Vulture v Asp firepower

[marcus10]

Hi all

Apologies if this has been answered but I couldn't find it on a search. I've seen lots of threads on how the Vulture beats an Asp for combat based on manoevaribility, shields etc as well as having the two large hardpoints.

From a pure firepower perspective though, doesn't the Asp win? Compare equipping two large hardpoints with 3E/G pulses (3 DPS) on a Vulture with 2 x medium 2F/G (3 DPS) and 4 x 1F/G Pulse (3 DPS) on an Asp. Obviously I must be missing something here as the large v medium hardpoints must make a difference?

Thanks

 

[Calomiriel]

Large hardpoint-Weapons do 100% damage against large ships, small-hardpoint-weapons do only 33% against large ships and 66% against Medium ships.
That 2 Medium-Hardpoints do only 66% damage to large ships.

That 3 dps thing is not the correct value, large hardpoints do more damage then Medium.

another Thing: you can stay on your target way better in a vulture and target the Subsystems, so if you have some flying-skills, you can shoot out the powerplant way faster.

 

[Elfman]

You can fit fixed to vulture so more damage there and large weapons do full damage to larger targets

 

[marcus10]

Large hardpoint-Weapons do 100% damage against large ships, small-hardpoint-weapons do only 33% against large ships and 66% against Medium ships.
That 2 Medium-Hardpoints do only 66% damage to large ships.

That 3 dps thing is not the correct value, large hardpoints do more damage then Medium.

another Thing: you can stay on your target way better in a vulture and target the Subsystems, so if you have some flying-skills, you can shoot out the powerplant way faster.

Thanks for that, I wasn't aware of that.

Following that through, say I'm taking on a Conda in both ships. In the Vulture, I do 2 x 100% damage, let's call it 200%. In the Asp, I do 2 x 66% = 133% on the mediums and 4 x 33% = 132% on the small, totalling 133% + 132% = 265% in the Asp v 200% in the Vulture.

Presumably though, a large hardpoint does more total damage and damage per second than a medium hardpoint even before you consider the scaling above?

 

[Elfman]

Thanks for that, I wasn't aware of that.

Following that through, say I'm taking on a Conda in both ships. In the Vulture, I do 2 x 100% damage, let's call it 200%. In the Asp, I do 2 x 66% = 133% on the mediums and 4 x 33% = 132% on the small, totalling 133% + 132% = 265% in the Asp v 200% in the Vulture.

Presumably though, a large hardpoint does more total damage and damage per second than a medium hardpoint even before you consider the scaling above?

yep so if you imagine 1 med does for example 2 a medium 4 and a large 6 - not even close to real numbers but an example

with a vulture you do 12 dam with asp you would do 6.6 and thats beside the fact fixed do more damage than gimbal

 

[Red Fox Four]

Thanks for that, I wasn't aware of that.

Following that through, say I'm taking on a Conda in both ships. In the Vulture, I do 2 x 100% damage, let's call it 200%. In the Asp, I do 2 x 66% = 133% on the mediums and 4 x 33% = 132% on the small, totalling 133% + 132% = 265% in the Asp v 200% in the Vulture.

Presumably though, a large hardpoint does more total damage and damage per second than a medium hardpoint even before you consider the scaling above?

I'm not sure this math is right... can you go by just %?

For example, by using values (just made up values for same of argument)

C3 weapon does 200 damage
C2 weapon does 100 damage
C1 weapon does 50 damage

So Vulture
200 dmg * 2 guns = 400 damage

Asp
100 dmg x 0,66 (reduction) = 66 per gun * 2 guns = 132
50 dmg x 0,33 (reduction) = 16,5 per gun * 4 guns = 66
132 dmg + 66 dmg = 198 damage

So in this case, if the C3 weapons do more damage, in value, the Vulture will easily outdamage the Asp (due to the already lower damage numbers being further reduced when fired on larger ships).

