28.7 at time of posting) and the Bombers, Super Hornet and Idris are yet to go on sale again.

 

[Slawkenbergius]

Well can't you say the same thing about the high tiers offered by FD? They will only have value if the game is good.

Yeah, I do think that about naming a space-station, and being a founder's member and whatnot. The only reason I went as high as DDF access was because I figured I would get a lot from the process. I see positives and negatives in both campaigns, but the fact that we're getting two space-games out of it is enough to make me happy. And I'm not going to criticise people for pledging generously, because if they want to do that, it's awesome.

Just looking back at X: Rebirth though, and the out-pouring of vitriol in some cases... It's a bit scary to think what the outcome of a really high-profile crowdfunding failure would be.