If all guns do same damage, e.g 100.
Vulture = 2 * 100 = 200 dmg
Asp = (2 * (100 * 0,66)) + (4 * (100 * 0,33)) = 264 dmg

So there are 2 questions really.
1) Does all guns do same damage?
2) If not, then what are the damage numbers for C3 vs C2 and C1 guns (average).

Also, bonus question:
Does the C3 weapons get a damage INcrease against smaller ships (considering smaller guns get a DEcrease against larger ships) ?

If so, then the C3 guns will outperform the lower class weapons by a mile, particularly on smaller targets.

 

[Jerakeen]

Thanks for that, I wasn't aware of that.

Following that through, say I'm taking on a Conda in both ships. In the Vulture, I do 2 x 100% damage, let's call it 200%. In the Asp, I do 2 x 66% = 133% on the mediums and 4 x 33% = 132% on the small, totalling 133% + 132% = 265% in the Asp v 200% in the Vulture.

Presumably though, a large hardpoint does more total damage and damage per second than a medium hardpoint even before you consider the scaling above?

Maths only shows part of the picture. The Vulture will stay on target much more in a dogfight that the Asp can, especially in close quarters.

I can't give any figures but i can tell you that when I was flying myb Asp (or indeed my Clipper) taking on an Elite NPC Anaconda or Python was a suicide mission for me. In the Vulture I have taken down dozens of them. I can't believe how quickly they die, and that's with just 2 large pulse lasers.

 

[DJ Interstellar]

Also, bonus question:
Does the C3 weapons get a damage INcrease against smaller ships (considering smaller guns get a DEcrease against larger ships) ?

If so, then the C3 guns will outperform the lower class weapons by a mile, particularly on smaller targets.

It actually feels like you get bonus dmg. Just a feeling though after 2 days in conflict zone. F63 Condors and Eagles drop considerably faster then anything else. Hard to measure though.

 

[sp0q]

Thanks for that, I wasn't aware of that.

Following that through, say I'm taking on a Conda in both ships. In the Vulture, I do 2 x 100% damage, let's call it 200%. In the Asp, I do 2 x 66% = 133% on the mediums and 4 x 33% = 132% on the small, totalling 133% + 132% = 265% in the Asp v 200% in the Vulture.

Presumably though, a large hardpoint does more total damage and damage per second than a medium hardpoint even before you consider the scaling above?

That's some really weird math to be honest : P Let's say that large weapons deal 3dmg, medium - 2 and consequently: small - 1. Now suppose you are figting a large ship.

The Vulture will deal full dmg so it's 2x3dmg = 6dmg.

The Asp will deal 2x0,66x2 + 4x0,33x1 = 2,64 + 1,32 = 3,96dmg.

You'd obviously have to use real dps values to make it even half meaningful.

 

[Red Fox Four]

Even if the C3 guns on the Vulture only have a moderate increase in actual damage value over the C2 and C1 on the Asp it will still outdamage the Asp (at least on large targets).

If there is no damage bonus to large weapons against smaller targets, then the Asp will have no damage reduction against those, and depending on actual damage values the Asp might be on par, or even better, than the Vulture against the smaller targets.

But as sp0q pointed out... it all depends on the actual damage values/numbers of the different size weapons.

 

[micky1up]

look its simples i fitted 2 large gimballed pulse laser to my vulture and i can take out a condas powerplant in arround 1min or fighting with 4 pips in weapons the pulses fire near continuously it take's longer in an asp and cobra to do the same.

 

[marcus10]

I'm not sure this math is right... can you go by just %?

For example, by using values (just made up values for same of argument)

C3 weapon does 200 damage
C2 weapon does 100 damage
C1 weapon does 50 damage

So Vulture
200 dmg * 2 guns = 400 damage

Asp
100 dmg x 0,66 (reduction) = 66 per gun * 2 guns = 132
50 dmg x 0,33 (reduction) = 16,5 per gun * 4 guns = 66
132 dmg + 66 dmg = 198 damage

So in this case, if the C3 weapons do more damage, in value, the Vulture will easily outdamage the Asp (due to the already lower damage numbers being further reduced when fired on larger ships).

If all guns do same damage, e.g 100.
Vulture = 2 * 100 = 200 dmg
Asp = (2 * (100 * 0,66)) + (4 * (100 * 0,33)) = 264 dmg

So there are 2 questions really.
1) Does all guns do same damage?
2) If not, then what are the damage numbers for C3 vs C2 and C1 guns (average).

Also, bonus question:
Does the C3 weapons get a damage INcrease against smaller ships (considering smaller guns get a DEcrease against larger ships) ?

If so, then the C3 guns will outperform the lower class weapons by a mile, particularly on smaller targets.

I agree these are the real questions here - I'd love to know if anyone knows the answer to this. That's was I was trying to get at with the percentages above. If all guns do the same damage then regardless of scaling the Asp does more damage. If a large hardpoint pulse does double the damage of a medium hardpoint pulse (ignoring the effects of any scaling at this point) then the Vulture does more damage .

If the Vulture does more damage, then I'll be trading in my Asp tonight!

 

[Rubbernuke]

The only real advantage the Asp has is the variety of weapons and modules it can carry. On naked firepower the Vultures brute force wins.

 

[Red Fox Four]

The only real advantage the Asp has is the variety of weapons and modules it can carry. On naked firepower the Vultures brute force wins.

Well.. Vulture bonuses over Asp
+ Firepower
+ Maneuverability
+ Cost (being cheaper)
+ Smaller target / profile

The Asp instead have
+ More cargo
+ More jumprange
+ More module slots for variety (ie. can be fitted for non-combat as well, such as cargo for trading, exploration modules, mining etc)

 

[Nid]

I've switched from a combat asp to a vulture this week-end and the difference in firepower is huge, especially against big ships they just get melted. In CZs the difference is incredible in terms of efficiency.

The only real downside is power management, the asp is a powerhouse in that regard, and you could fit about anything on an A rated one. On the vulture things are a bit trickier and you're forced to make concessions. No dual gimballed C3 beam lasers for you !

Having only 2 hardpoints however isn't really a big issue I think, the lasers are powerful enough not to require anything else, at least for PvE.

 

[Pyrion]

As long as you do small ships there is no noticable difference. Sideys die just as fast from the asp. But for larger ships you get that weapon malus and while an asp still has good fire power, the vulture has a lot more against lets say anacondas.

 

[bendover]

Remember the Asp is a multi-role ship is quite good at combat,trading and exploring,Vulture is Good at combat hopeless for anything else.

 

[EddyRockSteady]

From a pure firepower perspective though, doesn't the Asp win?

Nope.

Think of the Asp as a paleo pick and the Vulture as a sledgehammer and you'll understand why I say no. Also, not as easy do this in an Asp.......

[video=youtube;SF0UDBqnlCw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF0UDBqnlCw[/video]

 

[Hyperlethal]

Nope.

Think of the Asp as a paleo pick and the Vulture as a sledgehammer and you'll understand why I say no. Also, not as easy do this in an Asp.......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF0UDBqnlCw

2 fixed beams and 4 torps ok its taking about 66k off your bounty but...

 

[Red Fox Four]

Remember the Asp is a multi-role ship is quite good at combat,trading and exploring,Vulture is Good at combat hopeless for anything else.

Vulture can be good for other stuff too...

Downgrade your shield gen to class 3, and install 32 ton cargo module in Class 5 slot, and add cargo mods to your lower end slots. You can get about 38 ton cargo on the Vulture while still being combat able.

Jump range will suffer a bit, but it should still be in the 13-15LY range, depending on what other modules you installed.

My combat fitted Vulture with military grade armor (which is quite heavy) still has 13-14 LY jumprange.